Passengers handling the controls
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Many years ago in the 1960's when I was flying in the bush in Northern Ontario I used to take my two kids with me in the Beaver on floats when it was a cargo trip.
Both learned to fly the Beaver when they were still so small I had to sit them on cushions, all I had to do was follow with the rudder, when they got bigger they could fly the Beech 18 on floats before they were old enough to start to learn to drive.
If any self serving moron from the Government ever had the nerve to quote the regulations to me about letting someone fly when I was with them I would shove their regulations where they would need an anal scanner to read it.
There that settles that subject.
Chuck E.
Both learned to fly the Beaver when they were still so small I had to sit them on cushions, all I had to do was follow with the rudder, when they got bigger they could fly the Beech 18 on floats before they were old enough to start to learn to drive.
If any self serving moron from the Government ever had the nerve to quote the regulations to me about letting someone fly when I was with them I would shove their regulations where they would need an anal scanner to read it.
There that settles that subject.
Chuck E.
I agree with you, Chuck. And with Mike Cross.
I too had my first 'go' at the age of 11 in a Piper Carribean; the only point I had was that the person having their 'go' in this way can't log the time as anything other than 'passenger'.
Love the thought of a proctologist having to remove the Air Navigation Order from the head Belgranist's rectum.......
I too had my first 'go' at the age of 11 in a Piper Carribean; the only point I had was that the person having their 'go' in this way can't log the time as anything other than 'passenger'.
Love the thought of a proctologist having to remove the Air Navigation Order from the head Belgranist's rectum.......
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Dec 2003 at 03:11.
The Original Whirly
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If letting someone handle the controls counted as instruction, so, logically, would:
Explaining how the aircraft worked, while you're in flight.
Talking through a take-off, landing etc.
Suggesting an airsick passenger put their hands lightly on the stick/yoke, look out the front, and imagine they're flying (while you still fly it of course).
There may or may not be a rule, but maybe a little common sense is required here?
Explaining how the aircraft worked, while you're in flight.
Talking through a take-off, landing etc.
Suggesting an airsick passenger put their hands lightly on the stick/yoke, look out the front, and imagine they're flying (while you still fly it of course).
There may or may not be a rule, but maybe a little common sense is required here?
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This just may be in the old category of "it's fine to do it, but if there is an incident later on that flight, e.g. in the landing, in which a passenger gets hurt, and the passenger "discovers" that he can get some (or more) compensation if the flight was illegal, then he may just say something which assists his case"
Another example is where the PPL cost sharing formula is exceeded. In practice it goes on frequently and it is all but impossible to get caught - unless somebody talks. And you can be sure that a passenger will talk if there is an accident (not related to the actual/promised payment of course).
Never forget that most people, even those you consider your closest friends or relatives, will say things that will assist them if they have been injured, even if doing so drops you in the ***t. Even if the "injury" is purely financial but is substantial enough. The mere threat of a financial penalty is enough to "swing" most people.
So, personally, I play things very straight
I agree with Mike C's interpretation though; it seems to take care of itself because it is obvious that when up in the air you can teach someone to fly; it won't be of much use to them though because they can't log it. I suppose you could take somebody through the whole PPL/IR stuff and then send off to Florida to legalise it by flying the 45+35 hours at the lowest possible cost.
I wonder if somebody else can do the radio though... they would need to get the CAA radio license surely, which means passing the RT test? This IS potentially important because if you get a non-flyer to do the radio, your whole airfield will hear it and if somebody has a score to settle (pretty common among flying schools in certain locations
) they might do so...
Another example is where the PPL cost sharing formula is exceeded. In practice it goes on frequently and it is all but impossible to get caught - unless somebody talks. And you can be sure that a passenger will talk if there is an accident (not related to the actual/promised payment of course).
Never forget that most people, even those you consider your closest friends or relatives, will say things that will assist them if they have been injured, even if doing so drops you in the ***t. Even if the "injury" is purely financial but is substantial enough. The mere threat of a financial penalty is enough to "swing" most people.
So, personally, I play things very straight
I agree with Mike C's interpretation though; it seems to take care of itself because it is obvious that when up in the air you can teach someone to fly; it won't be of much use to them though because they can't log it. I suppose you could take somebody through the whole PPL/IR stuff and then send off to Florida to legalise it by flying the 45+35 hours at the lowest possible cost.
I wonder if somebody else can do the radio though... they would need to get the CAA radio license surely, which means passing the RT test? This IS potentially important because if you get a non-flyer to do the radio, your whole airfield will hear it and if somebody has a score to settle (pretty common among flying schools in certain locations
) they might do so...
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I really think we ought to be a bit cautious about subjects like this.
The traction engine movement is presently contemplating the possibility that engines might have to be fenced off from the public at rallies after well meaning club officials opened a 'dialogue' with the HSE.
When questions were asked about the use of 123.45 on the Internet, a Notam prohibiting it quickly appeared.
Why not let sleeping dogs lie?
The traction engine movement is presently contemplating the possibility that engines might have to be fenced off from the public at rallies after well meaning club officials opened a 'dialogue' with the HSE.
When questions were asked about the use of 123.45 on the Internet, a Notam prohibiting it quickly appeared.
Why not let sleeping dogs lie?
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If I'm flying with a student, then they are 'under' my RT licence, same for a solo student. Once you are no longer a 'student' you need your own licence. As a non-FI cannot 'instruct' then strictly speaking they cannot have somebody 'under' their RT licence.
It would be very hard to prove who spoke on the radio however unless it is recorded.
Given the standard of most RT it doesn't seem to matter if you have the certificate or not, it's invariably awful!! "G errr ABCD err umm inside leg measurement etc..........."
David, I can't agree with your comments. If we didn't question how and why we do certain things, then flying will remain static. How on earth could the CAA or whoever tell who handled the controls at a certain point?
Traction engines are big, noisy, dangerous things and I am in no way surprised that they may have to be fenced off. With all the whirling cogs, pistons and other small curious children mashers I'm amazed it hasn't been done already. If the Steam people had taken the lead in this sort of thing, maybe the HSE wouldn't be so draconian.
The only thing that can beat a beauracracy is to try and pre-empt them and any concerns they may have. If you can prove that you are doing everything possible they'll leave you alone. Look at the PFA for example, they took a 'sport' with a dreadful safety record and changed peoples thinking and took the lead. Look what a great organisation it is now without the Belgrano butting in every ten minutes.
Compare this to the contrasting fortunes of the gyro-copter brigade and you'll see how to do it and how not to.
It would be very hard to prove who spoke on the radio however unless it is recorded.
Given the standard of most RT it doesn't seem to matter if you have the certificate or not, it's invariably awful!! "G errr ABCD err umm inside leg measurement etc..........."
David, I can't agree with your comments. If we didn't question how and why we do certain things, then flying will remain static. How on earth could the CAA or whoever tell who handled the controls at a certain point?
Traction engines are big, noisy, dangerous things and I am in no way surprised that they may have to be fenced off. With all the whirling cogs, pistons and other small curious children mashers I'm amazed it hasn't been done already. If the Steam people had taken the lead in this sort of thing, maybe the HSE wouldn't be so draconian.
The only thing that can beat a beauracracy is to try and pre-empt them and any concerns they may have. If you can prove that you are doing everything possible they'll leave you alone. Look at the PFA for example, they took a 'sport' with a dreadful safety record and changed peoples thinking and took the lead. Look what a great organisation it is now without the Belgrano butting in every ten minutes.
Compare this to the contrasting fortunes of the gyro-copter brigade and you'll see how to do it and how not to.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 16th Dec 2003 at 19:41.
Not so N, but still FG
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Good common law instincts from FFF: the general rule still holds true that, in the UK, nothing is illegal unless there's a law saying so. You will comb the ANO and related materials in vain for anything which says that you can't let granny wiggle the stick about. Anyone daft enough to let granny try to land the thing has only themselves to blame if things go horribly wrong with insurance etc.
Slightly off thread, but I was depressed by IO540's suggestion that breaches of the rules about costs sharing are commonplace. If this is true and there really are lots of PPLs mean and stupid enough to charge people for flying, I will sign up my granny (unlicensed but enthusiastic wannabe kamikaze pilot) to be their next passenger: "here sonny, I'll take over while you count all those fivers I just gave you"
Slightly off thread, but I was depressed by IO540's suggestion that breaches of the rules about costs sharing are commonplace. If this is true and there really are lots of PPLs mean and stupid enough to charge people for flying, I will sign up my granny (unlicensed but enthusiastic wannabe kamikaze pilot) to be their next passenger: "here sonny, I'll take over while you count all those fivers I just gave you"
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On the subject of use of the radio by an unlicensed person I refer m'learned friends to Article 21(2) of the ANO which permits a person to act as a Flight Radiotelephony Operator without holding a licence in certain circumstances.
WRT teaching your granny to fly, Article 64 looks like a good one to get you on if you let her do something stupid.
Mike
WRT teaching your granny to fly, Article 64 looks like a good one to get you on if you let her do something stupid.
Mike
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David
The problem is that from time to time well-meaning people do ask the CAA for a ruling on something. Sometimes the CAA responds but if it is anything controversial it tends to stay silent. If they were more forthcoming, a lot of this speculation would not be necessary. Was 123.45 ever authorised for air-air? It is allocated to some ground units.
But no matter what, some subjects will always be debated because the legislation is a mess.
FNG
"Commonplace" as a % of total flights no, but it happens occassionally in certain circumstances where people ask a PPL to take them somewhere, most likely to an overseas destination.
Mike Cross
Do you mean 21 (2) (a) (ii) (aa)...(ee) ? That appears to say that a PPL can authorise a passenger to do the radio. However (aa) through to (ee) are ALL required but under (bb) the radio operator would be OK if assisting with "safety or navigation".
The problem is that from time to time well-meaning people do ask the CAA for a ruling on something. Sometimes the CAA responds but if it is anything controversial it tends to stay silent. If they were more forthcoming, a lot of this speculation would not be necessary. Was 123.45 ever authorised for air-air? It is allocated to some ground units.
But no matter what, some subjects will always be debated because the legislation is a mess.
FNG
"Commonplace" as a % of total flights no, but it happens occassionally in certain circumstances where people ask a PPL to take them somewhere, most likely to an overseas destination.
Mike Cross
Do you mean 21 (2) (a) (ii) (aa)...(ee) ? That appears to say that a PPL can authorise a passenger to do the radio. However (aa) through to (ee) are ALL required but under (bb) the radio operator would be OK if assisting with "safety or navigation".
If I'm flying with a student, then they are 'under' my RT licence, same for a solo student.
Art 46 (1) The radio station in an aircraft shall not be operated ... by a person duly licensed or otherwise permitted to operate the radio station under that law.
which is why Art 21(2)(a) quoted by Mike Cross is required.
There is no similar prohibition on operating the flight controls. However, 21(2)(c) allows a student undergoing dual instruction to act as pilot. Without it, the student would not be allowed to log the time.
Not so N, but still FG
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Well that one adds a layer of meaning to the term "handling pilot".
Smutty asides aside, the answer probably depends on how many hours your knees have logged on type. I assume that as a doctor you can medically certify your knees as fit for flight duties.
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PS: IO540, you said "frequent", not commonplace, apologies, but even if frequent that's still a cause for gloom about the venal naughtiness of those who thus disgrace the noble and selfless traditions of the yuk-brown folder
Smutty asides aside, the answer probably depends on how many hours your knees have logged on type. I assume that as a doctor you can medically certify your knees as fit for flight duties.
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PS: IO540, you said "frequent", not commonplace, apologies, but even if frequent that's still a cause for gloom about the venal naughtiness of those who thus disgrace the noble and selfless traditions of the yuk-brown folder
Last edited by FNG; 16th Dec 2003 at 23:02.
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On the subject of well-meaning officials asking the authorities for clarification:
The Scouts used to use volunteer PPLs/club machines for flying days, on a cost-sharing basis. Then it ocurred to someone that the pilots' activities just might be construed as 'hire or reward' flights. The Scout movement asked the CAA. The CAA could only agree that such flying might well be regarded as such a thing. One senior CAA man told me that protection of CPLs flying people for money was a factor that could not be neglected.
End of PPLs flying Scouts.
Even before that, the chap organising the whole thing in the South-East told me that my Permit Cub 'might not be seen to be as safe as a C of A machine'. No Scouts ever got to fly in this genuine warplane - and I might add that my personal score of C of A engine/engine instrument failures leading to forced landings is two, v none in several hundred hours of Permit Cub aviation.
The Scouts used to use volunteer PPLs/club machines for flying days, on a cost-sharing basis. Then it ocurred to someone that the pilots' activities just might be construed as 'hire or reward' flights. The Scout movement asked the CAA. The CAA could only agree that such flying might well be regarded as such a thing. One senior CAA man told me that protection of CPLs flying people for money was a factor that could not be neglected.
End of PPLs flying Scouts.
Even before that, the chap organising the whole thing in the South-East told me that my Permit Cub 'might not be seen to be as safe as a C of A machine'. No Scouts ever got to fly in this genuine warplane - and I might add that my personal score of C of A engine/engine instrument failures leading to forced landings is two, v none in several hundred hours of Permit Cub aviation.
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Why are you Brits so paranoid about the rules and regulations?
Here in Canada we now are blessed with " NEW " regulations called CAR's, they are so badly written no one can interpet them so maybe you guys could send your regulators over here for a copy? To many weirdly worded regulations leads to confusion and mass non compliance...so just use common sense that works every time.
Now if you want to enforce something try looking at your illegal immigration problem.
When I step off an airplane in London I think I've landed in the wrong country.
There that should start another argument.
Chuck
Here in Canada we now are blessed with " NEW " regulations called CAR's, they are so badly written no one can interpet them so maybe you guys could send your regulators over here for a copy? To many weirdly worded regulations leads to confusion and mass non compliance...so just use common sense that works every time.
Now if you want to enforce something try looking at your illegal immigration problem.
When I step off an airplane in London I think I've landed in the wrong country.
There that should start another argument.
Chuck
Are you trained & endorsed on using the bottle? If it's something you need to use in flight that would make it 'aircraft equipment'. Has it been through a CAA certification & approval process?
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So Bookworm, you add the two together and get
Unfortunately Phillip shows, if you are construed as being outside of the rules, then they'll have you if you get found out. It would all be easy if the rules were written so as to have no hidden meaning so that we would all be clear about what we can and shouldn't do, but that would make sense and we can't have any of that!
they are 'under' my RT licence
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I think all I was trying to say is that what matters is the insurance company view if there was an incident. Unless you do something truly dreadful, the worst the CAA can do is a fine. An insurance company can do something far worse, and they do it routinely (not paying out on a 3rd party claim is enough to ruin anybody's day).
So perhaps it's better to discreetly put a question to one's insurance broker, not to the CAA who most of the time don't reply at all.
Sadly, people sue very readily today. The school my kids go to is considering banning videos of certain events. It's quite ridiculous but it's the age we live in. It would be unwise to fly boy scouts for anything resembling a reward today - isn't there a rule for PPL cost sharing that the flight must not be advertised outside the club notice board?
Incidentally, I don't think a CPL is enough; you now need an AOC also. I was discussing this very topic with someone who knows the rules the other day; a CPL alone is actually pretty useless.
So perhaps it's better to discreetly put a question to one's insurance broker, not to the CAA who most of the time don't reply at all.
Sadly, people sue very readily today. The school my kids go to is considering banning videos of certain events. It's quite ridiculous but it's the age we live in. It would be unwise to fly boy scouts for anything resembling a reward today - isn't there a rule for PPL cost sharing that the flight must not be advertised outside the club notice board?
Incidentally, I don't think a CPL is enough; you now need an AOC also. I was discussing this very topic with someone who knows the rules the other day; a CPL alone is actually pretty useless.
Last edited by IO540; 16th Dec 2003 at 23:57.
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So I am confused after reading all the above in depth.
Am I allowed to let my passenger to take the controls or not?
Can't see the problem really maybe its all those trees in front of the wood.
Not being paid as an instructor, not giving instruction,
under PIC it says me.....
I have asked people to hold the controls while I looked at a map or drew a line or two, let people feel how the controls work never let them do anything over a 10 degree banked turn.
nuff said....
Would be interested in the official position from the CAA though
Am I allowed to let my passenger to take the controls or not?
Can't see the problem really maybe its all those trees in front of the wood.
Not being paid as an instructor, not giving instruction,
under PIC it says me.....
I have asked people to hold the controls while I looked at a map or drew a line or two, let people feel how the controls work never let them do anything over a 10 degree banked turn.
nuff said....
Would be interested in the official position from the CAA though
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I think we've fairly conclusively proved that nobody really knows!!
Everyone has an opinion, but an official position may be very different.
Still can't see how they would ever find out if you did let someone have a go surreptitiously.
Everyone has an opinion, but an official position may be very different.
Still can't see how they would ever find out if you did let someone have a go surreptitiously.