Passengers handling the controls
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
I've done it ever since I got my PPL; it was done to me long before I got a PPL.
I think two of my basic principles apply:
11. Thou shalt not be found out.
17. It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and the matter may never come up anyway.
I think two of my basic principles apply:
11. Thou shalt not be found out.
17. It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and the matter may never come up anyway.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,401
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Rule No 1:
Don't ask questions you may not like the answers to!
Suggest that commonsense is the only regulator here. Apart from when some !!!!!!!! wants to log hours as more than just an interested passenger..........
Don't ask questions you may not like the answers to!
Suggest that commonsense is the only regulator here. Apart from when some !!!!!!!! wants to log hours as more than just an interested passenger..........
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2001
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,121
Likes: 686
From: Twickenham, home of rugby
concerning passengers handling the controls in a light aircraft - and where to find them?
Or were you referring to the controls (which are normally mounted in front of the front seats)?
Or is it different in PFA aircraft?
The definitive answer?
SD
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Manchester, England
17. It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and the matter may never come up anyway.
Thread Starter
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Saab Dastard
By and large I was asking about the rules, I'm pretty clear on the points of both where to find the controls, and the passenger(s) most of the time.
G
G
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: formerly Sarf Lunden, now in Minne*snow*ta
I'm unable to find any ruling prohibiting a passenger having a go with the controls.
I have a feeling that it's permitted "within reason" ie the flight isn't allowed to be logged as an instructional flight, the pilot doesn't accept payment for tuition unless they have an F.I rating. The passenger doesn't operate the radio except to make a mayday call if the pilot is incapacitated.
I remember actually seeing a couple of books either in the Flying Shop catalogue or the Transair catalogue which are purely for the enthuastic passenger, this was a while ago and to be honest I've not really looked again.
As long as the pilot is in command of the aircraft at all times and the passenger is not doing anything that could endanger the safety of the aircraft or the other people in the aircraft, I think it's one of those things that the CAA will probably say "well if you don't do anythng drastically wrong, then we won't say anything".
Had I looked at the forums last week in more detail I could have asked this question as I was at the CAA on Thursday.
I have a feeling that it's permitted "within reason" ie the flight isn't allowed to be logged as an instructional flight, the pilot doesn't accept payment for tuition unless they have an F.I rating. The passenger doesn't operate the radio except to make a mayday call if the pilot is incapacitated.
I remember actually seeing a couple of books either in the Flying Shop catalogue or the Transair catalogue which are purely for the enthuastic passenger, this was a while ago and to be honest I've not really looked again.
As long as the pilot is in command of the aircraft at all times and the passenger is not doing anything that could endanger the safety of the aircraft or the other people in the aircraft, I think it's one of those things that the CAA will probably say "well if you don't do anythng drastically wrong, then we won't say anything".
Had I looked at the forums last week in more detail I could have asked this question as I was at the CAA on Thursday.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Nope, not speaking in any official professional capacity, just offering my own experience for what help it may be. I'm only authorised to speak officially on numbers 1 to 10 (and articles 1 - 39, etc etc).
12 to 16, and 18 to 365 are irrelevant for this purpose, except (since FD says) for:
14: Never trust a professional (especially a Doctor) without getting amateur input. The amateur was usually on the receiving end and has a much more direct opinion.
My younger daughter proved the validity of 14 when she was diagnosed with bone cancer in her left arm. The professionals wanted to cut it off. She argued (being somewhat sentimentally attached to that arm) and ended up at the Middlesex Hospital where they replaced the bone with titanium. She has over 90% use of the arm, can still play piano and flute, drive, etc and is working and earning instead of being a drag on the taxpayer.
12 to 16, and 18 to 365 are irrelevant for this purpose, except (since FD says) for:
14: Never trust a professional (especially a Doctor) without getting amateur input. The amateur was usually on the receiving end and has a much more direct opinion.
My younger daughter proved the validity of 14 when she was diagnosed with bone cancer in her left arm. The professionals wanted to cut it off. She argued (being somewhat sentimentally attached to that arm) and ended up at the Middlesex Hospital where they replaced the bone with titanium. She has over 90% use of the arm, can still play piano and flute, drive, etc and is working and earning instead of being a drag on the taxpayer.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Had I looked at the forums last week in more detail I could have asked this question as I was at the CAA on Thursday.
Q: Dear regulator, can I as a vanilla PPL without any instructing qualification let any passenger take control of my aircraft?
A: Dear PPL of course you can just be careful out there, and if things do go wrong just quote that you did so on my say-so.
People are trying to find reassurances where non exist.
If anyone wants to let a passenger 'have a go' then you do so at your 'peril' and if things go 't*ts up' then it is on your head.
I think that it is safe to say though that the chance that you get 'caught' by the airway police are pretty slim.
FD
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: formerly Sarf Lunden, now in Minne*snow*ta
Flyin'Dutch'
My question would have been more on what the legal situation is with regards to allowing a passenger experience for themselves the effects of the controls, providing that I'm in full command of the aircraft at all times.
I'm sure we've all done it at some stage or have had the opportunity to do so which started us off and gave us our first experience in a light aircraft.
There's no need to resort to sarcasm.
Hence the reason why I believe it's not entirely frowned upon, but as long as it's "within reason" ie the passenger is not doing anything to danger the aircraft, fellow people in the aircraft or those on the ground, and the pilot doesn't display blatant negligence
On no circumstances would I do it and if all goes t*ts up, turn around and say "well Joe Public at the CAA said it was alright to do so.
My question would have been more on what the legal situation is with regards to allowing a passenger experience for themselves the effects of the controls, providing that I'm in full command of the aircraft at all times.
I'm sure we've all done it at some stage or have had the opportunity to do so which started us off and gave us our first experience in a light aircraft.
There's no need to resort to sarcasm.
Hence the reason why I believe it's not entirely frowned upon, but as long as it's "within reason" ie the passenger is not doing anything to danger the aircraft, fellow people in the aircraft or those on the ground, and the pilot doesn't display blatant negligence
On no circumstances would I do it and if all goes t*ts up, turn around and say "well Joe Public at the CAA said it was alright to do so.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
Yea if you were to ask the CAA this question:
a) Its take 60 days for them to get around to replying, then they would apologise for the delay
b)They'd quote a snippit from the ANO stating something along the lines of
"As a PPL you are prohibited from giving flight instruction without an FI rating"
which wouldn't answer the question.
So, its an academic question really. If I teach my Mrs to handle the controls, so if I cark it at the helm, she may stand a surviving, then thats what I would do.....
EA
a) Its take 60 days for them to get around to replying, then they would apologise for the delay
b)They'd quote a snippit from the ANO stating something along the lines of
"As a PPL you are prohibited from giving flight instruction without an FI rating"
which wouldn't answer the question.
So, its an academic question really. If I teach my Mrs to handle the controls, so if I cark it at the helm, she may stand a surviving, then thats what I would do.....
EA
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Harpenden
Surely the relevant phrasing is
No person may operate the controls of an aeroplane who does not have an appropriate licence and rating except in the course of receiving flight instruction or at the direction of the pilot in charge.
And.
Any crew member or passenger must obey any reasonable order or instruction from the pilot in charge.
No I don'y know the chapter numbers.
I reckon it's okay to order your passenger to hold the controls. If they do it wothout permission, have them arrested.
No person may operate the controls of an aeroplane who does not have an appropriate licence and rating except in the course of receiving flight instruction or at the direction of the pilot in charge.
And.
Any crew member or passenger must obey any reasonable order or instruction from the pilot in charge.
No I don'y know the chapter numbers.
I reckon it's okay to order your passenger to hold the controls. If they do it wothout permission, have them arrested.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
DJK,
May be it would be easy to liken the scenario that people want an answer for to the following:
Imagine your wife is 39 weeks pregnant and you think you may have to take her to hospital and you think you may well not make it if you stick to the speed limit.
Do you think you can find any copper/judge to give you carte blanche for breaking the speed limit if you ring them and ask?
Methinks not.
FD
May be it would be easy to liken the scenario that people want an answer for to the following:
Imagine your wife is 39 weeks pregnant and you think you may have to take her to hospital and you think you may well not make it if you stick to the speed limit.
Do you think you can find any copper/judge to give you carte blanche for breaking the speed limit if you ring them and ask?
Methinks not.
FD
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
Imagine your wife is 39 weeks pregnant and you think you may have to take her to hospital and you think you may well not make it if you stick to the speed limit.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
I can't believe you people are still agonizing over such a stupid subject.
What do they put in your water over there?
On Dec. 16 at 00:34 I posted my thoughts on this subject, for those who are so slaved to rules and regulations, please go back and read what should be done with the rules when they are being quoted to cover this subject.
Chuck
What do they put in your water over there?
On Dec. 16 at 00:34 I posted my thoughts on this subject, for those who are so slaved to rules and regulations, please go back and read what should be done with the rules when they are being quoted to cover this subject.
Chuck
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I couldn't agree more with you Chuck. I have never seen such a load of tosh in my entire life!
If you want to give your passenger a go on the controls then it is your responsibility to ensure that nothing happens to the aircraft. I have always given my passengers a chance to handle the aircraft and there a few of them that have been on done a PPL.
I went onto learn to fly after I was given a go at the controls and became instantly hooked.
It is little wonder that our sport is a dying one, we are killing it from within by a stupid fascination for rules and making up new ones to make our lives more difficult when none can be found to cater for the latest fixation!
The next thing we will be asking is for clarification on the rules of using a stepladder to fill a 152 or climbing on the strut steps, after all you might fall off the strut and land on your passenger maybe even forcing you to call a Mayday on the way down. How negligent would that be......
If you want to give your passenger a go on the controls then it is your responsibility to ensure that nothing happens to the aircraft. I have always given my passengers a chance to handle the aircraft and there a few of them that have been on done a PPL.
I went onto learn to fly after I was given a go at the controls and became instantly hooked.
It is little wonder that our sport is a dying one, we are killing it from within by a stupid fascination for rules and making up new ones to make our lives more difficult when none can be found to cater for the latest fixation!
The next thing we will be asking is for clarification on the rules of using a stepladder to fill a 152 or climbing on the strut steps, after all you might fall off the strut and land on your passenger maybe even forcing you to call a Mayday on the way down. How negligent would that be......
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
Whatever the rights and wrongs of letting a passenger have a go at the controls, check this accident report.
Nothing in there to say if the passenger WAS having a go or not, but the most likely scenario the AAIB can come up with is a control input which led P1 (a qualified pilot, like all of us) to react in such a manner as to lead to the failure of a wing.
Now - still want to let your rellies have a go ?
Nothing in there to say if the passenger WAS having a go or not, but the most likely scenario the AAIB can come up with is a control input which led P1 (a qualified pilot, like all of us) to react in such a manner as to lead to the failure of a wing.
Now - still want to let your rellies have a go ?