When is a/g no longer safe?
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In the situation I described where I got cut up repeatedly I was definitely not flying 2 miles extra downwind.
Normally I fly downwind to a point where the end of the runway is about 45 degrees behind me; this is pretty standard. This places one maybe 1 mile past the end of the runway.
If I was to fly a tight circuit such as some describe, I would need to do a virtual glide approach (assuming 1000ft agl circuit height) from the end of the downwind leg. This means cutting the engine almost completely - not exactly a good idea but probably acceptable to some people who don't pay for their own maintenance
There is no point in flying such tight circuits; in a faster plane they require very good judgement and leave little margin for adjusting for wind etc.
It is much safer to operate an aircraft such that there is always leeway; e.g. a reasonable final leg allows you to get it set up and trimmed exactly right. And that's before one gets to right-hand circuits - the pilot has little or no visibility.
I've seen aerobatic pilots fly incredibly tight circuits but they've had the training, and their planes can land in 100-200m.
Normally I fly downwind to a point where the end of the runway is about 45 degrees behind me; this is pretty standard. This places one maybe 1 mile past the end of the runway.
If I was to fly a tight circuit such as some describe, I would need to do a virtual glide approach (assuming 1000ft agl circuit height) from the end of the downwind leg. This means cutting the engine almost completely - not exactly a good idea but probably acceptable to some people who don't pay for their own maintenance
There is no point in flying such tight circuits; in a faster plane they require very good judgement and leave little margin for adjusting for wind etc. It is much safer to operate an aircraft such that there is always leeway; e.g. a reasonable final leg allows you to get it set up and trimmed exactly right. And that's before one gets to right-hand circuits - the pilot has little or no visibility.
I've seen aerobatic pilots fly incredibly tight circuits but they've had the training, and their planes can land in 100-200m.
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F3G
Sure that helps a bit, as does rolling aggressively alternatively left to right (if too high on final). But that's not the #1 problem - it is simply safer to use up a bit more room and set up the final approach from further back. Especially if it's a RH circuit.
Sure that helps a bit, as does rolling aggressively alternatively left to right (if too high on final). But that's not the #1 problem - it is simply safer to use up a bit more room and set up the final approach from further back. Especially if it's a RH circuit.
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Flying for Fun,
No need for chat on the R/T, the C150 was way behind me, and with no confliction.
I'm a great believer in keeping R/T to a minimum, especially when it's not needed. At an uncontrolled airfield, it gets a bit like CB radio. "Two sugars in my tea, Eric"
On a frequency with AFIS in that situation, I'd be tempted to say something along the lines of "G-CD, could I ask the C150 on downwind if he'd mind me cutting inside him." You say the airfield had A/G, in which case I'd either use similar phrasing as with AFIS, or else just ask the pilot directly, depending on how "involved" the A/G station liked to be at the airfield in question.
I'm a great believer in keeping R/T to a minimum, especially when it's not needed. At an uncontrolled airfield, it gets a bit like CB radio. "Two sugars in my tea, Eric"
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Good point, Zlin. I think that, in general, if the radio is too busy to have a polite word with the person you're going to cut inside, then the circuit is probably too busy to cut inside him safely - but of course each case is different. If you were in front of the guy to start with, though, then it's not appropriate at all.
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I'm slightly at a loss as to why some folk on this thread are referring to flying a circuit inside of a C152 as "cutting up".
"Cutting up" is in my book inconsiderate action occurring on final approach.
I regularly fly (from the same airfield as Cubdriver) and I choose to fly my circuit inside other faster, wider-circuit aircraft because
a) if I follow them, I will most likely at my speed hold up a big queue behing me
b) many of the other circuit traffic actually flies outside of the ATZ
c) I am not legally permitted to fly over the built-up areas in these wider circuits that they are flying
d) if my old engine fails, I want to land back on the field.
It is my opinion that conducting circuit training outside the ATZ is dangerous and exhibits poor airmanship. The circular ATZ is circular for a reason: in the old days of circular aerodromes, circuits were conducted into wind,; the ATZ (or training area) reflected this. If the training establishments of today wish to conduct larger rectangular "circuits" due to changes in circuit custom & practice, they should apply for a larger chunk of "controlled" airspace, instead of blundering outside the ATZ where they might conflict with traffic in the open FIR.
So I fly a tighter circuit than most, but do not consider myself to be "cutting up" anyone, and indeed the pilots of the other circuit traffic have never had any problem with that.
Ludwig, if said airfield were to have AFIS, nothing would change, due to the nature of the limits of the responsibility of the FISO, who cannot instruct aircraft "beyond the [runway] holding point and in the case of aircraft landing, not until the landing roll is completed" (SSL22, CAP410, CAP413, CAP452 refer).
I also disagree with your statement "How the hell the pupils ever manage at a controlled airfield is beyond me!". The students at your quoted airfield do not have many problems at controlled airports...usually it is visitors who do not understand the differences between ATC, FIS and ATC who are perplexed by the lack of clearances and instructions offerred!
Happy flying, everyone, and a Merry Christmas to all.
"Cutting up" is in my book inconsiderate action occurring on final approach.
I regularly fly (from the same airfield as Cubdriver) and I choose to fly my circuit inside other faster, wider-circuit aircraft because
a) if I follow them, I will most likely at my speed hold up a big queue behing me
b) many of the other circuit traffic actually flies outside of the ATZ
c) I am not legally permitted to fly over the built-up areas in these wider circuits that they are flying
d) if my old engine fails, I want to land back on the field.
It is my opinion that conducting circuit training outside the ATZ is dangerous and exhibits poor airmanship. The circular ATZ is circular for a reason: in the old days of circular aerodromes, circuits were conducted into wind,; the ATZ (or training area) reflected this. If the training establishments of today wish to conduct larger rectangular "circuits" due to changes in circuit custom & practice, they should apply for a larger chunk of "controlled" airspace, instead of blundering outside the ATZ where they might conflict with traffic in the open FIR.
So I fly a tighter circuit than most, but do not consider myself to be "cutting up" anyone, and indeed the pilots of the other circuit traffic have never had any problem with that.
Ludwig, if said airfield were to have AFIS, nothing would change, due to the nature of the limits of the responsibility of the FISO, who cannot instruct aircraft "beyond the [runway] holding point and in the case of aircraft landing, not until the landing roll is completed" (SSL22, CAP410, CAP413, CAP452 refer).
I also disagree with your statement "How the hell the pupils ever manage at a controlled airfield is beyond me!". The students at your quoted airfield do not have many problems at controlled airports...usually it is visitors who do not understand the differences between ATC, FIS and ATC who are perplexed by the lack of clearances and instructions offerred!
Happy flying, everyone, and a Merry Christmas to all.
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Funnily enough it happened to me yesterday.
Robin and I were on our way back to Popham from Old Warden in the Luscombe and joined downwind.
We had something Cubbish flying closer in than us and a Beagle Pup outside us, both ahead of us and so called downwind with contact two ahead.
Having turned and called final we saw a microfright inside us who then slotted in between us and the one in front. Normally this would not cause us any great aggro but............
Final was in to a very low sun and although we could see him when he was inside us the forward vis was appalling so we couldn't see him once he got in front. It must have been just the same for him.
When we got close to the ground there he was on the runway where he fannied around for long enough to cause us to go around, although if he'd got his act together he could have cleared in time.
No objection to someone slotting in in front of us but on this occaison there was insufficient room for him in the gap he was squeezing in to and the viz was poor enough to give us a very reall worry that we might catch him up without seeing him (slow as we are).
He'd had plenty of time while downwind to eyeball the traffic ahead and it would have been a lot safer either to go behind us if there was a gap or climb and overshoot to the dead side if there was not.
This procedure is not one I've seen in any textbooks. If you have two circuits and are downwind on the innner one then you have traffic outside you which is going to turn across your front and then turn again on to final. If you can't find a gap in the stream to slot into then perhaps an early decision to climb and overshoot on base is called for.
In this particular case it was RH circuits . Rule 17 (6)(b) prohibits anyone from joining final in front of an aircraft already on final, but where should he go?
You're in the microlight on right base. Ahead of you and to your left is an aircraft crossing left to right who is already on final and who therefore has right of way.
Behind him there are other aircraft on base and downwind which are to your left and behind you so you can't turn left. Turning right will send you the wrong way on the live side of the circuit so you've got yourself into a hole. If you spotted the problem while downwind at circuit height you could climb, turn base and pass above circuit height over the finals traffic to the deadside in relative safety. If however you've been descending on base the traffic with right of way is probably at the same level or above you so you're stuffed.
Hence the illegal turn on to final in front of the other traffic.
Oh and before you ask a/g was being operated by the very competent Chris Thompson and an AFIS would not have made any difference. If we had been under an ATC service the cut in would have been illegal on two counts.
Mike
Robin and I were on our way back to Popham from Old Warden in the Luscombe and joined downwind.
We had something Cubbish flying closer in than us and a Beagle Pup outside us, both ahead of us and so called downwind with contact two ahead.
Having turned and called final we saw a microfright inside us who then slotted in between us and the one in front. Normally this would not cause us any great aggro but............
Final was in to a very low sun and although we could see him when he was inside us the forward vis was appalling so we couldn't see him once he got in front. It must have been just the same for him.
When we got close to the ground there he was on the runway where he fannied around for long enough to cause us to go around, although if he'd got his act together he could have cleared in time.
No objection to someone slotting in in front of us but on this occaison there was insufficient room for him in the gap he was squeezing in to and the viz was poor enough to give us a very reall worry that we might catch him up without seeing him (slow as we are).
He'd had plenty of time while downwind to eyeball the traffic ahead and it would have been a lot safer either to go behind us if there was a gap or climb and overshoot to the dead side if there was not.
This procedure is not one I've seen in any textbooks. If you have two circuits and are downwind on the innner one then you have traffic outside you which is going to turn across your front and then turn again on to final. If you can't find a gap in the stream to slot into then perhaps an early decision to climb and overshoot on base is called for.
In this particular case it was RH circuits . Rule 17 (6)(b) prohibits anyone from joining final in front of an aircraft already on final, but where should he go?
You're in the microlight on right base. Ahead of you and to your left is an aircraft crossing left to right who is already on final and who therefore has right of way.
Behind him there are other aircraft on base and downwind which are to your left and behind you so you can't turn left. Turning right will send you the wrong way on the live side of the circuit so you've got yourself into a hole. If you spotted the problem while downwind at circuit height you could climb, turn base and pass above circuit height over the finals traffic to the deadside in relative safety. If however you've been descending on base the traffic with right of way is probably at the same level or above you so you're stuffed.
Hence the illegal turn on to final in front of the other traffic.
Oh and before you ask a/g was being operated by the very competent Chris Thompson and an AFIS would not have made any difference. If we had been under an ATC service the cut in would have been illegal on two counts.
Mike
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Tinstaafl
Sorry for the delay in response, but you have missed my point. Of course it is the pilots responsibility to operate the aircraft safety and within the rules of the air and that includes the use of standard CAP 413 phrasology and r/t discipline. That may include advice to ATC that you are unable to comply with their request/instruction or clearance. But you seem to advocate this air to air comms as a routine procedure which it should not be where a service is provided, perhaps we can agree on that point.
I acknowledged, if circumstances warrant, air to air comms are a reasonable course of action. But I say again, when operating with an AFIS or ATC services in an ATZ, except in the most exceptional of circumstances all calls should be from/to the tower. If you have ever been in a busy tower working a frequency it is possible to miss a call, particularly a non-standard call, that in itself can result in a dangerous situation developing and I am sure you wouldn't want that.
Wide-Body
On the point about the use of MOR, the CAA mandatory occurrence reporting (CAP 382 avbl on the CAA Pubs.website by the way )scheme is a formal process which will not get diluted by the amount of reports. In the context of the orignal posting, it should highlight to the CAA or the aerodrome operator a particular problem, and thats what it was designed for.
Never worry about filing one, it will be classified by the authority and investigated further if worthy or closed on receipt if not. In airline operations all aircrew, including cabin crew and ground engineers are positively encouraged to file when necessary. It is considered a failing in any flight ops organisation if their crews fail to file MOR's, hence the reason the OR criteria specify those events or occurences as being 'mandatory' reports. As a pilot or engineer it places an onus on you to do so.
Sorry for the delay in response, but you have missed my point. Of course it is the pilots responsibility to operate the aircraft safety and within the rules of the air and that includes the use of standard CAP 413 phrasology and r/t discipline. That may include advice to ATC that you are unable to comply with their request/instruction or clearance. But you seem to advocate this air to air comms as a routine procedure which it should not be where a service is provided, perhaps we can agree on that point.
I acknowledged, if circumstances warrant, air to air comms are a reasonable course of action. But I say again, when operating with an AFIS or ATC services in an ATZ, except in the most exceptional of circumstances all calls should be from/to the tower. If you have ever been in a busy tower working a frequency it is possible to miss a call, particularly a non-standard call, that in itself can result in a dangerous situation developing and I am sure you wouldn't want that.
Wide-Body
On the point about the use of MOR, the CAA mandatory occurrence reporting (CAP 382 avbl on the CAA Pubs.website by the way )scheme is a formal process which will not get diluted by the amount of reports. In the context of the orignal posting, it should highlight to the CAA or the aerodrome operator a particular problem, and thats what it was designed for.
Never worry about filing one, it will be classified by the authority and investigated further if worthy or closed on receipt if not. In airline operations all aircrew, including cabin crew and ground engineers are positively encouraged to file when necessary. It is considered a failing in any flight ops organisation if their crews fail to file MOR's, hence the reason the OR criteria specify those events or occurences as being 'mandatory' reports. As a pilot or engineer it places an onus on you to do so.
Last edited by no sig; 27th Dec 2003 at 01:22.
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Ludwig and Bose X
I'll be moving to the midlands in February and intend to move my aircraft to a more local airfield and am now wondering which midlands airport you are speaking of. If you are not prepared to put the name on the forum would you pm me the info
Thanks
I'll be moving to the midlands in February and intend to move my aircraft to a more local airfield and am now wondering which midlands airport you are speaking of. If you are not prepared to put the name on the forum would you pm me the info
Thanks
