Microlites? Aye or Nae?
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Microlites? Aye or Nae?
Are there any microlite pilots out there?
I am keen on taking up flying as a hobbie but unfortunately I'm not the wealthiest guy around so am put off by the "£100 an hour" Cessna 172 rates at my local airport.
I have been advised to look into obtaining a Microlite license, as this can be considerably cheaper, approx £30 an hour.
What are people's views on the differences between microlites and Cessnas etc? No rude comments about flying lawnmower engines please, have heard them all before.
I am keen on taking up flying as a hobbie but unfortunately I'm not the wealthiest guy around so am put off by the "£100 an hour" Cessna 172 rates at my local airport.
I have been advised to look into obtaining a Microlite license, as this can be considerably cheaper, approx £30 an hour.
What are people's views on the differences between microlites and Cessnas etc? No rude comments about flying lawnmower engines please, have heard them all before.
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Don't have very much experience of flex-wings (only had a couple of rides) but much prefer so-called "proper" aeroplanes.
If I was in your position I would give it a go.....
Better than not flying at all, innit?
If I was in your position I would give it a go.....
Better than not flying at all, innit?
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I fly both microlights and "proper" aeroplanes and to be honest you can't beat the sheer fun and simplicity of microlight flying.
I think that when learning microlight pilots tend to have a much better feel for the aircraft and are better at looking outside (there are few instruments to become fixated on!).
If you want to go touring especially when the weather is marginal a microlight is no use ( I am sure there will be protestations about the new high speed glass ships, but they all have the same weight problems, it is passengers versus fuel) as they are not that fast and have limited range. They also don't have many instruments (due to the weight) and operate on a permit to fly, which prevents overflight of town etc.
But if money is tight and you want to have fun flying, microlights are unbeatable.
I think that when learning microlight pilots tend to have a much better feel for the aircraft and are better at looking outside (there are few instruments to become fixated on!).
If you want to go touring especially when the weather is marginal a microlight is no use ( I am sure there will be protestations about the new high speed glass ships, but they all have the same weight problems, it is passengers versus fuel) as they are not that fast and have limited range. They also don't have many instruments (due to the weight) and operate on a permit to fly, which prevents overflight of town etc.
But if money is tight and you want to have fun flying, microlights are unbeatable.
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But if money is tight and you want to have fun flying, microlights are unbeatable.
Last edited by Evo; 17th Nov 2003 at 21:15.
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Having problems replying from here but my advice would be to go for it Flyboy. I warn you though, once bitten thoroughly smitten.
I fly both and there is no doubt that my microlight (Shadow) is value for buck in every sense. A tourer it ain't because with 2 up and a toothbrush each, I'm limited to a couple of hours at about 70-75 knots. (Mind you, my bladder's probably about the same endurance too these days!). I understand you can now hire club aircraft once you qualify too so it won't be the fait accompli I faced 5 years ago in having to buy my own aircraft.
A good three axis example is reasonably good value for money and cheapish to run on 12-15 litres (Mogas/Avgas) an hour, good hangarage rates for wings folded, fairly expensive Insurance premiums and easy, lowish cost maintenance. Most are two stroke and it is highly advisable not to skimp on top end decokes and routine maintenance. Synthetic oils are very good these days (TTS) and quite expensive but at 50:1 mix, not too onerous.
I won't quote figures here because they vary so much depending on model etc but if you Email me I'll fill in any blanks for you. Everything is relative of course but for me the biggest shock is having to look through the Spamcan "letterbox" after flying the Shadow with it's spectacular all round viz.
Permit renewal is relatively straightforward and the BMAA and PFA are terrific on advice and paperwork (lots of it !)
I fly both and there is no doubt that my microlight (Shadow) is value for buck in every sense. A tourer it ain't because with 2 up and a toothbrush each, I'm limited to a couple of hours at about 70-75 knots. (Mind you, my bladder's probably about the same endurance too these days!). I understand you can now hire club aircraft once you qualify too so it won't be the fait accompli I faced 5 years ago in having to buy my own aircraft.
A good three axis example is reasonably good value for money and cheapish to run on 12-15 litres (Mogas/Avgas) an hour, good hangarage rates for wings folded, fairly expensive Insurance premiums and easy, lowish cost maintenance. Most are two stroke and it is highly advisable not to skimp on top end decokes and routine maintenance. Synthetic oils are very good these days (TTS) and quite expensive but at 50:1 mix, not too onerous.
I won't quote figures here because they vary so much depending on model etc but if you Email me I'll fill in any blanks for you. Everything is relative of course but for me the biggest shock is having to look through the Spamcan "letterbox" after flying the Shadow with it's spectacular all round viz.
Permit renewal is relatively straightforward and the BMAA and PFA are terrific on advice and paperwork (lots of it !)
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I think the biggest bargain in flying has to be the NPPL/PFA single seater group 'A' route.
Aircraft such as VP1's, Freds and Minors change hands for less than £4000 regularly. (sometimes much less!). For this you get a proper 4stroke VW engine for which most parts are pence and a hand built airframe built to a higher airworthiness standard than a microlight.
As a general point I have been shocked and disappointed by the standard of construction of many microlights. There is an X'Air based at my field - the guy paid £12k for it. The combination of poor design and sloppy construction sends a chill down my spine when I look at it, yet even instructors jump in it after a casual walk around - they just don't seem to care. I know my PFA inspector would pick up on many defects in this particular aircraft. My point is it's still 12 grand which is a lot of money for so say 'cheap flying'. You could get a lovely PFA aircraft for this amount, offering better performance, enhanced reliability and access to many more airfields.
The fact is PFA 'a' aircraft often are great value because many of the people who would want to fly them can't because they don't have the licence to do so. BUT with the new NPPL it's all changed - so go for it.
OK rant over and apologies to the many microlight fliers on this forum - it's not aimed at the notion of cheap flying, I just think in many cases your 'cheap' flying costs more than my 'cheap' flying that's all, and I wanted to say something!
Cordially
Kingy
Aircraft such as VP1's, Freds and Minors change hands for less than £4000 regularly. (sometimes much less!). For this you get a proper 4stroke VW engine for which most parts are pence and a hand built airframe built to a higher airworthiness standard than a microlight.
As a general point I have been shocked and disappointed by the standard of construction of many microlights. There is an X'Air based at my field - the guy paid £12k for it. The combination of poor design and sloppy construction sends a chill down my spine when I look at it, yet even instructors jump in it after a casual walk around - they just don't seem to care. I know my PFA inspector would pick up on many defects in this particular aircraft. My point is it's still 12 grand which is a lot of money for so say 'cheap flying'. You could get a lovely PFA aircraft for this amount, offering better performance, enhanced reliability and access to many more airfields.
The fact is PFA 'a' aircraft often are great value because many of the people who would want to fly them can't because they don't have the licence to do so. BUT with the new NPPL it's all changed - so go for it.
OK rant over and apologies to the many microlight fliers on this forum - it's not aimed at the notion of cheap flying, I just think in many cases your 'cheap' flying costs more than my 'cheap' flying that's all, and I wanted to say something!
Cordially
Kingy
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FlyboyBen,
You should be able to save substantially on training costs, with the big potential saving being the small number of hours required to obtain a licence. You can get a restricted microlight licence with only 15 hours and a full one with 25, though of course these are minima and your mileage may vary as the Americans say.
The NPPL microlight licence will let you fly outside the UK whereas the NPPL SEP one won't (the flying world is full of such logic) so if you're interested in foreign touring the PFA/NPPL route won't work. The PFA/JAR PPL will, but then you're looking at at least 45 hours in that £100/hr Cessna.
As to the point about performance and range, then you get the speed that you pay for as with most things. My microlight cruises at 115kts which is not exactly a blistering pace but is enough to have done weekend trips to places like La Rochelle, Mulhouse etc. Endurance-wise, the seven hours it can manage is more than my bladder can. Weight is an issue, and with full tanks I have to leave one passenger seat empty. Exactly as I had to do at the weekend when I flew an SR20 to Galway.
The microlight concerned isn't cheap, and it's true to say that in anything in the really low price range you'll be doing more like 50 or 60 knots, but if you just want to experience the pleasure of getting into the air on a tight budget then microlights are a good place to start. There is quite an active microlighting community in the UK too, so there are always plenty of opportunities to go meet up with like-minded people at fly-ins and the like.
You should be able to save substantially on training costs, with the big potential saving being the small number of hours required to obtain a licence. You can get a restricted microlight licence with only 15 hours and a full one with 25, though of course these are minima and your mileage may vary as the Americans say.
The NPPL microlight licence will let you fly outside the UK whereas the NPPL SEP one won't (the flying world is full of such logic) so if you're interested in foreign touring the PFA/NPPL route won't work. The PFA/JAR PPL will, but then you're looking at at least 45 hours in that £100/hr Cessna.
As to the point about performance and range, then you get the speed that you pay for as with most things. My microlight cruises at 115kts which is not exactly a blistering pace but is enough to have done weekend trips to places like La Rochelle, Mulhouse etc. Endurance-wise, the seven hours it can manage is more than my bladder can. Weight is an issue, and with full tanks I have to leave one passenger seat empty. Exactly as I had to do at the weekend when I flew an SR20 to Galway.
The microlight concerned isn't cheap, and it's true to say that in anything in the really low price range you'll be doing more like 50 or 60 knots, but if you just want to experience the pleasure of getting into the air on a tight budget then microlights are a good place to start. There is quite an active microlighting community in the UK too, so there are always plenty of opportunities to go meet up with like-minded people at fly-ins and the like.
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I am in a group of local microlight pilots that recently been established.
Of the 20 members, 9 have migrated from GA.
You can't over fly large towns, you can't fly IMC, you won't get there particularly fast... but you will love the view.
As said above, you can now hire microlights too. Its relatively new so not many places do it and you can't carry passengers. As demand increases, so will the amount of sites hiring and it is hoped the CAA will relax the no passenger restriction once a bit of form has been established.
I think the big clincher is that you will probably fly 50+ hours in a microlight or PFA. The majority of GA pilots rent and fly circa 20 hours pa. The 50 hours microlight will be cheaper than 20 hours GA.
Kingy, the reliability story goes both ways. Chap I share a farm strip with said on Saturday "I must change those crank shells this winter. Meant to do it last winter". He flies a PFA.
I have mates that I can blag rides with, that cover most of the options, and all it costs me is a flight in a flex wing every now and then.
Of the 20 members, 9 have migrated from GA.
You can't over fly large towns, you can't fly IMC, you won't get there particularly fast... but you will love the view.
As said above, you can now hire microlights too. Its relatively new so not many places do it and you can't carry passengers. As demand increases, so will the amount of sites hiring and it is hoped the CAA will relax the no passenger restriction once a bit of form has been established.
I think the big clincher is that you will probably fly 50+ hours in a microlight or PFA. The majority of GA pilots rent and fly circa 20 hours pa. The 50 hours microlight will be cheaper than 20 hours GA.
Kingy, the reliability story goes both ways. Chap I share a farm strip with said on Saturday "I must change those crank shells this winter. Meant to do it last winter". He flies a PFA.
I have mates that I can blag rides with, that cover most of the options, and all it costs me is a flight in a flex wing every now and then.
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Quick query for Fly Stimulator. What kind of microlight do you fly that cruises at 115Kts. Most things with a Lycoming 235 on the front seem to cruise at 90-100 so 115 is a bit of a step change. I'm intrigued.
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Not sure where 7 hours comes from, the one I fly with 2 bodies is only capable of carrying one hour of fuel!!! With just me in it around 4 hours.
I do recall the total loss of a Sywell based CT recently by an airline captain who thought it had a better range than it actually has.............
Not wanting to start a debate.
The CT is a nice aircraft put for £40 odd thousand, it is a lot of money for a a "limited" aircraft. That sort of money gets you a group A aircraft with the same performance.
For cheap fun ML flying, AX2000, AX3, Thruster etc. are the fun machines, cheap and reliable. Or weight shift which comes even cheaper in a lot of cases!
Another point worth noting is that with the NPPL, your microlight experiance is now accepted in converting to a group A. You only have to do sufficient training to pass the skills test to go from NPPL ML to NPPL SEP and pass the JAR exams.
I do recall the total loss of a Sywell based CT recently by an airline captain who thought it had a better range than it actually has.............
Not wanting to start a debate.
The CT is a nice aircraft put for £40 odd thousand, it is a lot of money for a a "limited" aircraft. That sort of money gets you a group A aircraft with the same performance.
For cheap fun ML flying, AX2000, AX3, Thruster etc. are the fun machines, cheap and reliable. Or weight shift which comes even cheaper in a lot of cases!
Another point worth noting is that with the NPPL, your microlight experiance is now accepted in converting to a group A. You only have to do sufficient training to pass the skills test to go from NPPL ML to NPPL SEP and pass the JAR exams.
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All is now clear and a very smart piece of kit. I'm glad the loonies at Redhill didn't kill your enjoyment. Did they ever find the culprits?
The only problem for me would be that "Madam" and I would only leave 15 kgs for fuel and a toothbrush. The 450kgs limit is a bit restrictive isn't it? I flew a Tecnam Golf in New Zealand earlier in the year and it was being operated as an "Advanced microlight" at 554Kgs max AUW. This gave room for full tanks, myself and a very pretty instructor. Apparently 30 have been sold and they are operating them at $NZ 60 per hour or about £25.00 per hour. Lesson to be learnt perhaps by the PFA/CAA.
The only problem for me would be that "Madam" and I would only leave 15 kgs for fuel and a toothbrush. The 450kgs limit is a bit restrictive isn't it? I flew a Tecnam Golf in New Zealand earlier in the year and it was being operated as an "Advanced microlight" at 554Kgs max AUW. This gave room for full tanks, myself and a very pretty instructor. Apparently 30 have been sold and they are operating them at $NZ 60 per hour or about £25.00 per hour. Lesson to be learnt perhaps by the PFA/CAA.
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The seven hours is one-up, hence my remark "Weight is an issue, and with full tanks I have to leave one passenger seat empty." Since I'm quite light I can take 130 litres of fuel and at 18 lph that gives me 7 hours.
Top-end microlights are certainly more expensive than many second-hand A Group machines, but the running costs are much lower, and there is some appeal in having a new machine. The ability to do serious touring and yet still be able to get in and out of very short strips is what I like, but then I also have access to GA aircraft as well if I want to take passengers, go IFR in IMC etc.
If I could only fly one aircraft I'd go for a second-hand CofA machine in order to have the flexibilty to fly at night and in IMC, but at the moment I feel I have the best of both worlds.
There is a bit of a 'gotcha' here if you want to go beyond the NPPL. While you only have to do a minimum of three hours to convert from microlight to NPPL SEP you will still need to do at least 35 training hours to upgrade to a JAR PPL no matter how many microlight hours you have, unless you happened to do all your microlight NPPL training with a JAR instructor at a registered facility - fairly unlikely.
ozplane, yes, NZ is very generous with their weights! 450Kg is restrictive, but I tend to fly the microlight solo almost all the time and use GA aircraft if I have passengers.
And no, the police didn't find the culprits and didn't seem to exhibit a lot of enthusiasm for doing so either
Since I'm quite light I can take 130 litres of fuel and at 18 lph that gives me 7 hours.Top-end microlights are certainly more expensive than many second-hand A Group machines, but the running costs are much lower, and there is some appeal in having a new machine. The ability to do serious touring and yet still be able to get in and out of very short strips is what I like, but then I also have access to GA aircraft as well if I want to take passengers, go IFR in IMC etc.
If I could only fly one aircraft I'd go for a second-hand CofA machine in order to have the flexibilty to fly at night and in IMC, but at the moment I feel I have the best of both worlds.
Another point worth noting is that with the NPPL, your microlight experiance is now accepted in converting to a group A. You only have to do sufficient training to pass the skills test to go from NPPL ML to NPPL SEP and pass the JAR exams.
ozplane, yes, NZ is very generous with their weights! 450Kg is restrictive, but I tend to fly the microlight solo almost all the time and use GA aircraft if I have passengers.
And no, the police didn't find the culprits and didn't seem to exhibit a lot of enthusiasm for doing so either
Last edited by Fly Stimulator; 18th Nov 2003 at 01:58.
I fly both types of microlight, as well as the usual smattering of Group A.
For fun, give me a microlight - including the X'Air (which is kit built, so if it is badly built, that's probably down to the owner and their inspector, not the fact that it's a microlight). They are, in general low-hastle, low-cost, minimal-medical. For comfortable long-distance touring, I take my PA28. The X'Air, in my opinion is one of the most comfortable, easy-to-fly enjoy-myself-slowly aeroplanes that I know.
Fly-Stimulator's CT2K probably flies very slightly faster than my PA28-161, burning about half the fuel, and needs half the runway. On the other hand, it also cost slightly more to buy and doesn't have a roomy back-seat and large payload capacity to throw my and Mrs.Genghis' overnight bags in. You pays your money and takes your choice.
My usual microlight is a 2-seat flexwing worth about £4k, it will fly about 150nm at a steady 45 knots which is hardly sporting but gets me there eventually. On the other hand it'll use 200m grass strips with impunity, costs about £25/hr all-in, and is far more fun to throw around the sky than anything Messrs Piper and Cessna have ever produced, even a super-Cub (and that's saying something). And I can de-rig it, shove it on the trailer that came with it, and take it on holiday with me (and have!).
I'd hate to give up either, but for private flying I err on the side of group A for other than solo-touring. For cheap, pleasant local flying I'm firmly on the side of microlights. For solo touring, it's a moot point, I don't think there would be much to choose between my PA28 light aircraft and, say, a Eurostar microlight.
G
N.B. If anybody's in N.Hampshire or E.Wiltshire and interested, we've a very cheap no-profit Thruster syndicate forming. Drop me an Email and I'll give you details. For those not in the know, the Thruster TST is a 2-seat taildragger microlight with dual controls, and the glide characteristics of a brick.
For fun, give me a microlight - including the X'Air (which is kit built, so if it is badly built, that's probably down to the owner and their inspector, not the fact that it's a microlight). They are, in general low-hastle, low-cost, minimal-medical. For comfortable long-distance touring, I take my PA28. The X'Air, in my opinion is one of the most comfortable, easy-to-fly enjoy-myself-slowly aeroplanes that I know.
Fly-Stimulator's CT2K probably flies very slightly faster than my PA28-161, burning about half the fuel, and needs half the runway. On the other hand, it also cost slightly more to buy and doesn't have a roomy back-seat and large payload capacity to throw my and Mrs.Genghis' overnight bags in. You pays your money and takes your choice.
My usual microlight is a 2-seat flexwing worth about £4k, it will fly about 150nm at a steady 45 knots which is hardly sporting but gets me there eventually. On the other hand it'll use 200m grass strips with impunity, costs about £25/hr all-in, and is far more fun to throw around the sky than anything Messrs Piper and Cessna have ever produced, even a super-Cub (and that's saying something). And I can de-rig it, shove it on the trailer that came with it, and take it on holiday with me (and have!).
I'd hate to give up either, but for private flying I err on the side of group A for other than solo-touring. For cheap, pleasant local flying I'm firmly on the side of microlights. For solo touring, it's a moot point, I don't think there would be much to choose between my PA28 light aircraft and, say, a Eurostar microlight.
G
N.B. If anybody's in N.Hampshire or E.Wiltshire and interested, we've a very cheap no-profit Thruster syndicate forming. Drop me an Email and I'll give you details. For those not in the know, the Thruster TST is a 2-seat taildragger microlight with dual controls, and the glide characteristics of a brick.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 17th Nov 2003 at 23:38.
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The X'Air is lovely ML to fly, sedate and great viz.
As another not the other problem we encountered with the CT was it's weight gain! Left outside it absorbed moisture and put on so much weight that it became illegal to fly! Weeks in the hangar with dehumidifier and heaters to solve the problem.
What we need is a super ML category and the CT2 would be a cracker of a buy.
As another not the other problem we encountered with the CT was it's weight gain! Left outside it absorbed moisture and put on so much weight that it became illegal to fly! Weeks in the hangar with dehumidifier and heaters to solve the problem.
What we need is a super ML category and the CT2 would be a cracker of a buy.
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Yes Ghengis hits the nail right on the head.Flying open cockpit in a flexwing at forty knots is the buisness.Ive had a blast in a Rans(Three Axis Microlight) and thought it was good,unfortunately the vis was limited compared to the flexwing that I fly.
Personal Choice
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Barshifter
Personal Choice
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Please excuse my ignorance, but I am a bit confused as to the difference, if any, between microlights and PFA aircraft.
Given that microlights aren’t allowed to fly over built-up areas at any height (Definition? Does it incl. tiny hamlets?), at night or in IMC how are trips to La Rochelle, Mulhouse etc. possible? To answer my own question: Presumably with a great deal of planning, know-how and a bit of luck with the weather.
I was also under the impression that microlights may not fly outside the UK - but I am probably wrong there.
This “Permit to Fly” applies to what type of aircraft?
Given that microlights aren’t allowed to fly over built-up areas at any height (Definition? Does it incl. tiny hamlets?), at night or in IMC how are trips to La Rochelle, Mulhouse etc. possible? To answer my own question: Presumably with a great deal of planning, know-how and a bit of luck with the weather.
I was also under the impression that microlights may not fly outside the UK - but I am probably wrong there.
This “Permit to Fly” applies to what type of aircraft?
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Both PFA aircraft (some of which are microlights just to confuse things) and BMAA microlights operate under the Permit to Fly system. In both cases the conditions of flight are more restrictive than for C of A machines as you've noticed.
The overflight restriction applies to 'congested areas'. This is a term which generates much debate, but I don't know of anybody who avoids tiny hamlets as a result of it. A good working definition is to avoid flying over any of the yellow bits on the CAA chart. That can be a slight nuisance, but it certainly doesn't stop one from travelling.
Trips to La Rochelle etc., are in practice hardly any more difficult to achieve in permit aircraft than in CofA ones. Unless they have full instrument ratings, pilots flying CofA aircraft, while they can fly over towns, still have to remain VFR at all times and so are still totally dependent on the weather. Avoiding built-up areas in the wide open spaces of France is not usually a problem.
There is no problem with microlights flying outside the UK, in fact more than one has circled the globe. France has given blanket permission for UK Permit aircraft to operate there. Some countries haven’t, which means getting permission in advance and sometimes paying a fee. That’s a nuisance too, but again it’s not too much of a hurdle.
The overflight restriction applies to 'congested areas'. This is a term which generates much debate, but I don't know of anybody who avoids tiny hamlets as a result of it. A good working definition is to avoid flying over any of the yellow bits on the CAA chart. That can be a slight nuisance, but it certainly doesn't stop one from travelling.
Trips to La Rochelle etc., are in practice hardly any more difficult to achieve in permit aircraft than in CofA ones. Unless they have full instrument ratings, pilots flying CofA aircraft, while they can fly over towns, still have to remain VFR at all times and so are still totally dependent on the weather. Avoiding built-up areas in the wide open spaces of France is not usually a problem.
There is no problem with microlights flying outside the UK, in fact more than one has circled the globe. France has given blanket permission for UK Permit aircraft to operate there. Some countries haven’t, which means getting permission in advance and sometimes paying a fee. That’s a nuisance too, but again it’s not too much of a hurdle.