Approach - got me thinking
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Approach - got me thinking
Flying an NDB / DME procedure - but I guess it could be any other procedure. It is not uncommon for the tower to ask you to hold, expect to be cleared for the procedure at time x. Alternatively it might be XYZ is cleared for the procedure, report base turn complete, or report 4 dme. Now I have always beleived that in the event of a radio failure once you are cleared for the procedure you are expected to continue, so in the event the radio fails whilst in the hold, "expect to commence at time X" is your onward clearance. In the same way, "report 4 dme, after base turn complete", would require you to continue with the descent to visual or MAP if your radio failed before you had reached 4 dme. Views, comments??
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AIP ENR 1.1.3.2 (look at this) refers. Basically yes, if you've been given an EAT then you should continue to the holding facility at the last acknowledged level, descend in the hold (there are rules for when to do this, too!) then begin the full procedure at the last acknowledged EAT.
Tim
Tim
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The correct term is 'Expected Approach Time'. If you have been given an EAT then in the event of radio failure you can commence the approach at that time. If you are given any other form of words then I would clarify what is meant.
Once you have been cleared for the approach you are cleared for the WHOLE approach. Instructions to report base turn complete or report 4dme is ATC's way of obtaining a position report, it is not a clearance limit.
HTH
VA
Once you have been cleared for the approach you are cleared for the WHOLE approach. Instructions to report base turn complete or report 4dme is ATC's way of obtaining a position report, it is not a clearance limit.
HTH
VA
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Hi Fuji Abound,
If I were in a hold with an EFC time, ie. "Descend and maintain 3,000, enter the published NDB 5 Hold, Expect Further Clearance at 16", then I would continue holding until the further clearance was given, if it got to 16 minutes past the hour then I would question the controller who may have forgotten about me (yes it has happened a couple of flights before my flight test).
However if I had lost communication then I would cross the holding fix at time 16 to proceed outbound on the NDB 5 procedure.
A little tricky in that I haven't been cleared for the approach as such because they wanted me to hold. If whilst you're in the hold ATC would like you to continue, then they (ATC) would issue you with a procedure clearance. However when you've a radio failure, that goes by the wayside.
So in short, if you're in the hold or on the outbound etc and you have a radio failure they would expect you to commence the approach (ie, leave the holding fix at the EFC time) or if outbound simply continue the approach as if you had been cleared for it.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
If I were in a hold with an EFC time, ie. "Descend and maintain 3,000, enter the published NDB 5 Hold, Expect Further Clearance at 16", then I would continue holding until the further clearance was given, if it got to 16 minutes past the hour then I would question the controller who may have forgotten about me (yes it has happened a couple of flights before my flight test).
However if I had lost communication then I would cross the holding fix at time 16 to proceed outbound on the NDB 5 procedure.
A little tricky in that I haven't been cleared for the approach as such because they wanted me to hold. If whilst you're in the hold ATC would like you to continue, then they (ATC) would issue you with a procedure clearance. However when you've a radio failure, that goes by the wayside.
So in short, if you're in the hold or on the outbound etc and you have a radio failure they would expect you to commence the approach (ie, leave the holding fix at the EFC time) or if outbound simply continue the approach as if you had been cleared for it.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
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Oh yes squawking 7600 and the 2nd COM would also have been tried before the transceiver was pulled out... ;-)
Also if the ILS / VOR etc had voice capability, I'd try listening for instructions over the facility.
(I knew I'd be pulled over for that one!)
Also if the ILS / VOR etc had voice capability, I'd try listening for instructions over the facility.
(I knew I'd be pulled over for that one!)
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Even if the field doesn't have radar it's worth squawking 7600, as someone will probably pick you up; e.g. if you're in the hold at Oxford and lose radio communications, and squawk 7600, little alarm bells will go off at Brize who can then ring Oxford and say 'you've got a chap in the hold squawking 7600' so they can alert other traffic to get out of the way sharpish...
Tim
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From personal experience the closest I got was whilst being vectored onto an ILS. All was going well and I guess I was at right angles to the glide slope, with no indication whatsoever of any communication problems. There was light rain in IMC. I was expecting to be “called” for the final time to intercept the glide and report established. In fact the call never came. I guess I was expecting the call to such an extent and had no reason to believe that it would not be forthcoming that I continued on across the glide on my right angled trajectory, thinking to myself this is all very odd. Fortunately I quickly realised I had a problem when my request “do you want me to continue on the present heading” met with no response and I turned myself back onto the glide slope. I never quite got to the bottom of the problem because box 2 also produced no response – strange because they are of course quite separate – however after a further minute or two box 1 came alive again along the lines “we have been trying to contact you” – I wonder whether it was a ground based problem. It was interesting that when in fact the radio failed of course you are not expecting it so of course the first indication you have of the failure is perhaps when you are expecting another call or make one yourself to be met by deathly silence all of which may be sometime after the last call! Lessons learned - well if I had had a hand held radio (which I didnt) it would have been vital it was to hand because it would have been a pain finding it whilst establing on and flying the approach, indeed I suspect it would have been better to continue without (the aircraft in question did not have an autopilot), squawking 7600 was fine and obviously identified the problem.
My original question was actually provoked by a friend flying a practice approach in VMC who was use to expecting “report base turn complete” or “report five dme” followed by the usual call “of continue descent with the procedure” or something along those lines. As another has said a precaution for the controller to reference the instrument traffic to other traffic to ensure separation is maintained. When the call never came (but not because of a radio failure) he hesitated as to whether to just continue with the descent or ask for clarification. The radio was busy, he was visual anyway and so continued as cleared.
My original question was actually provoked by a friend flying a practice approach in VMC who was use to expecting “report base turn complete” or “report five dme” followed by the usual call “of continue descent with the procedure” or something along those lines. As another has said a precaution for the controller to reference the instrument traffic to other traffic to ensure separation is maintained. When the call never came (but not because of a radio failure) he hesitated as to whether to just continue with the descent or ask for clarification. The radio was busy, he was visual anyway and so continued as cleared.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 7th Nov 2003 at 17:33.
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Radio failure
Consider this as an emergency procedure: Everybody, almost, nowadays carry mobile phones and should of course turn them off in the air. (Because of the explosive risk? Sorry, NOKIA! 
)
But I have seen one used to good effect when the pilot actually called the tower from a PA 28 with radio failure and got on the ground with "proper" clearance even.
Best regards
)But I have seen one used to good effect when the pilot actually called the tower from a PA 28 with radio failure and got on the ground with "proper" clearance even.
Best regards
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D&D now have a phone number (I don't have them to hand but can find them when I next go home*) for each FIR which you can call in an emergency, e.g. lost in IMC with no radio...
Tim
*believe it or not, I am sitting here right now supervising detention at the school where I teach. Fortunately they have a computer with internet connection on the desk!
Tim
*believe it or not, I am sitting here right now supervising detention at the school where I teach. Fortunately they have a computer with internet connection on the desk!
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Fuji,
Yes, if you pass your EFC time, and notice that your radios have quit, (and we can't establish comm with you either) we will expect you to depart the hold, and execute the approach. As a controller I will be moving everyone out of your way.
Mike
Yes, if you pass your EFC time, and notice that your radios have quit, (and we can't establish comm with you either) we will expect you to depart the hold, and execute the approach. As a controller I will be moving everyone out of your way.
Mike
Chocks away!
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NLB,
In fact this happened to us last week when on a local VFR flight from Shoreham in a PA28. We realised we had a radio failure when trying to call up Goodwood on the way to the IoW. We could receive but could not transmit. Cycled the radio and checked everything. Decided we would turn back to Shoreham and sqawked 7600.
Radio failure was confirmed when trying to call Shoreham and we received from them "Carrier wave but no transmission". We knew Shoreham was busy that day with a lot of circuit training. Whether or not it is illegal or recommended I switched on the mobile phone (I was in the right hand seat), flicked through Pooleys for Shoreham ATC and rang them. I was very surprised we could hear each other over the cockpit noise. Military had told them a plane was sqawking 7600 and heading for Shoreham. I gave Shoreham our call-sign and were told to join overhead blah blah as per normal, including info on traffic, runway, QFE, wind. When they saw us in the overhead they gave us joining instructions etc. We replied with a couple of clicks on the tx button. ATC continued to give us "normal" instructions on the circuit, cleared to land etc.
Using a mobile might not be "recognised" but it worked and the ATC were professional and very helpful. It is also very nice to know that squawking 7600 gets an immediate response!
But I have seen one used to good effect when the pilot actually called the tower from a PA 28 with radio failure and got on the ground with "proper" clearance even.
Radio failure was confirmed when trying to call Shoreham and we received from them "Carrier wave but no transmission". We knew Shoreham was busy that day with a lot of circuit training. Whether or not it is illegal or recommended I switched on the mobile phone (I was in the right hand seat), flicked through Pooleys for Shoreham ATC and rang them. I was very surprised we could hear each other over the cockpit noise. Military had told them a plane was sqawking 7600 and heading for Shoreham. I gave Shoreham our call-sign and were told to join overhead blah blah as per normal, including info on traffic, runway, QFE, wind. When they saw us in the overhead they gave us joining instructions etc. We replied with a couple of clicks on the tx button. ATC continued to give us "normal" instructions on the circuit, cleared to land etc.
Using a mobile might not be "recognised" but it worked and the ATC were professional and very helpful. It is also very nice to know that squawking 7600 gets an immediate response!
