Top Tips
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 321
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From: Bristol and Forest of Dean
If you have to make a forced landing don't move the wreckage until the AAIB have told you it's ok to do so (£3000 fine aparently!) 
Enough of this already - Im off to jet blast to start a Top T*ts thread - much more fun!
Kingy
Enough of this already - Im off to jet blast to start a Top T*ts thread - much more fun!
Kingy
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,214
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From: S Warwickshire
AAIB are generally only involved in reportable occurances as defined in the ANO:
17 (1) For the purposes of article 94(1), the following reportable occurrences are hereby
prescribed, that is to say those –
(a) involving damage to an aircraft;
(b) involving injury to a person;
(c) involving the impairment during a flight of the capacity of a member of the flight
crew of an aircraft to undertake the functions to which his licence relates;
(d) involving the use in flight of any procedures taken for the purpose of overcoming
an emergency;
(e) involving the failure of an aircraft system or of any equipment of an aircraft;
(f) arising from the control of an aircraft in flight by its flight crew;
(g) arising from failure or inadequacy of facilities or services on the ground used or
intended to be used for the purposes of or in connection with the operation of
aircraft;
(h) arising from the loading or the carriage of passengers, cargo (including mail) or
fuel;.
17 (1) For the purposes of article 94(1), the following reportable occurrences are hereby
prescribed, that is to say those –
(a) involving damage to an aircraft;
(b) involving injury to a person;
(c) involving the impairment during a flight of the capacity of a member of the flight
crew of an aircraft to undertake the functions to which his licence relates;
(d) involving the use in flight of any procedures taken for the purpose of overcoming
an emergency;
(e) involving the failure of an aircraft system or of any equipment of an aircraft;
(f) arising from the control of an aircraft in flight by its flight crew;
(g) arising from failure or inadequacy of facilities or services on the ground used or
intended to be used for the purposes of or in connection with the operation of
aircraft;
(h) arising from the loading or the carriage of passengers, cargo (including mail) or
fuel;.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: Bristol and Forest of Dean
M1,
You must admit that's quite a comprehensive list!
Even the most perfectly executed forced landing often results in damage to the aircraft - after-all it's a forced landing which may well be in an unsuitable location to alight.
Just because an 'occurrence' is not reported - it doesn't mean it shouldn’t have been. Once reported you can't move the aircraft (wreckage or not) until the AAIB tell you to do so - period...
Cordially
King
(Yes I speak from experience
)
You must admit that's quite a comprehensive list!
Even the most perfectly executed forced landing often results in damage to the aircraft - after-all it's a forced landing which may well be in an unsuitable location to alight.
Just because an 'occurrence' is not reported - it doesn't mean it shouldn’t have been. Once reported you can't move the aircraft (wreckage or not) until the AAIB tell you to do so - period...
Cordially
King
(Yes I speak from experience
)
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Once reported you can't move the aircraft (wreckage or not) until the AAIB tell you to do so
Hadn't heard that before. They didn't seem to mind me moving my aircraft before reporting an incident, or even after it was reported. Although I can see that what you're saying makes sense - if they decide to do a detailed investigation then they'd want things left as they are. For a very minor incident they're unlikely to care, but I guess only they know exactly where the line is. Do you have any references to this rule?
FFF
--------------
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
Geez...some of the items on that list look a bit strange...
17 (1) For the purposes of article 94(1), the following reportable occurrences are hereby prescribed, that is to say those –
(f) arising from the control of an aircraft in flight by its flight crew
Now I've controlled an aircraft in flight....never thought of reporting it though
or this?
(g) arising from failure or inadequacy of facilities or services on the ground used or intended to be used for the purposes of or in connection with the operation of aircraft;
sounds like the notam issue eh?
dp
17 (1) For the purposes of article 94(1), the following reportable occurrences are hereby prescribed, that is to say those –
(f) arising from the control of an aircraft in flight by its flight crew
Now I've controlled an aircraft in flight....never thought of reporting it though
or this?
(g) arising from failure or inadequacy of facilities or services on the ground used or intended to be used for the purposes of or in connection with the operation of aircraft;
sounds like the notam issue eh?
dp
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
From: Euroland
The relevant legislation in the UK is SI 2798 of 1996.
Definitions:
"accident" means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which—
"(a) a person suffers a fatal or serious injury as a result of—
— being in or upon the aircraft,
— direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
— direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self-inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew, or
(b) the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which—
— adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and
— would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component,
except for engine failure or damage, when the damage is limited to the engine, its cowlings or accessories; or for damage limited to propellers, wing tips, antennas, tyres, brakes, fairings, small dents or puncture holes in the aircraft skin; or
(c) the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible;"
"incident" means an occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft which affects or would affect the safety of operation;
"serious incident" means an incident involving circumstances indicating that an accident nearly occurred;
Removal of damaged aircraft
7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and regulation 9 below, where an accident, or a serious incident which results in the withdrawal from service of an aircraft, occurs in or over the United Kingdom no person other than an authorised person shall have access to the aircraft involved and neither the aircraft nor its contents shall, except under the authority of the Secretary of State, be removed or otherwise interfered with.
So basically, if it is an Accident or Serious incident, the aircraft can not be moved until the AAIB say so. For a simple incident, the guidance vailable from the AAIB should be followed with respect to reporting.
Regards,
DFC
Definitions:
"accident" means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which—
"(a) a person suffers a fatal or serious injury as a result of—
— being in or upon the aircraft,
— direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
— direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self-inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew, or
(b) the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which—
— adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and
— would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component,
except for engine failure or damage, when the damage is limited to the engine, its cowlings or accessories; or for damage limited to propellers, wing tips, antennas, tyres, brakes, fairings, small dents or puncture holes in the aircraft skin; or
(c) the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible;"
"incident" means an occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft which affects or would affect the safety of operation;
"serious incident" means an incident involving circumstances indicating that an accident nearly occurred;
Removal of damaged aircraft
7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and regulation 9 below, where an accident, or a serious incident which results in the withdrawal from service of an aircraft, occurs in or over the United Kingdom no person other than an authorised person shall have access to the aircraft involved and neither the aircraft nor its contents shall, except under the authority of the Secretary of State, be removed or otherwise interfered with.
So basically, if it is an Accident or Serious incident, the aircraft can not be moved until the AAIB say so. For a simple incident, the guidance vailable from the AAIB should be followed with respect to reporting.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: UK
Just to add a point to DFCs excellent post.
You are allowed to move wreckage, cut into the aircraft etc, for the purpose of releasing persons from the aircraft. I think the legal statement is within the sections referred to in paragraph 7.
You are allowed to move wreckage, cut into the aircraft etc, for the purpose of releasing persons from the aircraft. I think the legal statement is within the sections referred to in paragraph 7.
Press to Reset
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Cambridge, UK
bcfc:
CB:
See GASIL 2 of 2003, page 15.
MC
Tie your pen to your kneeboard with a piece of string.
Took me a year and countless biros to figure this one out
Took me a year and countless biros to figure this one out
PS bcfc - please let me know the registrations of all the aircraft you've lost Biros in, as I do not wish to fly them until a comprehensive loose articles check has been done by an LAE. They should all currently be grounded.
MC
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
From: Dorset
bcfc - glad to hear it!! Only a semi-serious comment, as I've been surprised to hear a lot of PPLs (members of my group included) who are very casual about missing articles. I've had 31 years of being flown in various kinds of military aviating machine, together with 7 years of helping to design / build them.
If I ever lose anything in a cockpit (or even suspect that I have), the plane and hangar are pretty well stripped bare until I've accounted for it. There was one time after I'd flown and I was around 30 miles away from the airfield, driving home, when I couldn't find my cigarette lighter. I turned round, went back to the airfield and scrutinised the aircraft cockpit....... only to find that it had slipped down the back of the car seat!!
I would like to think that all student PPLs are made aware of the importance of loose articles at an early stage in their training, but I have my concerns that they are not.
Master Caution - also see Page 6 of GASIL 4 of 2002 and this AAIB Report.
[Edited to correct links]
If I ever lose anything in a cockpit (or even suspect that I have), the plane and hangar are pretty well stripped bare until I've accounted for it. There was one time after I'd flown and I was around 30 miles away from the airfield, driving home, when I couldn't find my cigarette lighter. I turned round, went back to the airfield and scrutinised the aircraft cockpit....... only to find that it had slipped down the back of the car seat!!
I would like to think that all student PPLs are made aware of the importance of loose articles at an early stage in their training, but I have my concerns that they are not.
Master Caution - also see Page 6 of GASIL 4 of 2002 and this AAIB Report.
[Edited to correct links]
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Job Centre
Pre-Flight Tip
Just because you fly club aircraft that get a daily inspection by Superman Flying Instructors (sometimes including ex-forces Deities) and then pre-flighted 6 times a day . . . don't imagine they're free of mundane defects.
viz. On pre-flighting my favourite PA28 which I hadn't flown since its re-spray, imagine my surprise on finding both fuel vents blocked by paint. Just waiting for the seals on the filler caps to be renewed at the next annual. (The re-spray was nine months old.)
Also, don't assume that the defect you've just spotted has been seen, logged and accepted as OK to fly. Get someone with real experience to come and look at it. Because EITHER you will save yourself from an unsafe aeroplane OR you will learn a little bit more about that fine line between normal and abnormal.
SD
Just because you fly club aircraft that get a daily inspection by Superman Flying Instructors (sometimes including ex-forces Deities) and then pre-flighted 6 times a day . . . don't imagine they're free of mundane defects.
viz. On pre-flighting my favourite PA28 which I hadn't flown since its re-spray, imagine my surprise on finding both fuel vents blocked by paint. Just waiting for the seals on the filler caps to be renewed at the next annual. (The re-spray was nine months old.)
Also, don't assume that the defect you've just spotted has been seen, logged and accepted as OK to fly. Get someone with real experience to come and look at it. Because EITHER you will save yourself from an unsafe aeroplane OR you will learn a little bit more about that fine line between normal and abnormal.
SD
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
From: N.E. Derbyshire, UK
Sunday Driver -
Couldn't agree more. We had an incident a while ago where a member of our group spotted what seemed to be a hairline crack in the prop. of our 172. It was about 8 inches in from the tip.
If it had been a crack and the prop. had separated in flight, the chances are that the massive out-of-balance forces created by the engine would have shaken the airframe to bits before the engine could be shut down... nasty thought.
We had the prop. taken off and sonically checked with some clever machine that proved, thankfully, that it was no more than a scratch in the metal surface. We think a small stone must have hit the leading edge and split in two, scratching both sides of the prop. and making it look like a crack. It was very hard to see unless you looked very closely, so full marks to the guy who did a thorough pre-flight instead of giving the prop. a cursory glance.
In this case it may have been a false alarm but far better to be safe than sorry....
Couldn't agree more. We had an incident a while ago where a member of our group spotted what seemed to be a hairline crack in the prop. of our 172. It was about 8 inches in from the tip.
If it had been a crack and the prop. had separated in flight, the chances are that the massive out-of-balance forces created by the engine would have shaken the airframe to bits before the engine could be shut down... nasty thought.
We had the prop. taken off and sonically checked with some clever machine that proved, thankfully, that it was no more than a scratch in the metal surface. We think a small stone must have hit the leading edge and split in two, scratching both sides of the prop. and making it look like a crack. It was very hard to see unless you looked very closely, so full marks to the guy who did a thorough pre-flight instead of giving the prop. a cursory glance.
In this case it may have been a false alarm but far better to be safe than sorry....
Sink The Pink
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: age Frais
Another ToryBoy top tip...............
I find that when trying to transmit over the radio to a busy place like Farnborough or Brize, I often find I am stepped on or step on someone when there is a rush to speak with the geezer on the other end.
I have found a way to ensure this doesn't happen and will probably get shot down in flames for it but hey, it works for me.
If the banter is particularly rapid and you can't find a split second to get your message in, wait until the end of some communication between controller and a/c. Then, just press your PTT switch for a split second which will give a tiny carrier wave and put anyone else off trying to transmit. Then, if nobody else is transmitting when you release the PTT button, the airwaves are all yours!
Also, something happened to me recently that made me think. It had rained overnight and then frozen. I was off flying from a farm strip quite early and the wind was calm with the windsock pointing straight down. I opted for the downhill bias on the strip and was surprised on the take off run that I wasn't airborne by half way. I became airborne a lot later than I had anticipated and was wracking my brains for things such as "did I forget to apply flaps", or "have I left the carb heat on" etc. What had actually happened was that the wet windsock had frozen and wasn't showing the 5 knot wind on the runway that I had opted to take off with behind me.
Another one.........why fly everywhere at 2500 feet? Everybody does and if you stick to 2300 or 2700 you will find that you will have a lot less contacts coming at you.
Or...........with winter on the way watch out with those spats. They might look good but a light smattering of snow on the ground will soon fill them up on the take off run. Then, even after a few minutes flying around that snow will freeze solid and on landing you will be stopping rather quicker than you thought.
And...........similarly, if you decide to wash your plane one afternoon in the winter and then put it away until your morning flight, make sure the undrained water hasn't frozen overnight. A plane with lots of little ice lumps inside the airframe where the water didn't drain handles like a pissed giraffe calf. Having the smallest amount of water trapped inside the spinner can make the plane feel like an out of balance washing machine when you fire it up.
Having seen someone once start up their a/c with the towbar still attached I made a mental note from that day onwards to not let go of the towbar when it is attached to the nosewheel.
When landing at an unfamiliar airfield and on finals you have a far better view for where you might be taxying to for parking than once you are on the ground. I always have a brief scan of where I will be most likely asked to head for and on which taxiways when on a half mile final.
With the sun being so glaring just before it sets during the winter (and right in line with most "27" runways) I find it much easier to aim to touchdown just after sunset than with a bright fireball burning through the windscreen at me making me tempted to look sideways during the flare. Sometimes it's only a matter of minutes between a near on impossible landing and one with a perfectly clear view.
I think i'll shut up now
I find that when trying to transmit over the radio to a busy place like Farnborough or Brize, I often find I am stepped on or step on someone when there is a rush to speak with the geezer on the other end.
I have found a way to ensure this doesn't happen and will probably get shot down in flames for it but hey, it works for me.
If the banter is particularly rapid and you can't find a split second to get your message in, wait until the end of some communication between controller and a/c. Then, just press your PTT switch for a split second which will give a tiny carrier wave and put anyone else off trying to transmit. Then, if nobody else is transmitting when you release the PTT button, the airwaves are all yours!
Also, something happened to me recently that made me think. It had rained overnight and then frozen. I was off flying from a farm strip quite early and the wind was calm with the windsock pointing straight down. I opted for the downhill bias on the strip and was surprised on the take off run that I wasn't airborne by half way. I became airborne a lot later than I had anticipated and was wracking my brains for things such as "did I forget to apply flaps", or "have I left the carb heat on" etc. What had actually happened was that the wet windsock had frozen and wasn't showing the 5 knot wind on the runway that I had opted to take off with behind me.
Another one.........why fly everywhere at 2500 feet? Everybody does and if you stick to 2300 or 2700 you will find that you will have a lot less contacts coming at you.
Or...........with winter on the way watch out with those spats. They might look good but a light smattering of snow on the ground will soon fill them up on the take off run. Then, even after a few minutes flying around that snow will freeze solid and on landing you will be stopping rather quicker than you thought.
And...........similarly, if you decide to wash your plane one afternoon in the winter and then put it away until your morning flight, make sure the undrained water hasn't frozen overnight. A plane with lots of little ice lumps inside the airframe where the water didn't drain handles like a pissed giraffe calf. Having the smallest amount of water trapped inside the spinner can make the plane feel like an out of balance washing machine when you fire it up.
Having seen someone once start up their a/c with the towbar still attached I made a mental note from that day onwards to not let go of the towbar when it is attached to the nosewheel.
When landing at an unfamiliar airfield and on finals you have a far better view for where you might be taxying to for parking than once you are on the ground. I always have a brief scan of where I will be most likely asked to head for and on which taxiways when on a half mile final.
With the sun being so glaring just before it sets during the winter (and right in line with most "27" runways) I find it much easier to aim to touchdown just after sunset than with a bright fireball burning through the windscreen at me making me tempted to look sideways during the flare. Sometimes it's only a matter of minutes between a near on impossible landing and one with a perfectly clear view.
I think i'll shut up now
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Why fly everywhere at 2500 feet? Everybody does and if you stick to 2300 or 2700 you will find that you will have a lot less contacts coming at you.
FFF
---------------
Sink The Pink
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: age Frais
FlyingForFun
Yep, point taken. I have just flown back from White Waltham and there were more people saying they were at 2700 feet on the QNH than anything so I must retract that.
On the subject of White Waltham..........................
Top Tip........................
When taxying at White Waltham it is advisable to take a cushion to sit on and make sure any loose items are stowed away!! Why can't they roll the bloody grass! I watched someone in an immaculate Vans taxy in front of me and his wing nearly hit the ground twice !
Yep, point taken. I have just flown back from White Waltham and there were more people saying they were at 2700 feet on the QNH than anything so I must retract that.
On the subject of White Waltham..........................
Top Tip........................
When taxying at White Waltham it is advisable to take a cushion to sit on and make sure any loose items are stowed away!! Why can't they roll the bloody grass! I watched someone in an immaculate Vans taxy in front of me and his wing nearly hit the ground twice !