Pilot 111 dead after < 2 years
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Well, that seems a pretty sure-fire way of killing off a thread!
All I asked for was a fairly staightforward piece of info ......... what "certain batteries"? ......or do we all have to fry our Pilot IIIs to find out?
Just thought I'd give it another try!!
Cheers
JC
All I asked for was a fairly staightforward piece of info ......... what "certain batteries"? ......or do we all have to fry our Pilot IIIs to find out?
Just thought I'd give it another try!!
Cheers
JC
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The rechargeable battery thing doesn't hold up IMHO. A NiCd or NiMH produces a voltage of around 1.5 - 1.8 when fully charged although they are rated at 1.2v. A dry cell such as a Duracell is nominally rated at 1.5v and generally produces 1.5v. The difference in voltage is not a factor as these ubnits are designed to run at varying voltages in any case.
The discharge characteristics are very different as the rechargeable cells will hold voltage for longer, but die quicker.
I have run all sorts of equipment on NiCd's and now on NiMh's - much better capacity without any problem. We need a boffin on the case - replies please
Oh, by the way, an earlier poster mentioned Volvo were good at out of warranty claims - No, no, no and er no! Both me and a mate had V70's (laugh, I nearly did), and had problems within months of the 3 year warranty running out. Neither of us got more than a 'sorry' letter from them - appalling customer service, never again, Stuttgart rules OK
The discharge characteristics are very different as the rechargeable cells will hold voltage for longer, but die quicker.
I have run all sorts of equipment on NiCd's and now on NiMh's - much better capacity without any problem. We need a boffin on the case - replies please
Oh, by the way, an earlier poster mentioned Volvo were good at out of warranty claims - No, no, no and er no! Both me and a mate had V70's (laugh, I nearly did), and had problems within months of the 3 year warranty running out. Neither of us got more than a 'sorry' letter from them - appalling customer service, never again, Stuttgart rules OK
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One of the reasons for having warrantys is that it enable 'techies' to identify failure trends i nthe early years of a product's life.
If, for example the first purchasers of Pilot IIIs all returned them after a few months as, lets say, the on/off switch failed, then it gives the engineers a chance to introduce a new, better, switch.
I would agree with F D about some car companys giving a pro-rata discount on long-life parts that fail early. Mrs K got a new gearbox that way! If won't work on consumables like exhausts or clutches.
If, for example the first purchasers of Pilot IIIs all returned them after a few months as, lets say, the on/off switch failed, then it gives the engineers a chance to introduce a new, better, switch.
I would agree with F D about some car companys giving a pro-rata discount on long-life parts that fail early. Mrs K got a new gearbox that way! If won't work on consumables like exhausts or clutches.
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Javelin,
Sorry to read about your experience with Volvo. I quoted from the time that 'pipes and slippers' were compulsory to procure a Volvo and that Volvos were built like the proverbial.
Ah, those were the days.
FD
Sorry to read about your experience with Volvo. I quoted from the time that 'pipes and slippers' were compulsory to procure a Volvo and that Volvos were built like the proverbial.
Ah, those were the days.
FD
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I don't know if the pilot III has a built-in charger, but there are differances in Ni-Cd, Ni-Mh, and LI-ON cells in charging. Is this what blew the power management system?
WF.
WF.
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WF,
No, there's no internal charger. If using rechargable batteries you have to take them out (4 AA pencells) and put them in whatever charger you have separately acquired.
No, there's no internal charger. If using rechargable batteries you have to take them out (4 AA pencells) and put them in whatever charger you have separately acquired.
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We've obviously got it easy in Western Australia as there is a law here that states that the product should be fit for the purpose it was sold and that includes a reasonable expectation of lifespan. I got my wife's car's dashboard replaced free of charge and the car was 4 and a half years old. I also got a full refund for my dvd player after it died at 18 months.
It may be worth checking if there is such a law in your own neck of the woods.
It may be worth checking if there is such a law in your own neck of the woods.
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The truth about AA batteries
Please forgive the length of this posting, but it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about battery operated GPS behaviour amongst pilots and maybe manufacturers, as evidenced here.
1) "GPS switches off for no reason". Yes. My venerable GPS92 did it on Wednesday while scud running to Shawbury. Good to always have another means of navigation.
Almost invariably the reason for this is corrosion of the battery contacts. AA powered devices rely on spring pressure for contact and a thin layer of plating on battery and spring to prevent corrosion. Movement (or aircraft vibration) causes this plating to chafe, exposing bare metal which corrodes.
The corrosion forms a very tough oxide film which inhibits current flow momentarily and Bingo! switch off. In a torch, which the AA cells were designed for, you'd never know. But in a microprocessor gadget like a GPS, the only possibility is to shut down before the system becomes corrupt. Note that increasing contact pressure by bending springs etc only makes things worse because the oxide can resist any amount of force and greater spring pressure increases the chafing.
Often the corrosion relates to the battery cells themselves and can be fixed with new ones. In emergency, removing them and rubbing the end caps on a piece of cloth (trousers?) will probably allow you to complete the flight without more trouble.
Eventually, corrosion will show up on the contacts or springs and the only proper fix is to replace them. But a temporary fix is to use a fibre glass cleaning pencil (available from Maplin for instance) to remove the corrosion and burnish the metal. This will work for a while, but you'll end up cleaning the contacts for every flight!
2) "Rechargeable AA cells" However tempting economically, I advise against rechargeables in hand held GPS. The reason is that all rechargeables have a vent for pressure relief during charging (they can get quite hot) and the gas being vented contains electrolyte, which is often corrosive. This is the white crystalline deposit seen around the positive end of worn out Nicads.
You won't know that a cell is venting until it corrodes your contacts. This is one reason why some manufacturers don't provide internal recharging circuits in AA powered appliances. (The build up of heat and risk of explosion are others). Possibly, the cells are more prone to venting in GPS than other applications because of the altitude changes.
Now these comments may not apply to every type of AA rechargeable, but I don't know for sure and so I stick to good quality Alkaline cells. Even so, all brands of alkaline have the possibility of expelling unpleasant chemicals. In my opinion the copper top variety are less worse than many others. The golden rule is to replace them early.
3) "The batteries fried my GPS". I doubt it. If the 'frying' was because of excess voltage, it would be more likely with Alkalines than most rechargeables. And if it was caused by insufficient voltage straining a voltage converter, that would be more likely with Alkalines as well. And if it was caused by the greater current capability of Nicads or other rechargeables then that's just ludicrous.
One thing that could distress your GPS is reverse insertion, something not helped by the pathetic labelling of many GPS's. Most modern battery appliances are designed to withstand reverse polarity, but the quality of this design may vary and faults might become apparent some time later. If the 'protection' is a reverse polarity diode, reverse insertion might blow an internal fire protection fuse. The unit would then be 'dead'. (No, I'm not suggesting anything about this particular case!).
It might be a good idea if manufacturers were a bit more straightforward in explaining some these problems to their customers and avoided the need to resort to spurious excuses. In particular, If they don't already, they should make spare contacts easily available for fitment by qualified technicians.
1) "GPS switches off for no reason". Yes. My venerable GPS92 did it on Wednesday while scud running to Shawbury. Good to always have another means of navigation.
Almost invariably the reason for this is corrosion of the battery contacts. AA powered devices rely on spring pressure for contact and a thin layer of plating on battery and spring to prevent corrosion. Movement (or aircraft vibration) causes this plating to chafe, exposing bare metal which corrodes.
The corrosion forms a very tough oxide film which inhibits current flow momentarily and Bingo! switch off. In a torch, which the AA cells were designed for, you'd never know. But in a microprocessor gadget like a GPS, the only possibility is to shut down before the system becomes corrupt. Note that increasing contact pressure by bending springs etc only makes things worse because the oxide can resist any amount of force and greater spring pressure increases the chafing.
Often the corrosion relates to the battery cells themselves and can be fixed with new ones. In emergency, removing them and rubbing the end caps on a piece of cloth (trousers?) will probably allow you to complete the flight without more trouble.
Eventually, corrosion will show up on the contacts or springs and the only proper fix is to replace them. But a temporary fix is to use a fibre glass cleaning pencil (available from Maplin for instance) to remove the corrosion and burnish the metal. This will work for a while, but you'll end up cleaning the contacts for every flight!
2) "Rechargeable AA cells" However tempting economically, I advise against rechargeables in hand held GPS. The reason is that all rechargeables have a vent for pressure relief during charging (they can get quite hot) and the gas being vented contains electrolyte, which is often corrosive. This is the white crystalline deposit seen around the positive end of worn out Nicads.
You won't know that a cell is venting until it corrodes your contacts. This is one reason why some manufacturers don't provide internal recharging circuits in AA powered appliances. (The build up of heat and risk of explosion are others). Possibly, the cells are more prone to venting in GPS than other applications because of the altitude changes.
Now these comments may not apply to every type of AA rechargeable, but I don't know for sure and so I stick to good quality Alkaline cells. Even so, all brands of alkaline have the possibility of expelling unpleasant chemicals. In my opinion the copper top variety are less worse than many others. The golden rule is to replace them early.
3) "The batteries fried my GPS". I doubt it. If the 'frying' was because of excess voltage, it would be more likely with Alkalines than most rechargeables. And if it was caused by insufficient voltage straining a voltage converter, that would be more likely with Alkalines as well. And if it was caused by the greater current capability of Nicads or other rechargeables then that's just ludicrous.
One thing that could distress your GPS is reverse insertion, something not helped by the pathetic labelling of many GPS's. Most modern battery appliances are designed to withstand reverse polarity, but the quality of this design may vary and faults might become apparent some time later. If the 'protection' is a reverse polarity diode, reverse insertion might blow an internal fire protection fuse. The unit would then be 'dead'. (No, I'm not suggesting anything about this particular case!).
It might be a good idea if manufacturers were a bit more straightforward in explaining some these problems to their customers and avoided the need to resort to spurious excuses. In particular, If they don't already, they should make spare contacts easily available for fitment by qualified technicians.
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Interesting post, David. I know you were not refering to this case in particular, but it is perhaps worth reinforcing that neither the 'switching off' fault or the 'sudden death' of my former Pilot 111s could be expalined by your reasoning. That isn't to say that your reasoning isn't perfectly valid.
My first Pilot111 (exchanged by the supplier after a week since it had the fault from new) did indeed switch itself off in flight. Its replacement did not, and worked without a problem until it 'died'. It never switched itself off in flight, and I didn't have to do any restoration of the battery caps to ensure it worked OK.
When it died after almost 2 years of fault-free use, it wasn't following a battery replacement. One weekend it worked fine. Next weekend (same batteries, about half discharged therefore about 5 hours life left) it simply wouldn't switch on. The unit had spent the intervening week in my house in its bag, as it always does - and had not been touched since the flight the previous week.
As said earlier, Garmin eventually replaced it free of charge. But I haven't been able to fly it yet due aeroplane being U/S. Hope to put that right tomorrow.
Hope it doesn't switch itself off
SSD
My first Pilot111 (exchanged by the supplier after a week since it had the fault from new) did indeed switch itself off in flight. Its replacement did not, and worked without a problem until it 'died'. It never switched itself off in flight, and I didn't have to do any restoration of the battery caps to ensure it worked OK.
When it died after almost 2 years of fault-free use, it wasn't following a battery replacement. One weekend it worked fine. Next weekend (same batteries, about half discharged therefore about 5 hours life left) it simply wouldn't switch on. The unit had spent the intervening week in my house in its bag, as it always does - and had not been touched since the flight the previous week.
As said earlier, Garmin eventually replaced it free of charge. But I haven't been able to fly it yet due aeroplane being U/S. Hope to put that right tomorrow.
Hope it doesn't switch itself off
SSD
