R/T question.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Hornchurch, Essex
R/T question.
In the reply to "Pass your message", why does it require a heading and not track to be given ?
I am only flying from A to B on a heading of, say, 190 to keep a track of 180.
Am I missing something ??
I am only flying from A to B on a heading of, say, 190 to keep a track of 180.
Am I missing something ??
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
Is that the CAP413 response? It's a bit much IMHO, and I wouldn't bother with heading. You've already told them the route (G-CD is a PA-28, VFR A to B via C....). If they really want to know then I guess they'll say, but i've never been asked my heading.
Oh, and why? Dunno. When did logic ever come in to it...
Oh, and why? Dunno. When did logic ever come in to it...
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
My guess, for what it is worth, is that it is related to what a controller will say when passing radar vectors to you. Telling you to "come right, track 020" is fairly useless as neither of you know what the wind is, so they'll tell you "come right, heading 020" - if the track is important, as in a SRA, they can pass further corrections. That may be rubbish though 
But in the real world i'd ignore what CAP413 says about passing heading information. As you'll often see ATCOs say here, they would like to know "who you are. where you are. what you want". Heading information is not really important, and I've never heard a CAP 413 response to "pass your message" (even Genghis, who has the most by-the-book RT that i've ever heard, doesn't do it ). If they need to know they will ask.
HTH
But in the real world i'd ignore what CAP413 says about passing heading information. As you'll often see ATCOs say here, they would like to know "who you are. where you are. what you want". Heading information is not really important, and I've never heard a CAP 413 response to "pass your message" (even Genghis, who has the most by-the-book RT that i've ever heard, doesn't do it
). If they need to know they will ask.HTH
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
From: London
It might be worth asking this on the ATC forum, but I think that one reason ATC like to have your heading is so that they have a reference point to ask for a turn (eg turn left 10deg onto a hdg of 140deg).
They know the wind and will be able to work out the approximate track from the heading.
W
They know the wind and will be able to work out the approximate track from the heading.
W
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Riviera
WCollins has it about right. The radar will display track (magnetic) but, if we want you to alter your track we need to know your heading. Other wise you will be given endless "turn right 15 degrees" etc.....................
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: uk
I visited ATC at West Drayton recently, and asked an ATCO what he wanted to hear on first contact.
He said he wanted to know where you'd come from, where you were going, and what you were asking him for. He wasn't interested in the heading, or height if you're squaking mode charlie, but would ask you if he needed any more info.
I guess it probably depends how busy they are etc.
He said he wanted to know where you'd come from, where you were going, and what you were asking him for. He wasn't interested in the heading, or height if you're squaking mode charlie, but would ask you if he needed any more info.
I guess it probably depends how busy they are etc.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
From: Euroland
The reason for stating the heading is so that the controller can follow the method of primary radar identification with a minimum of calls. The procedure is:
1. Pilot reports heading
2. After a period of assesment, pilot is instructed to make a turn of 30 degrees or more.
3. Provided that only one aircraft responds to the instruction, the aircraft is identified.
Thus by reporting the heading on initial call, step 1 above is completed.
In the SSR environment however, none of the above is required.
However, the R/T manual tries to use generic catch all calls whenever possible......after all as a pilot on handover has no way of knowing that the controller's SSR failed 2 minutes ago.
It is true that radar displays track.....this must be remembered when the controller points out traffic "12 O'Clock" when you are tracking along with a 20 degree crab angle!!
Regards,
DFC
1. Pilot reports heading
2. After a period of assesment, pilot is instructed to make a turn of 30 degrees or more.
3. Provided that only one aircraft responds to the instruction, the aircraft is identified.
Thus by reporting the heading on initial call, step 1 above is completed.
In the SSR environment however, none of the above is required.
However, the R/T manual tries to use generic catch all calls whenever possible......after all as a pilot on handover has no way of knowing that the controller's SSR failed 2 minutes ago.
It is true that radar displays track.....this must be remembered when the controller points out traffic "12 O'Clock" when you are tracking along with a 20 degree crab angle!!
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
From: Anywhere
DFC
If you've been handed over the SSR failure won't matter - we'll already have the ident on primary
But to verify what others have said - we're not interested in your heading when you're a transit and you're just giving us your details after you've just 'freecalled' the unit (the "pass your message reply").
The only time I need it is when I start vectoring you for an approach or separating you (Radar Advisory) - in which case it's normally "Turn left 10/20/30 degrees and report your new heading". Any headings we give you after that are based on the previous, but now known heading.
However, the R/T manual tries to use generic catch all calls whenever possible......after all as a pilot on handover has no way of knowing that the controller's SSR failed 2 minutes ago.
But to verify what others have said - we're not interested in your heading when you're a transit and you're just giving us your details after you've just 'freecalled' the unit (the "pass your message reply").
The only time I need it is when I start vectoring you for an approach or separating you (Radar Advisory) - in which case it's normally "Turn left 10/20/30 degrees and report your new heading". Any headings we give you after that are based on the previous, but now known heading.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
From: Spanish Riviera
Sorry to come back, but having thought about it and spoken with the military Centre of Excellence 
, the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter. If the controller wants to know something, he/she will ask you. The important bit is clarity and brevity. Please, please don't give us your life story, especially at a fair rate of knots. Generally, we cannot write too quickly, some of us like using crayons, and our flight strips are mighty small things that were not designed for "War & Peace".
, the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter. If the controller wants to know something, he/she will ask you. The important bit is clarity and brevity. Please, please don't give us your life story, especially at a fair rate of knots. Generally, we cannot write too quickly, some of us like using crayons, and our flight strips are mighty small things that were not designed for "War & Peace".
