Non-radio flying
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Non-radio flying
I'm looking for advice/ thoughts on flying non-radio aircraft.
What are the main differences and considerations? Obviously the main difficulties regard airfields- airfield information when on the ground? airspace?
the need for signals squares and light signals is obvious, but the more i think about it, the more i realise how useful and how much we rely on radios, and i'm looking for a share in a non radio aircraft so i thought i'd ask for your opinions and experiences (can't find any previous threads on it!)
cheers
What are the main differences and considerations? Obviously the main difficulties regard airfields- airfield information when on the ground? airspace?
the need for signals squares and light signals is obvious, but the more i think about it, the more i realise how useful and how much we rely on radios, and i'm looking for a share in a non radio aircraft so i thought i'd ask for your opinions and experiences (can't find any previous threads on it!)
cheers
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There are different opinions on this topic, but I would first like to say that just because the aiircraft is non-radio, it doesn't mean that you have to be. By investing in a handheld tx / rx + headset adapter, you'll be able to communicate to your hearts desire if you so wish.
Back to the topic, IMHO, a radio (used properly) is one of many factors that can contribute to flight safety as you are able to maintain situational awareness of what's going on around you and what circuit traffic is planning to do (rather than relying on red / green / white lights being flashed at you). You are also able to enter controlled airspace safely. You can also direct emergency services to the scene of the crash
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As I said, this is a personal opinion and is not universally held by all. The availability / unavailability of a radio does not make you unsafe, but can form part of the chain of events leading to an entry in GASIL.
Back to the topic, IMHO, a radio (used properly) is one of many factors that can contribute to flight safety as you are able to maintain situational awareness of what's going on around you and what circuit traffic is planning to do (rather than relying on red / green / white lights being flashed at you). You are also able to enter controlled airspace safely. You can also direct emergency services to the scene of the crash
.As I said, this is a personal opinion and is not universally held by all. The availability / unavailability of a radio does not make you unsafe, but can form part of the chain of events leading to an entry in GASIL.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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In response to Circuit Bashers's suggestion, I don't think this is legal - I'm pretty sure that the radio insatllation needs to be certficated as part of the aircraft. I'm sure someone else will know more definitely.
I think non-radio flying varies depending on where you fly from (or to). If you fly from a non-radio farm-strip then obviously it won't make a whole load of difference. If you fly from an ATC field, then there's a good chance they won't be happy about you flying non-radio.
The field I know best is White Waltham. There are plenty of non-radio aircraft based there, and on the whole they integrate well with other traffic. That's because all of the based pilots know that they're there, so we always have our eyes open in the circuit, regardless of whether we've spotted everyone who's called "downwind" within the last 5 minutes.
I've only flown non-radio a couple of times, and it was a bit disconcerting, just because I wasn't used to it, but not really a problem. Before leaving, find out as late as possible what the runway in use is - once you've found it out, if it changes you'll have no way of knowing! That's less of a problem in the air, because you'll be looking at the signal square, but signal squares have been known to be wrong!
Like I said, this is only from very limited experience, but I don't think you'll have any problems, depending where your aircraft is going to be based.
FFF
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I think non-radio flying varies depending on where you fly from (or to). If you fly from a non-radio farm-strip then obviously it won't make a whole load of difference. If you fly from an ATC field, then there's a good chance they won't be happy about you flying non-radio.
The field I know best is White Waltham. There are plenty of non-radio aircraft based there, and on the whole they integrate well with other traffic. That's because all of the based pilots know that they're there, so we always have our eyes open in the circuit, regardless of whether we've spotted everyone who's called "downwind" within the last 5 minutes.
I've only flown non-radio a couple of times, and it was a bit disconcerting, just because I wasn't used to it, but not really a problem. Before leaving, find out as late as possible what the runway in use is - once you've found it out, if it changes you'll have no way of knowing! That's less of a problem in the air, because you'll be looking at the signal square, but signal squares have been known to be wrong!
Like I said, this is only from very limited experience, but I don't think you'll have any problems, depending where your aircraft is going to be based.
FFF
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Non radio flying used to be norm out of Barton. Now it's very much the exception. However, our Chippy's radio failed recently so for the last couple of weeks we've been flying non radio. The flights I've made have been to Shelowe strip (twice, including their fly-in), and local aeros forays and I can honestly say I have not missed the radio at all. Quite the reverse.
On Sunday I took a non-flying friend into Sherlowe and back from Barton. It was nice just to be able to chat to each other over the intercom without the instrusion of the radio - which, for that flight, is quite unnessessary. We wanderd back and forth at low level over Shropshire, loooking at points of interest my friend wanted to see - certain halls, canal structures, villages and country parks.
Operating in and out of Barton was no problem, though with a fly-in and landing competition going on the FISOs were a tad concerned about our non-radio return. No problem - keep a good lookout, join overhead to observe the signals square and circuit traffic, note a 152 descending dead side with no-one behind him, tuck in behind him and follow him round the circuit resisting the temptation cut in (he was a bit of a 'bomber'), then land. Not a problem
To answer S&R's question specifically, apart from the things he mentions it very much depends on where you want to fly. Non radio engenders a freedom you just don't get when you are talking to a controller, so my feeling is in an environment like the one we were in over Shropshire on Sunday, non radio is best. If I'd been talking to Shawbury (who probably weren't active anyway) and announced "SL is a Chipmunk, Barton to Sherlowe strip, level 2500 1026 west abeam Nantwich, request FIS" the controller would think that's all we are doing, and not be expecting me to be wandering back and forth looking at the scenery, or whizzing up to 4000 for a few aeros. To have to explain to a controller all our movements would have been a pain and removed the spontanaety of our flight.
There's a lovely freedom in non-radio that you just can't get when the box is shouting at you all the time - even if the calls aren't for you, you have to listen to them all in case they are.
However, not having a radio at all will obviously limit where you can go.
Best compromise is probably have a hand-held fixed on the panel and only switch it on if you need it.
(edited to change from 'Stik' to 'S&R' - did wonder at Stik posting such a question, since I know he already flys lots of non-radio. S&R - you're not indulging in attempted identity theft, are you ;~)
SSD
On Sunday I took a non-flying friend into Sherlowe and back from Barton. It was nice just to be able to chat to each other over the intercom without the instrusion of the radio - which, for that flight, is quite unnessessary. We wanderd back and forth at low level over Shropshire, loooking at points of interest my friend wanted to see - certain halls, canal structures, villages and country parks.
Operating in and out of Barton was no problem, though with a fly-in and landing competition going on the FISOs were a tad concerned about our non-radio return. No problem - keep a good lookout, join overhead to observe the signals square and circuit traffic, note a 152 descending dead side with no-one behind him, tuck in behind him and follow him round the circuit resisting the temptation cut in (he was a bit of a 'bomber'), then land. Not a problem
To answer S&R's question specifically, apart from the things he mentions it very much depends on where you want to fly. Non radio engenders a freedom you just don't get when you are talking to a controller, so my feeling is in an environment like the one we were in over Shropshire on Sunday, non radio is best. If I'd been talking to Shawbury (who probably weren't active anyway) and announced "SL is a Chipmunk, Barton to Sherlowe strip, level 2500 1026 west abeam Nantwich, request FIS" the controller would think that's all we are doing, and not be expecting me to be wandering back and forth looking at the scenery, or whizzing up to 4000 for a few aeros. To have to explain to a controller all our movements would have been a pain and removed the spontanaety of our flight.
There's a lovely freedom in non-radio that you just can't get when the box is shouting at you all the time - even if the calls aren't for you, you have to listen to them all in case they are.
However, not having a radio at all will obviously limit where you can go.
Best compromise is probably have a hand-held fixed on the panel and only switch it on if you need it.
(edited to change from 'Stik' to 'S&R' - did wonder at Stik posting such a question, since I know he already flys lots of non-radio. S&R - you're not indulging in attempted identity theft, are you ;~)
SSD
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 24th Sep 2003 at 21:57.
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I regularly fly non-radio. Longest to date was Norfolk to Kemble and back - four and a half hours.
I do take far more care with my routings and try to avoid entering MATZs.
If I am practicing aeros in open FIR in S Norfolk, N Suffolk, I generally turn the radio off.
As for using a handheld in a PFA aircraft, I believe that if the operator has an RT licence then that is legal. Only if the radio kit is permanently installed does it require installation certification. I've just filled in a couple of PFA blue renewal forms so am fairly confident that I have it right!
the original - Stik
I do take far more care with my routings and try to avoid entering MATZs.
If I am practicing aeros in open FIR in S Norfolk, N Suffolk, I generally turn the radio off.
As for using a handheld in a PFA aircraft, I believe that if the operator has an RT licence then that is legal. Only if the radio kit is permanently installed does it require installation certification. I've just filled in a couple of PFA blue renewal forms so am fairly confident that I have it right!
the original - Stik
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I heard of a guy once in the states who flew a Lear jet non radio. He didn't like them. He just used to phone the fields and let them know he was coming in.
Many fields will let you in non radio if you call them first. Don't expect to get into Birmingham etc, but I imagine Popham , Compton etc will all be pleased to see you.
Flying without a radio, like SSD says is a liberating experience especially from a field like WW. It was the norm in the old days.
You can always buy an ICOM, they work fine and will be useful as a backup for later life if you go onto instrument flying (if only to get the ATIS before you start the clock ticking.)
FFF I don't think the installation of radios needs to be certified, although the equipment does. Lots of PFA aircraft fly on ICOMS. I don't even think you need an engineer to change a radio in a warrrior.
Many fields will let you in non radio if you call them first. Don't expect to get into Birmingham etc, but I imagine Popham , Compton etc will all be pleased to see you.
Flying without a radio, like SSD says is a liberating experience especially from a field like WW. It was the norm in the old days.
You can always buy an ICOM, they work fine and will be useful as a backup for later life if you go onto instrument flying (if only to get the ATIS before you start the clock ticking.)
FFF I don't think the installation of radios needs to be certified, although the equipment does. Lots of PFA aircraft fly on ICOMS. I don't even think you need an engineer to change a radio in a warrrior.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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As for using a handheld in a PFA aircraft, I believe that if the operator has an RT licence then that is legal. Only if the radio kit is permanently installed does it require installation certification
FFF
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FFF - don't think you were that wrong, but also don't think I was. Tried looking through JAR 23 (Airworthiness Design Document) and JAR 21 (Certification of Airworthiness Document) but didn't really find any answers there, other than references to STCs, etc.
Tried looking on the CAA Web Site in their Aircraft Radio Licensing section and it appears that it is possible to get a 'transportable radio licence' for which a flat fee is paid - this is more from the point of view of a 'Wireless Telegraphy Act Radio Licence issued by the Directorate of Airspace Policy on behalf of the Radiocommunications Agency'.
Where's Geng the Eng when you need him??
Tried looking on the CAA Web Site in their Aircraft Radio Licensing section and it appears that it is possible to get a 'transportable radio licence' for which a flat fee is paid - this is more from the point of view of a 'Wireless Telegraphy Act Radio Licence issued by the Directorate of Airspace Policy on behalf of the Radiocommunications Agency'.
Where's Geng the Eng when you need him??
stick&rudder get an Icom A3 handheld. They are better than a lot of the radios found in light aircraft panels. As long as you don't permanently attach it to your aircraft it doesn't figure in the Annual Inspection. Mine was the only radio in my Cub and now I always carry it as a back up in the Auster.
As others have said, as long as you are sure of your position, non-radio flying is a very pleasant way to travel.
As others have said, as long as you are sure of your position, non-radio flying is a very pleasant way to travel.
The Original Whirly
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I quite often don't use the radio. Just having it doesn't make it compulsory. However, if you're sightseeing in Shawbury's Zone, it's fine to tell them just that. You can call it General Handling if you like - after all, that's what instructors from Sleap and Welshpool will be telling them. They usually give you a squawk and leave you alone unless there's any traffic close to you. But they're closed at weekends anyway.
Genghis is on holiday.
Genghis is on holiday.
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I fly non-radio probably 90% of the time with no problems what-so-ever. If you are going somwhere phone them first, most will let you in. If you are just pottering around in open FIR, just set your QNH from your known field elevation, keep a good look out and enjoy.
The trouble with radio is that there is no guarentee that the guy your about to crash in to is talking to the same people you are anyway...! just how much use is a flight information service except in ensuring that everyone is on the same RPS... not good if everyone is flying at 1500' VFR.
Kingy
The trouble with radio is that there is no guarentee that the guy your about to crash in to is talking to the same people you are anyway...! just how much use is a flight information service except in ensuring that everyone is on the same RPS... not good if everyone is flying at 1500' VFR.
Kingy
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I think the biggest issue, which non-radio fans will be quick to point out, is that a FIS is generally of negligible use to the PILOT as far as traffic avoidance goes. Very few PPL instructors will tell you this, unfortunately.
So (save specific situations like flight plan flights abroad etc) almost the entire use of an FIS is to have someone around who you can be reasonably sure will hear a mayday call if you have to make one.
Whether actually talking to e.g. London Info is any better than just maintaining a listening watch, I doubt. Nowadays I rarely talk to them. I know of very experienced pilots who do the same.
But, non-radio I would not like very much. Try getting into Shoreham for example on anything resembling a busy day. Your flying options are severely limited.
So (save specific situations like flight plan flights abroad etc) almost the entire use of an FIS is to have someone around who you can be reasonably sure will hear a mayday call if you have to make one.
Whether actually talking to e.g. London Info is any better than just maintaining a listening watch, I doubt. Nowadays I rarely talk to them. I know of very experienced pilots who do the same.
But, non-radio I would not like very much. Try getting into Shoreham for example on anything resembling a busy day. Your flying options are severely limited.
The Original Whirly
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Whether actually talking to e.g. London Info is any better than just maintaining a listening watch, I doubt. Nowadays I rarely talk to them. I know of very experienced pilots who do the same.
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Just having it doesn't make it compulsory. However, if you're sightseeing in Shawbury's Zone, it's fine to tell them just that. You can call it General Handling if you like - after all, that's what instructors from Sleap and Welshpool will be telling them. They usually give you a squawk and leave you alone unless there's any traffic close to you.
We can't squawk, either, at present. We weren't actually in Shawbury Zone - just over Shropshire, in an area where folk generally call Shawbury for FIS. For a 'wandering around sight-seing and aeros' bimble like what we were doing, there's not much value in that. And if you do initiate a call, you are then duty bound to listen to all transmissions in case there's one for you.
It's oh so much nicer not to have it on at all under those circumstances.
But, non-radio I would not like very much. Try getting into Shoreham for example on anything resembling a busy day. Your flying options are severely limited.
Thats the beauty of the on/off switch. Bimble with it 'off', switch it 'on' when that's appropriate.
As someone else said, 'use it or lose it'. I think it's an amazing freedom to be able to bimble about a large part of the UK without anyone 'in authority' knowing you are doing it. If you drive your car any distance, you'll appear on all sorts of survellance cameras. Ditto if you walk through most towns or villages, or go into a shop. The air can still be a real place of freedom, even in the UK of 2003. Treasure it! And use it! If some government busybody finds out a bunch of us are having unsupervised fun, they'll put a stop to it sooner than you can say 'identity card please sir!'.
SSD
We can't squawk, either, at present. We weren't actually in Shawbury Zone - just over Shropshire, in an area where folk generally call Shawbury for FIS. For a 'wandering around sight-seing and aeros' bimble like what we were doing, there's not much value in that. And if you do initiate a call, you are then duty bound to listen to all transmissions in case there's one for you.
It's oh so much nicer not to have it on at all under those circumstances.
But, non-radio I would not like very much. Try getting into Shoreham for example on anything resembling a busy day. Your flying options are severely limited.
Thats the beauty of the on/off switch. Bimble with it 'off', switch it 'on' when that's appropriate.
As someone else said, 'use it or lose it'. I think it's an amazing freedom to be able to bimble about a large part of the UK without anyone 'in authority' knowing you are doing it. If you drive your car any distance, you'll appear on all sorts of survellance cameras. Ditto if you walk through most towns or villages, or go into a shop. The air can still be a real place of freedom, even in the UK of 2003. Treasure it! And use it! If some government busybody finds out a bunch of us are having unsupervised fun, they'll put a stop to it sooner than you can say 'identity card please sir!'.
SSD
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If you drive your car any distance, you'll appear on all sorts of survellance cameras. Ditto if you walk through most towns or villages, or go into a shop. The air can still be a real place of freedom, even in the UK of 2003. Treasure it! And use it! If some government busybody finds out a bunch of us are having unsupervised fun, they'll put a stop to it sooner than you can say 'identity card please sir!'.
I think you will find that the armies of plane spotters, with their websites listing aircraft registrations (and sometimes names and addresses of the owners listed on the CAA website) do some of this task already
I think you will find that the armies of plane spotters, with their websites listing aircraft registrations (and sometimes names and addresses of the owners listed on the CAA website) do some of this task already
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I use my handheld radio like I use my mobile phone, as a servant not a master. Use it when necessary, for example inbound to places like Shoreham, or transit Brize (twice last weekend, and 'negative squawk' as well - thanks guys!), and then switch it off when not necessary. X-country in the open FIR I select 121.5 and then switch off, until ready to call next arrival airfield if needed, and can then concentrate on navigation and lookout.
I would think that operating a totally non-radio a/c would be quite restricting, as so many potential destinations would be unavailable. But there is no reason why it shouldn't be done.
Slip
I would think that operating a totally non-radio a/c would be quite restricting, as so many potential destinations would be unavailable. But there is no reason why it shouldn't be done.
Slip