Ooops, missed that call...!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 110
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From: UK
I'm surprised at some of the responses above! 
Why call for a service and then turn the volume down. Doesn't make sense to me. To the ATCO types that have responded above, is it possible, or even advisable, to request an alerting service if that is all the pilot is after? At least that would remove you from the requirments of a FIS.
D
Why call for a service and then turn the volume down. Doesn't make sense to me. To the ATCO types that have responded above, is it possible, or even advisable, to request an alerting service if that is all the pilot is after? At least that would remove you from the requirments of a FIS.D
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I would just say "apologies" and leave it at that. Happens to all.
However the original post mentioned an FIS and not e.g. an RIS. An FIS is possibly worth very little at best when it comes to alerting to traffic which might come within a light year or two within you anyway.
An RIS is wholly different, and often a controller with a radar will give you an "FIS" due to workload (especially if you are "VFR") but in reality he's got on on the screen and will tell you if you are about to get close to something.
So, I often just maintain a listening watch on known-non-radar services, e.g. London Info but if I was getting an FIS from Thames Radar then I would be 100% with them, no exceptions.
However the original post mentioned an FIS and not e.g. an RIS. An FIS is possibly worth very little at best when it comes to alerting to traffic which might come within a light year or two within you anyway.
An RIS is wholly different, and often a controller with a radar will give you an "FIS" due to workload (especially if you are "VFR") but in reality he's got on on the screen and will tell you if you are about to get close to something.
So, I often just maintain a listening watch on known-non-radar services, e.g. London Info but if I was getting an FIS from Thames Radar then I would be 100% with them, no exceptions.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Reading between the lines, does some of this happen because PPL students are told they MUST use the radio? So once qualified they ask for an FIS, then turn down the volume?
You don't have to do this; there are alternatives. You can switch your radio off and not talk to anyone, if that's what you want to do.
If you just think it might be nice to be able to call someone in an emergency, you can tune into a frequency and turn down the volume - London Info, D & D, the nearest big airfield, whatever you like - so that in the event of engine failure or similar you don't have to twiddle any knobs to get out a Mayday. Or you can maintain a listening watch, which means you listen in and might hear useful things about the traffic in your area...unless of course they're all doing the same thing.
I'm not saying any of the above are sensible. But you CAN do them. You don't HAVE to get an FIS from London Info just because way back your instructor said you did.
You don't have to do this; there are alternatives. You can switch your radio off and not talk to anyone, if that's what you want to do.
If you just think it might be nice to be able to call someone in an emergency, you can tune into a frequency and turn down the volume - London Info, D & D, the nearest big airfield, whatever you like - so that in the event of engine failure or similar you don't have to twiddle any knobs to get out a Mayday. Or you can maintain a listening watch, which means you listen in and might hear useful things about the traffic in your area...unless of course they're all doing the same thing.I'm not saying any of the above are sensible. But you CAN do them. You don't HAVE to get an FIS from London Info just because way back your instructor said you did.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Agree entirely... PPL students are taught to talk to London Info etc etc and most of the time it' s a waste of time because (apart from flight plan foreign trips) almost nobody else talks to them.
If maintaining a listening watch for emergency purposes, why not 121.5? I believe there is guaranteed coverage over the entire mainland over something like 3000ft, and 2000ft in the London TMA region... in practice the system works much lower down. I have also seen airliners (pre-9/11) having the cockpit speaker set to a radio tuned to 121.5 - then you get 100-200nm range
If maintaining a listening watch for emergency purposes, why not 121.5? I believe there is guaranteed coverage over the entire mainland over something like 3000ft, and 2000ft in the London TMA region... in practice the system works much lower down. I have also seen airliners (pre-9/11) having the cockpit speaker set to a radio tuned to 121.5 - then you get 100-200nm range
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 31
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From: UK
I only ever advise people to switch to London Information if i know they will be crossing an area where there is absolutely no other coverage, if they require an Airways joining clearance further along their route or they are en-route to another country.
Listening out to the local airfields frequency is of much more use.
I like one of the ideas raised by the Fly on track team of wearing a specific squawk that indicates you are listening out to the airfields frequency but do not want a service. This allows ATC to contact you in an emergency and lets us know you are maintaining a listening watch.
Listening out to the local airfields frequency is of much more use.
I like one of the ideas raised by the Fly on track team of wearing a specific squawk that indicates you are listening out to the airfields frequency but do not want a service. This allows ATC to contact you in an emergency and lets us know you are maintaining a listening watch.
Northern Monkey
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle, England
I cant understand why anyone would turn the volume down on their radio so they cant hear it, you can talk over a radio transmission on an aircraft intercom, aslong as you listen out to the callsign at the beginning.
However, i often find that listening to others can give you information on the position of other vfr traffic, that you havent been alerted to, because the atc is busy. You would miss out on this if you turned your radio down, so why do it?
NB
However, i often find that listening to others can give you information on the position of other vfr traffic, that you havent been alerted to, because the atc is busy. You would miss out on this if you turned your radio down, so why do it?
NB
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 437
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From: Far East
Interesting replies, thanks. I didn't intend for this to become a London info discusion. Infact I was on Maston radar and going to France so in my case I had no option other option.
I do have a small confesion to make though. A few years back when I was very low on hours / experience, I was flying a C150 and receiving an FIS. At the time, I was nearing the end of what was at the time my longest and most demanding flight, and my pax was asking me where a certain landmark was. Suddenly, I heard my callsign followed by a frantic call and at the same instant my pax pointed out, with a surprising lack of surprise, a bloody great military sea king in my 10 o'clock, very close, same level, heading left to right across my track, entering a very steep desending turn. I didn't quite have to take evasive action, but it was obvious we would have come extremely close or even hit if the sea king hadn't turned. Due to our relative positions, the sea king had been obscured by the port wing on my C150 as we closed.
In short, the military pilot filed an airprox against me, but months later, 'blame' (Airpox reports tend to avoid the word blame, and in any case, who care whose fault it was if you actually have a mid air) was actually directed towards him, since he was undergoing IFR instruction in open FIR and had failed to keep a sufficient look out for his student.
Nevertheless, the incident shook me up, and taught me a few things. Small things that ar wrong with the planes we fly can take up large ammounts of our concentration. I had a slipping throtle (friction nut knackered) and the radios were terrible. These factors combined with flying in an new area at the end of a long flight with a demanding pax all added up.
This is what prompted me to start this thread because I was dissapointed with myself for having missed another traffic call under FIS. At the end of the day though the most important thing is - How good is your lookout?
I do have a small confesion to make though. A few years back when I was very low on hours / experience, I was flying a C150 and receiving an FIS. At the time, I was nearing the end of what was at the time my longest and most demanding flight, and my pax was asking me where a certain landmark was. Suddenly, I heard my callsign followed by a frantic call and at the same instant my pax pointed out, with a surprising lack of surprise, a bloody great military sea king in my 10 o'clock, very close, same level, heading left to right across my track, entering a very steep desending turn. I didn't quite have to take evasive action, but it was obvious we would have come extremely close or even hit if the sea king hadn't turned. Due to our relative positions, the sea king had been obscured by the port wing on my C150 as we closed.
In short, the military pilot filed an airprox against me, but months later, 'blame' (Airpox reports tend to avoid the word blame, and in any case, who care whose fault it was if you actually have a mid air) was actually directed towards him, since he was undergoing IFR instruction in open FIR and had failed to keep a sufficient look out for his student.
Nevertheless, the incident shook me up, and taught me a few things. Small things that ar wrong with the planes we fly can take up large ammounts of our concentration. I had a slipping throtle (friction nut knackered) and the radios were terrible. These factors combined with flying in an new area at the end of a long flight with a demanding pax all added up.
This is what prompted me to start this thread because I was dissapointed with myself for having missed another traffic call under FIS. At the end of the day though the most important thing is - How good is your lookout?
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 71
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From: Chessington, UK
a bloody great military sea king in my 10 o'clock, very close, same level, heading left to right across my track
