When Do I become Responsible?
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When Do I become Responsible?
I have flown for over 25 years now and over the last few with the introduction of FISO's allowed to give instruction on the ground. I am getting more & more frustrated by the antics of these ground based minions (Including those giving RADIO service who are dishing out instructions like ATC. I know there is a White AIC covering this subject but. I would like to know the ACTUAL point I am relieved of all instruction from a FISO. I believe when I am at the hold for the departure runway and have called G XXXX ready for departure, that is the point I assume all responsibility and the FISO must now pass relevant info, and I must state my intentions. I hear pilots being told time & time again having called ready for departure "Hold position" becaus a 150 has just turned downwind & will take another 3-4 mins to arrive,how long could that farce go on?.
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My understanding was that they control you until you pass the holding point for the runway. When you call "ready for departure" you are at the hold, and still under their control - so if they tell you to hold position, you are supposed to do just that.
Once they say "G-CD, surface wind xxx, take off your discretion" then you're in control. They also have the option of giving you traffic information and letting you make up your mind - e.g. "Cessna on 8 mile final, report lining up", to which you would reply "lining up" or "holding"
edit: FWIW, CAP413 says that "G-CD hold position" is an acceptable reply to "G-CD ready for departure"
Once they say "G-CD, surface wind xxx, take off your discretion" then you're in control. They also have the option of giving you traffic information and letting you make up your mind - e.g. "Cessna on 8 mile final, report lining up", to which you would reply "lining up" or "holding"
edit: FWIW, CAP413 says that "G-CD hold position" is an acceptable reply to "G-CD ready for departure"
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That farce can go on for ages... I remember sitting at the hold once in an aeroplane that was costing me £160/hr while 5 or 6 other aircraft were flying circuits. I watched one Tomahawk do 5 touch and goes while I was waiting. It would have cost me £50 had the club not given me a discount.
It's damned annoying, especially when you're not planning to stay in the circuit and when you're flying a powerful aeroplane which doesn't need much of a gap in the traffic to get away.
Having said that, my understanding was that the FISO controlled everything on the ground up to and including the hold - i.e. you need authorisation to pass the hold and enter the runway.
It's damned annoying, especially when you're not planning to stay in the circuit and when you're flying a powerful aeroplane which doesn't need much of a gap in the traffic to get away.
Having said that, my understanding was that the FISO controlled everything on the ground up to and including the hold - i.e. you need authorisation to pass the hold and enter the runway.
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CAP427 contains the following information
______________________________________________________
1.2 Responsibility of a FISO at an Aerodrome
A FISO has the following responsibilities:
(a) Issuing information to aircraft flying in the Aerodrome Traffic Zone (ATZ) to assist pilots in preventing collisions.
(b) Issuing instructions and information to aircraft moving on the manoeuvring area to assist pilots in preventing collisions between aircraft and vehicles and obstructions on the manoeuvring area, or between aircraft moving on the apron.
(c) Issuing instructions to vehicles and persons on the manoeuvring area.
(d) Informing aircraft of essential aerodrome information.
(e) Alerting the safety services.
(f) Initiating overdue action.
During the notified hours of watch of the FISO unit, entry of aircraft into the ATZ to transit or land is subject to the pilot obtaining information from the FISO which will enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety. The movement of aircraft, persons or vehicles on the manoeuvring area and the movement of aircraft on the apron are at all times subject to permission from the FISO acting on behalf of the aerodrome authority. During the notified hours, the frequency must be manned at all times and not left unattended.
________________________________________________
The difficulty with the responsibilities of the FISO as described in CAP427 is that in section 1.2(b) it says that the FISO is responsible for instructions to avoid collisions on the aerodrome surface only.
However in the next paragraph it says that movements on the aerodrome surface at all times are subject to the permission of the FISO.
This is inconsistent and leads to the difficulties outlined in this thread. My view is that when the pilot reports ready for departure and there are no conflicting movements on the airfield (eg a/c vacating or backtracking the runway) the only thing the FISO can say is 'takeoff at your discretion, wind etc' and report any traffic information.
To a/c in the circuit they cannot allocate a landing position in traffic, or issue any other instructions.
______________________________________________________
1.2 Responsibility of a FISO at an Aerodrome
A FISO has the following responsibilities:
(a) Issuing information to aircraft flying in the Aerodrome Traffic Zone (ATZ) to assist pilots in preventing collisions.
(b) Issuing instructions and information to aircraft moving on the manoeuvring area to assist pilots in preventing collisions between aircraft and vehicles and obstructions on the manoeuvring area, or between aircraft moving on the apron.
(c) Issuing instructions to vehicles and persons on the manoeuvring area.
(d) Informing aircraft of essential aerodrome information.
(e) Alerting the safety services.
(f) Initiating overdue action.
During the notified hours of watch of the FISO unit, entry of aircraft into the ATZ to transit or land is subject to the pilot obtaining information from the FISO which will enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety. The movement of aircraft, persons or vehicles on the manoeuvring area and the movement of aircraft on the apron are at all times subject to permission from the FISO acting on behalf of the aerodrome authority. During the notified hours, the frequency must be manned at all times and not left unattended.
________________________________________________
The difficulty with the responsibilities of the FISO as described in CAP427 is that in section 1.2(b) it says that the FISO is responsible for instructions to avoid collisions on the aerodrome surface only.
However in the next paragraph it says that movements on the aerodrome surface at all times are subject to the permission of the FISO.
This is inconsistent and leads to the difficulties outlined in this thread. My view is that when the pilot reports ready for departure and there are no conflicting movements on the airfield (eg a/c vacating or backtracking the runway) the only thing the FISO can say is 'takeoff at your discretion, wind etc' and report any traffic information.
To a/c in the circuit they cannot allocate a landing position in traffic, or issue any other instructions.
Last edited by RodgerF; 9th Sep 2003 at 22:09.
