Advice for trip to Old Warden
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Advice for trip to Old Warden
I am taking my Dad up to Old Warden / Shuttleworth on Monday (from Redhill). I have downloaded the information for pilots from the Shuttlworth web site and given them a call to check that Monday is OK for visiting. I will call again on the day as they are strictly PPR.
After 7 years of flying this trip will include a couple of 'firsts' for me so I thought I would sound you all out for some advice.
The flight will be VFR and the plan is to to route anti-clockwise around London, through the Stapleford ATZ (if they'll let me, otherwise South around the bottom of the zone) and up the VFR route BELOW Stanstead and Luton CTAs. This is the first first. I have downloaded AIC 47/2002 (Pink 31) which gives nice pictures of the VRPs from Getmapping and explains a bit about the airspace. I do not intend to request a clearance to enter the zone itself. The question is, who should I talk to?
The options seem to be:
1. London Information for a basic FIS
2. Essex Radar
3. Luton Approach (neither of whom offer LARS, but might give a RIS, workload permitting?)
4. Brize Norton Radar who do offer a LARS and I would just be inside their 60 NM range (and yes I have noticed the frequency changes at Brize!).
5. Someone else (all ideas welcome)
6. No-one (probably not a good idea in that busy bit of uncontrolled airspace).
There is a risk that I will not have a serviceable transponder, which would rule out a RADAR service anyway.
The second first will be landing at a non-radio airfield. Old Warden Tower is only manned on display days. Is it the done thing to transmit blind, UNICOM style, once in the circuit? Am I likely to have the circuit (airfield?) to myself? I am guessing that Monday is not a busy day.
Coming home I will continue my anti-clockwise circuit, this time West of Luton and LHR and pick up Farnborough RADAR. Familiar territory for me so no probs there.
Final questions relate to the collection itself. We have about 2.5 hours on site. Is that about right? Can anyone suggest the 'must see' exhibits or is it practical to see everything? I would be quite interested to see the vintage cars etc as well as aircraft. The swiss garden and birds of prey can wait for another day!
I know that some pprunes have links with the Collection and / or fly the area regularly, so hopefully I can benefit from your experiences.
Thanks,
Tall_Guy.
After 7 years of flying this trip will include a couple of 'firsts' for me so I thought I would sound you all out for some advice.
The flight will be VFR and the plan is to to route anti-clockwise around London, through the Stapleford ATZ (if they'll let me, otherwise South around the bottom of the zone) and up the VFR route BELOW Stanstead and Luton CTAs. This is the first first. I have downloaded AIC 47/2002 (Pink 31) which gives nice pictures of the VRPs from Getmapping and explains a bit about the airspace. I do not intend to request a clearance to enter the zone itself. The question is, who should I talk to?
The options seem to be:1. London Information for a basic FIS
2. Essex Radar
3. Luton Approach (neither of whom offer LARS, but might give a RIS, workload permitting?)
4. Brize Norton Radar who do offer a LARS and I would just be inside their 60 NM range (and yes I have noticed the frequency changes at Brize!).
5. Someone else (all ideas welcome)
6. No-one (probably not a good idea in that busy bit of uncontrolled airspace).
There is a risk that I will not have a serviceable transponder, which would rule out a RADAR service anyway.
The second first will be landing at a non-radio airfield. Old Warden Tower is only manned on display days. Is it the done thing to transmit blind, UNICOM style, once in the circuit? Am I likely to have the circuit (airfield?) to myself? I am guessing that Monday is not a busy day.
Coming home I will continue my anti-clockwise circuit, this time West of Luton and LHR and pick up Farnborough RADAR. Familiar territory for me so no probs there.
Final questions relate to the collection itself. We have about 2.5 hours on site. Is that about right? Can anyone suggest the 'must see' exhibits or is it practical to see everything? I would be quite interested to see the vintage cars etc as well as aircraft. The swiss garden and birds of prey can wait for another day!
I know that some pprunes have links with the Collection and / or fly the area regularly, so hopefully I can benefit from your experiences.
Thanks,
Tall_Guy.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Biggleswade
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HI Tall_Guy,
I'm pressed for time at the moment, so I'll give you a full reply later today. In the meantime, I've sent you a private message with contact numbers - please give me a ring.
Airbedane
I'm pressed for time at the moment, so I'll give you a full reply later today. In the meantime, I've sent you a private message with contact numbers - please give me a ring.
Airbedane
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To take all your suggestions in order:
1. London Information for a basic FIS - Why? You're not flying over an area where there is no other ATS available. Leave it for the people for whom it is meant - channel / sea crossers plus those trying to get essential information (danger area activity or weather for example) or airways clearances from the open FIR
2. Essex Radar - a possibility, may even get you a transit of CAS at Stansted but dubious without a transponder.
3. Luton Approach (neither of whom offer LARS, but might give a RIS, workload permitting?) - see answer above.
4. Brize Norton Radar who do offer a LARS and I would just be inside their 60 NM range (and yes I have noticed the frequency changes at Brize!). - Forget it. Brize might be promulgated out to 60 miles but a) there are better options in the more immediate area (see answers 2 & 3 above) plus a quick tip on radar performance. Minimum radar cover works out at roughly 1000ft per 10 miles. At Brize's max range of 60nm they can't see a great deal below FL60. The sooner they get that throwback to the days when they were a MATO Radar unit got rid of and they fall in line with other airfield radar units the better!
5. Someone else (all ideas welcome)
6. No-one (probably not a good idea in that busy bit of uncontrolled airspace). - Why isn't it a good idea? How about listen out on Luton or Essex to get the London QNH (so that you make sure you remain below CAS) and look out of the window.
And just what frequency are you going to make these 'blind' calls on? Old Warden doesn't have a full time frequency allocated I think you'll find except for events (but Vintage ATCO can advise better on that one).
1. London Information for a basic FIS - Why? You're not flying over an area where there is no other ATS available. Leave it for the people for whom it is meant - channel / sea crossers plus those trying to get essential information (danger area activity or weather for example) or airways clearances from the open FIR
2. Essex Radar - a possibility, may even get you a transit of CAS at Stansted but dubious without a transponder.
3. Luton Approach (neither of whom offer LARS, but might give a RIS, workload permitting?) - see answer above.
4. Brize Norton Radar who do offer a LARS and I would just be inside their 60 NM range (and yes I have noticed the frequency changes at Brize!). - Forget it. Brize might be promulgated out to 60 miles but a) there are better options in the more immediate area (see answers 2 & 3 above) plus a quick tip on radar performance. Minimum radar cover works out at roughly 1000ft per 10 miles. At Brize's max range of 60nm they can't see a great deal below FL60. The sooner they get that throwback to the days when they were a MATO Radar unit got rid of and they fall in line with other airfield radar units the better!
5. Someone else (all ideas welcome)
6. No-one (probably not a good idea in that busy bit of uncontrolled airspace). - Why isn't it a good idea? How about listen out on Luton or Essex to get the London QNH (so that you make sure you remain below CAS) and look out of the window.
The second first will be landing at a non-radio airfield. Old Warden Tower is only manned on display days. Is it the done thing to transmit blind, UNICOM style, once in the circuit? Am I likely to have the circuit (airfield?) to myself? I am guessing that Monday is not a busy day.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 29th Aug 2003 at 16:28.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chessington, UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another Redhill pilot!
Definitely talk to Essex Radar - it'll make them more comfortable to be in contact with you as you'll be very close to their CTR. You can give Stapleford a courtesy call to let them know you'll be transiting over the top of their ATZ, then call Essex Radar. Don't rule out the possibility of a transit through the south-western part of their CTA - they will give it to you if traffic permits, and it'll allow you to fly a little bit higher. Even just an extra couple of hundred feet makes me feel safer.
The corridor up the middle between Luton and Stansted (*) is a bit bland and featureless in terms of visual navigation references. Keep to your planned heading and you should be fine though. GPS is a bonus!
I don't want to scare you off, but there's one thing that I discovered last time I flew that route that scared the willies out of me when it happened. I posted a thread on the Flyer Forum about it - I urge you to read it because then you'll know to avoid the hazard. (The Forum software has changed since the thread, and it looks like the images aren't working but you can still paste the image URL's into your browser and see what it's talking about.)
(*) Note: there's only one 'A' in Stansted
Definitely talk to Essex Radar - it'll make them more comfortable to be in contact with you as you'll be very close to their CTR. You can give Stapleford a courtesy call to let them know you'll be transiting over the top of their ATZ, then call Essex Radar. Don't rule out the possibility of a transit through the south-western part of their CTA - they will give it to you if traffic permits, and it'll allow you to fly a little bit higher. Even just an extra couple of hundred feet makes me feel safer.
The corridor up the middle between Luton and Stansted (*) is a bit bland and featureless in terms of visual navigation references. Keep to your planned heading and you should be fine though. GPS is a bonus!
I don't want to scare you off, but there's one thing that I discovered last time I flew that route that scared the willies out of me when it happened. I posted a thread on the Flyer Forum about it - I urge you to read it because then you'll know to avoid the hazard. (The Forum software has changed since the thread, and it looks like the images aren't working but you can still paste the image URL's into your browser and see what it's talking about.)
(*) Note: there's only one 'A' in Stansted
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chilli Monster - your response to the Big 152 Flyer came across as a bit blunt - maybe it was intended that way, maybe not. I know about your day job, so understand where you're coming from!
I'm not personally familiar with flying that route, but in general terms I would exhort talking to the person whose airspace you're closest to at any one time, even if you don't want zone penetration. This may just be free calling on their frequency when 20nm out, doing a standard TRPACER call or similar (I'm not going to go into all the arguments about the variations on this!! ) stating intentions, letting them know whether you're squawking or not,and requesting FIS. As you approach a point where you're better off talking to another unit, just say a friendly 'Cheerio' to the ATSU you're working and say 'Hello' to the next one.
That would be my approach and think that it would be well received by the ATSUs involved as it give them one less splodge on their screen to try and second guess. Usually, the ATSU would suggest an appropriate handover at a point when it's convenient to them.
As for the details, a quick scan of your chart will usually indicate key suspects for your comms!
I'm not personally familiar with flying that route, but in general terms I would exhort talking to the person whose airspace you're closest to at any one time, even if you don't want zone penetration. This may just be free calling on their frequency when 20nm out, doing a standard TRPACER call or similar (I'm not going to go into all the arguments about the variations on this!!
) stating intentions, letting them know whether you're squawking or not,and requesting FIS. As you approach a point where you're better off talking to another unit, just say a friendly 'Cheerio' to the ATSU you're working and say 'Hello' to the next one.That would be my approach and think that it would be well received by the ATSUs involved as it give them one less splodge on their screen to try and second guess. Usually, the ATSU would suggest an appropriate handover at a point when it's convenient to them.
As for the details, a quick scan of your chart will usually indicate key suspects for your comms!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiya
Redhill - Old Warden is not a difficult trip, here is what I'd do:
Redhill - Biggin Hill - QE2 bridge - Stapleford - Panshangar - East of Stevenage - Old Warden. Thames Radar (132.7) will give you an FIS round to Stapleford if they aren't busy, don't rely on Stansted giving you a zone transit, and you can more or less forget through the Luton zone, so plan east of Stevenage, check the levels on the chart.
Old Warden is a great airfield which is unlicensed and you need PPR, ring up first - during the week this won't be a problem. The runway looks invitingly long but you can only use the first 600m of runway 21, there is a road that crosses at the end and the extension beyond the road is for display pilots only. The road is active at all other times. Landing runway 03 (i.e. over the extension) can produce turbulence from trees to the left of the approach, esp. with westerly winds. The other thing to point out is that the runway is bumpy.
With regards to blind radio calls, Shuttleworth Radio is 130.7, the blind radio calls are always useful.
Enjoy your day!
Redhill - Old Warden is not a difficult trip, here is what I'd do:
Redhill - Biggin Hill - QE2 bridge - Stapleford - Panshangar - East of Stevenage - Old Warden. Thames Radar (132.7) will give you an FIS round to Stapleford if they aren't busy, don't rely on Stansted giving you a zone transit, and you can more or less forget through the Luton zone, so plan east of Stevenage, check the levels on the chart.
Old Warden is a great airfield which is unlicensed and you need PPR, ring up first - during the week this won't be a problem. The runway looks invitingly long but you can only use the first 600m of runway 21, there is a road that crosses at the end and the extension beyond the road is for display pilots only. The road is active at all other times. Landing runway 03 (i.e. over the extension) can produce turbulence from trees to the left of the approach, esp. with westerly winds. The other thing to point out is that the runway is bumpy.
With regards to blind radio calls, Shuttleworth Radio is 130.7, the blind radio calls are always useful.
Enjoy your day!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the advice so far. It seems I am spoilt for choice, which makes me feel better for not spotting a single definitive answer to my question in advance!
Chili
I had assumed that Shuttleworth Radio was permanently allocated, albeit unmanned. I will check.
dmjw
I will have a handheld GPS with the key waypoints & VRPs programmed (unlikely that I will use it unless my dead reckoning skills let me down).
Going OVER the Stapleford zone and then getting UNDER the Stansted CTA may be a bit too exciting for my Dad! Hence my choice of going through or around.
Circuit Basher
No offence taken at Chilli's bluntness. I wouldn't have asked the qustion if I didn't want some answers!
Courtman
That is exactly the route I intend. I will watch out for the bumpy runway!
So far it looks like my comms will be:
Redhill TWR > Stapleford Info > Essex RADAR (to announce my presence and listen out).
TallGuy
Keep it coming.
Chili
I had assumed that Shuttleworth Radio was permanently allocated, albeit unmanned. I will check.
dmjw
I will have a handheld GPS with the key waypoints & VRPs programmed (unlikely that I will use it unless my dead reckoning skills let me down).
Going OVER the Stapleford zone and then getting UNDER the Stansted CTA may be a bit too exciting for my Dad! Hence my choice of going through or around.
Circuit Basher
No offence taken at Chilli's bluntness. I wouldn't have asked the qustion if I didn't want some answers!
Courtman
That is exactly the route I intend. I will watch out for the bumpy runway!
So far it looks like my comms will be:
Redhill TWR > Stapleford Info > Essex RADAR (to announce my presence and listen out).
TallGuy
Keep it coming.
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Courtman said, give Thames Radar a call as you go up past the QEII Bridge (you're right under the approach to London City at that point assuming a westerly wind) and then switch to Stapleford as you get near Brentwood.
It's a pretty straightforward journey - apart from anything else you have the M25 to follow for a large part of the way!
It's a pretty straightforward journey - apart from anything else you have the M25 to follow for a large part of the way!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Midlands
Age: 71
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Warden
Call the shop on 01767 627288 for airfield information - effectively a written brief that wll be read out to you over the phone.
You will be speaking to non pilots.
You will be told about other visiting aircraft/ times etc.
Ensure that you do the mandatory circuit in order to clear the model fliers who invariably congregate next to the tower.
130.70 is unmanned other than on display days but it is of course good practise to make advisory calls.
2 1/2 hours is sufficent to have a real good look around the museum.
Enjoy 'Bloke Heaven'!!
Please join the SVAS while you are there.
HP
You will be speaking to non pilots.
You will be told about other visiting aircraft/ times etc.
Ensure that you do the mandatory circuit in order to clear the model fliers who invariably congregate next to the tower.
130.70 is unmanned other than on display days but it is of course good practise to make advisory calls.
2 1/2 hours is sufficent to have a real good look around the museum.
Enjoy 'Bloke Heaven'!!
Please join the SVAS while you are there.
HP
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SX in SX in UK
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you go IFR you won't go far wrong.
IFR = I follow Roads. Keep the M25 on your left, call Stapleford to let them know you are coming through, turn right at the Lea Valley Lakes.
Be very aware of the 1500' height restriction below Stansted as you track north to Ware, its worth following the by-pass there, no point in annoying the locals. Then if you keep Stevenage & the A1 on your left, Shuttleworth will appear on you left .
IFR = I follow Roads. Keep the M25 on your left, call Stapleford to let them know you are coming through, turn right at the Lea Valley Lakes.
Be very aware of the 1500' height restriction below Stansted as you track north to Ware, its worth following the by-pass there, no point in annoying the locals. Then if you keep Stevenage & the A1 on your left, Shuttleworth will appear on you left .
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely talk to Essex Radar - it'll make them more comfortable to be in contact with you as you'll be very close to their CTR
aceatco, retired
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Further to what HP has posted about joining SVAS (which is a worthy cause in itself!) you will also have free landing fees!
Shuttleworth Pageant on 7 Sep. Come and celebrate 75 years of Shuttleworth and 100 years of Flight. Not to be missed!!
Maybe a surprise. . . .
VA
I`ll add that you can also call Nweald radio 123.52 to let them know you are in the vicinity, in case there are any jets in the circuit.
Then call Luton near Ware, squawk 4660; they usually give a "heads-up" about Panshanger traffic, If you remain at 1400QNH you should be OK, and Luton usually clear you"not abov 2400 H", E of Stevenage.
Then call Luton near Ware, squawk 4660; they usually give a "heads-up" about Panshanger traffic, If you remain at 1400QNH you should be OK, and Luton usually clear you"not abov 2400 H", E of Stevenage.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Biggleswade
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tall Guy,
I know we spoke, but I must give a global reply for everyone elses benefit.
Both Hairyplane and Vintage ATCO are familiar with Old Warden and therefore, know the ropes. If you're going to fly-in, make sure you get ppr from the shop (01767 627288) and ensure you do a full overhead join - see safety sense leaflet "Airfield Sense" - its on the CAA web site, if you haven't seen it before.
Blind calls are always a good idea; it keeps others infirmed as to what you are doing. Finally, keep a good lookout, you never know who else might be joining the circuit.
Enjoy your day at Old Warden,
Best Wishes,
Airbedane
Tall_Guy,
I know we spoke this evening, but for everyone elses beneit, here goes......
Both Hairyplane and Vintage ATCO are familiar with Old Warden, do heed what they say
Ensure you get PPR from the Shuttleworth Shop - 01767 627288 - and listen to the brief. If you're not sure of an overhead rejoin, see the Safety Sense leaflet on the CAA web site - Airfield Sense.
Blind calls are always worthwhile - they let other know whats going on.
Finally, enjoy your day,
VBW,
Airbedane.
I know we spoke, but I must give a global reply for everyone elses benefit.
Both Hairyplane and Vintage ATCO are familiar with Old Warden and therefore, know the ropes. If you're going to fly-in, make sure you get ppr from the shop (01767 627288) and ensure you do a full overhead join - see safety sense leaflet "Airfield Sense" - its on the CAA web site, if you haven't seen it before.
Blind calls are always a good idea; it keeps others infirmed as to what you are doing. Finally, keep a good lookout, you never know who else might be joining the circuit.
Enjoy your day at Old Warden,
Best Wishes,
Airbedane
Tall_Guy,
I know we spoke this evening, but for everyone elses beneit, here goes......
Both Hairyplane and Vintage ATCO are familiar with Old Warden, do heed what they say
Ensure you get PPR from the Shuttleworth Shop - 01767 627288 - and listen to the brief. If you're not sure of an overhead rejoin, see the Safety Sense leaflet on the CAA web site - Airfield Sense.
Blind calls are always worthwhile - they let other know whats going on.
Finally, enjoy your day,
VBW,
Airbedane.
aceatco, retired
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: one airshow or another
Posts: 1,431
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I think everything has been said but having re-read the thread I see there was some debate about whether OW's freq is permanently allocated or just for display days. 130.7 MHz is ours all the time, just not always manned, so make blind calls on it. The modellers do not listen to it but are very good and when they see you joining the circuit will stop flying, that's why a standard overhead join is essential.
130.7 use to be Bedford Thurleigh for those that can remember that far back. It hasn't moved far!!
VA
130.7 use to be Bedford Thurleigh for those that can remember that far back. It hasn't moved far!!
VA
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
V-ATCO
Thanks for the confirmation.
I'm all set to go now and looking forward to my day out (not to mention a day off work).
Only the weather or a sick aircraft can stop me now ....
TG.
I'm all set to go now and looking forward to my day out (not to mention a day off work).
Only the weather or a sick aircraft can stop me now ....
TG.
sua cuique voluptas
My thanks to Vintage ATCO and others for a "heads up" on the Shuttleworth 75 day of vintage flight.
Recovering from a cold and not fit to fly I & Mrs.Ripline spent a very happy day today wandering along the flightline and admiring all the empty hangars - they really did have everything out on the field!
Superb, safe and effective flying on display as well. The streamer-cutting-with-prop, balloon bursting, flour bombing and the limbo streamer exhibitions were exceptionally good entertainment, I thought.
Private visitors included a couple of microlights and an R22 in the park. Genghis and Whirly? No way for me to tell! Maybe there should be a PPrune totem pole somewhere near the control tower of these events so we can congregate - you can only spend so much time looking at people's clothes to spot a PPrune badge before getting funny looks......
Ripline
Recovering from a cold and not fit to fly I & Mrs.Ripline spent a very happy day today wandering along the flightline and admiring all the empty hangars - they really did have everything out on the field!
Superb, safe and effective flying on display as well. The streamer-cutting-with-prop, balloon bursting, flour bombing and the limbo streamer exhibitions were exceptionally good entertainment, I thought.
Private visitors included a couple of microlights and an R22 in the park. Genghis and Whirly? No way for me to tell! Maybe there should be a PPrune totem pole somewhere near the control tower of these events so we can congregate - you can only spend so much time looking at people's clothes to spot a PPrune badge before getting funny looks......
Ripline