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When you read of all the issues that arise, you have to wonder about the lack of people skills!
I was yelled at by a Flight Attendant (on a flight across the US) when I stood up to retrieve a book from the overhead locker. Unbeknown to me, one of the pilots had left the flight deck to use the bathroom. Apparently I was supposed to remain alert for this situation, and also know I wasn't allowed to move a muscle whilst this toilet break took place! I guess I should be thankful I wasn't put in a headlock and arrested. :uhoh: |
This is an appalling incident. Absolutely incredulously appalling . United has no leg to stand on and has apologized. There is however nothing that can be done to bring this animal back to life and no remedy to alleviate the tragedy in the eyes of a young girl who will forever remember this tragic occurence.
United should pay a VERY LARGE SUM to the family for their grief and take steps to ensure this does not happen again EVER. NO dragging passengers off planes who are ticketed and let on board, no putting in pets in overhead bins PERIOD. The Cabin crew responsible should not only be fired but also should be charged to the full extent of the law allowed for animal cruelty . Plus she or he is not a very bright or compassionate human being. Never had a pet of her/his own perhaps. |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10084105)
Would the dog have died if it hadn't been placed in a minimally ventilation overhead?
189 animals died on commercial flights from June 2005 to June 2011; of those animals, 98 — more than half — were brachycephalic breeds. ... it's possible being in the bin had nothing to do with the death of the dog. That said, there's no way the dog should have been in the overhead. |
And about the barking story told by the seven year old... if the dog was barking, everyone around would have heard it, and everyone would know the FA put it in the overhead bin.
Now, given the outrage on display here, are you telling me nobody on that plane took any action? Nobody protested? Nobody took the dog out? Smells like bovine excrement to me. |
Megan The question you're avoiding is: Would the dog have died if it hadn't been placed in a minimally ventilation overhead? |
Interesting snippet from Lufthansa's website
"The following additional requirement applies to the transport container for the carriage of snub-nosed animals as excess baggage in the air-conditioned cargo hold: the size of the transport container must be chosen so that there is at least a 10-cm distance between the standing animal and the container walls and roof." |
The regualtions are pretty clear where as the dog should have been in the Cargo Hold or not from the beginning. The FA made the wrong call here, and I doubt that she didn't know there was a dog in the bag.
BUT, it's the owners responsibility to know the breed of the dog and how it behaves and reacts to certain situations. Ultimately, if there was a slightest chance of this going wrong and the dog getting hurt in any way I personally would never take my dog on the flight in the first place. You have a responsibility to feed the dog at home, to take care of it needs and so on - why does this not apply here? The owner is always responisble in the end. If not for the regulations, then atleast for the dogs health and safety... |
It is highly questionable if the dog should have been accepted for travel in the first place. We already know short nosed breeds have issues travelling as cargo, hence they should be Pet in Cabin, having said that, Pugs, Peeks just about fit in the flexible bags under the seat, unless it is a pup, I doubt a French Bull Dog would fit without a loot of squashing and you can't blame the pet for barking. Was the dog shown at check in? or was it on the lead and the staff shown an empty bag? I have personally seen pax moved around so these dog issues can be resolved, but on a full aircraft its tough. In any event, putting a live animal in the OHB is reckless. Quote: "We have learned that the customer did tell the flight attendant that there was a dog in the carrier. However, our flight attendant did not hear or understand her, and did not knowingly place the dog in the overhead bin," United said in the statement. "As we stated, we take full responsibility and are deeply sorry for this tragic accident."
Incidentally, we do not allow pet in cabin and baby to travel in the same row. |
There is no evidence to indicate that the family knew that being forced to put their beloved pet in his carrier in the overhead locker would prove fatal to him.
They probably thought that he would have been uncomfortable, but if they'd had any idea of the risk to his life, they would surely have put up a stronger argument - although that's pretty risky on UA with its record of forcible removals. That picture of the deceased puppy with his little paw raised in a final pathetic struggle to escape from his incarceration is truly heartbreaking. French Bulldogs suffer separation anxiety more than other breeds and the distress this poor animal suffered was truly appalling. Maggie Gremminger did a good job in publicising this event to the media. |
Originally Posted by Avenger
(Post 10084340)
It is highly questionable if the dog should have been accepted for travel in the first place. We already know short nosed breeds have issues travelling as cargo, hence they should be Pet in Cabin, having said that, Pugs, Peeks just about fit in the flexible bags under the seat, unless it is a pup, I doubt a French Bull Dog would fit without a loot of squashing and you can't blame the pet for barking. Was the dog shown at check in? or was it on the lead and the staff shown an empty bag? I have personally seen pax moved around so these dog issues can be resolved, but on a full aircraft its tough. In any event, putting a live animal in the OHB is reckless. Quote: "We have learned that the customer did tell the flight attendant that there was a dog in the carrier. However, our flight attendant did not hear or understand her, and did not knowingly place the dog in the overhead bin," United said in the statement. "As we stated, we take full responsibility and are deeply sorry for this tragic accident."
Incidentally, we do not allow pet in cabin and baby to travel in the same row. I wonder why the FA failed to understand the family's protests about the dog? Was there a comprehension issue, ie the family speaking imperfect English? As for taking the dog down from the locker - the flight was apparently turbulent (according to the child) which suggests the 'fasten seat belts' sign would still be on. UA's well-known attitude to customer 'service' probably makes many passengers deeply nervous about disobeying. |
In this instance, the airline has accepted responsibility, accepted their member of staff was at fault and accepted they were therefore 100% in the wrong. To therefore continue to suggest on this thread otherwise is absurd.
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I doubt whether the puppy's death was the result of oxygen deprivation, which I agree is unlikely, but separation anxiety, terror and stress probably caused heart failure, poor little chap.
From CBS: Retired airline captain Denny Kelly says the pitch-black overhead bin is dangerous for any live animal. "There is no circulation at all in there," Kelly said. "They're scared, their heart rate goes up and they use more oxygen. And there's not enough oxygen in the first place, that just makes it worse." |
My main concern is that in the event of an evacuation the requirement to leave all belongings behind will be completely ignored by the pet owners and people would be vying with animals in boxes to escape.
It's a fundamental safety issue. |
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 10084471)
I doubt whether the puppy's death was the result of oxygen deprivation, which I agree is unlikely, but separation anxiety, terror and stress probably caused heart failure, poor little chap.
totally with you here old chap - you and a few others are about the only ones who has shown much compassion here for either dog and/or family or both the rest is pure nonsense and half baked theory and wild suppositions |
Only animals in the cabin should be seeing eye dogs. All the others AVIH. We don’t have all this drama in Oz thanks to sensible rules.
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If the pic of the dog carrier next to the pram a few pages back is the actual bag then how the hell was it meant to breath in the first place as I don't see any ventilation holes in it.
A woman with an infant and an 8 year old will come with a heap of hand luggage, nappies, toys etc. so maybe she had already filled the spaces under her and the child's seat and had tried to get away with the dog being in the aisle. I feel sorry for both the family and the FA but I think the real blame lies with the fact that you can have an animal in the cabin in the first place. Imagine the drama at the escape slide with the pax lining up with dogs, cats, pigs and peacocks (WTF is with that anyway?). I would be pretty p1ssed if I died because of an animal slowing the process down. |
From Flyer Talk:
On Monday night, a 10-month-old French Bulldog puppy died on a United Airlines flight #1284 after a flight attendant forced the dog to spend a three-hour flight from Houston to New York in the overhead bin. "I want to help this woman and her daughter. They lost their dog because of an United flight attendant. My heart is broken." MaggieGremminger (@MaggieGrem) March 13, 2018 Maggie Gremminger, a passenger on the flight, released this account of the events: I was in seat 24A, the woman (mother) was 23C, with her young teenage daughter in seat 23B. The mother had a young daughter and a newborn. I was sitting in the row behind the woman with the dog, and the gentleman next to me witnessed it all as well. We both overheard/saw the interaction between the flight attendant and the passenger. I witnessed a United flight attendant instruct a woman to put her dog carrier with live dog in an overhead bin. The passenger adamantly pushed back, sharing verbally that her dog was in the bag. The flight attendant continued to ask the passenger to do it, and she eventually complied. By the end of the flight, the dog was dead. The woman was crying in the airplane aisle on the floor. A fellow passenger offered to hold the newborn while the mother was crying on the floor aisle with the dog. it was this out of body experience of grief. But holy **** I don’t know how the hell this happened. The flight attendant wouldn’t even NEED to hear there was a dog in the carrier. She was right there looking at the TSA approved bag. (The dog carrier is the black on the ground in the photo. It is clearly a carrier with mesh, which makes me question how the flight attendant could say she didn’t know there was a dog) I feel angry and powerless and regretful. I know clearly this was not an intent of anyone and yet that flight attendant is responsible for this. How were we to know that maybe there wasn’t a new ventilation system in those bins? It’s not our job to know this information. I understand emotional distress in a different way right now. I can’t get the image out of my head of the woman on the floor of the airplane aisle, crying and holding that sweet dog. Immediately after the flight landed, myself and another witness stayed to speak with various United employees. The flight attendant denied knowing it was a dog, but the man seated next to me said he heard the flight attendant respond to the passenger “you need to put your dog up here” – therefore admitting that she knew an animal was in there. Additionally, I’ve been in touch with United via private message on Twitter. They publicly replied asking me to message them – once private messaging them I shared my confirmation # and flight info. They replied: “We appreciate you reaching out with more information. Please know that we are in contact with the passenger and thank you for bringing this to our attention.” I also was offered $75 in credit (along with the gentleman witness) for staying and working with them to share our recollection of events. We both refused the credit. United has released the following statement: This was a tragic accident that should never have occurred, as pets should never be placed in the overhead bin. We assume full responsibility for this tragedy and express our deepest condolences to the family and are committed to supporting them. We are thoroughly investigating what occurred to prevent this from ever happening again. This is the second time the airline has been in recent news because of the fate of an animal on one of their flights. Last year, a dog died while being shipped via their PetSafe cargo service. |
Originally Posted by Zombywoof
(Post 10084046)
Of course I do. I also have compassion for the FA who is being hung out to dry. How do you know it's not the family who is lying, not the FA?
The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state). So should the captain, because as we are repeatedly told the captain has absolute authority over, and thus absolute responsibility for everything that happens on his/her aeroplane. And then the family shgould sue the airline, the captain and the FA for the personal pain and suffering resulting from the unlawful torture and execution of their beloved pet. I would assume that the american legal system will award judgements of the order of $500m against each defendant in such a case (based on my extensive study of legal documentaries like LA Law and Suits). Or is this just another case where the airline and the pilots claim that no matter what happened it was always someone else's fault? I'm amazed so many can pass a class-1 medical despite apparently lacking a spine... PDR |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10084536)
The fact that this allegedly dogless bag barked continuously until it died
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"I want to help this woman and her daughter. They lost their dog because of an United flight attendant. My heart is broken." MaggieGremminger (@MaggieGrem).
Can't help but feel that its a shame that MaggieGremminger (who by her own admission was in the row behind) sat there for three hours and did nothing. Sometimes, if you're not prepared to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem. |
Originally Posted by Thud105
(Post 10084550)
Can't help but feel that its a shame that MaggieGremminger (who by her own admission was in the row behind) sat there for three hours and did nothing. Sometimes, if you're not prepared to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
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The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state). HOUSTON, Texas (KTRK) -- The Harris County Animal Cruelty Task Force is investigating the death of a dog on a recent flight from Houston. The District Attorney's Office told Eyewitness News they could file charges based on the findings of the investigation. |
Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
(Post 10084111)
When you read of all the issues that arise, you have to wonder about the lack of people skills!
I was yelled at by a Flight Attendant (on a flight across the US) when I stood up to retrieve a book from the overhead locker. Unbeknown to me, one of the pilots had left the flight deck to use the bathroom. Apparently I was supposed to remain alert for this situation, and also know I wasn't allowed to move a muscle whilst this toilet break took place! |
Really?
Originally Posted by Zombywoof
(Post 10084558)
Exactly. Not to mention the rest of the pax. Cowards the lot of them.
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10084085)
Absolutely no sympathy at all, given the breed of dog
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10084129)
The woman had gone through the necessary process to carry an emotional support animal? If not, I don't see that the condition of carriage allow the animal to be in the cabin.
Straight from the horse's mouth at United's published terms: United allows domesticated cats, dogs, rabbits and household birds (excluding cockatoos) to travel accompanied in the aircraft cabin on most flights within the U.S. An in-cabin pet may be carried in addition to a carry-on bag and is subject to a $125 service charge each way. There is an additional $125 service charge for each stopover of more than four hours within the U.S. or more than 24 hours outside of the U.S. |
Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials
(Post 10084746)
Straight from the horse's mouth at United's published terms:
A pet traveling in cabin must be carried in an approved hard-sided or soft-sided kennel. The kennel must fit completely under the seat in front of the customer and remain there at all times. United chose to not make such a distinction, took this customer's money, and grossly failed to provide the service for which they were paid. |
Zombywoof, your ridiculous posts are either through sheer ignorance or deliberate trolling:
...the owner refused to do this... |
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 10084997)
There is NO evidence to support that comment.
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Originally Posted by clareprop
(Post 10085011)
Yes..and a moron who can't be bothered to read the facts as they've been shown about five times. Which bit of 'we accept full responsibility' can't you get your thick head around?
As for "we accept full responsibility", what do you expect them to say after worldwide publicity? Damage control. The owner has responsibility here, whether you want to admit it or not. |
+1 for Clareprop
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I expect this entire ad hominem exchange to be deleted shortly, so let me just sum up the thread:
Bad, bad UAL. Bad, bad FA. Dog owner= candidate for sainthood. Is that about right? |
Originally Posted by bront
(Post 10084507)
If the pic of the dog carrier next to the pram a few pages back is the actual bag then how the hell was it meant to breath in the first place as I don't see any ventilation holes in it.
A woman with an infant and an 8 year old will come with a heap of hand luggage, nappies, toys etc. so maybe she had already filled the spaces under her and the child's seat and had tried to get away with the dog being in the aisle. I feel sorry for both the family and the FA but I think the real blame lies with the fact that you can have an animal in the cabin in the first place. Imagine the drama at the escape slide with the pax lining up with dogs, cats, pigs and peacocks (WTF is with that anyway?). I would be pretty p1ssed if I died because of an animal slowing the process down. http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225...BX2ysQ0W9g.jpg or http://www.wilko.com/content/ebiz/wi...0313616_m2.jpg Clearly these carriers are ventilated. The passenger would have had access to both her own seat space and her daughter's. If the spaces were filled with other baggage, it's obvious that the other stuff should have gone in the overhead locker, not the dog. I doubt very much that the dog was the passenger's first choice. |
Originally Posted by PDR1
(Post 10084536)
The fact that this allegedly dogless bag barked continuously until it died must have been a bit of a clue, surely? Or are you saying that the typical United FA has the intellect of a 3-day old cheese sandwich?
The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state). So should the captain, because as we are repeatedly told the captain has absolute authority over, and thus absolute responsibility for everything that happens on his/her aeroplane. And then the family shgould sue the airline, the captain and the FA for the personal pain and suffering resulting from the unlawful torture and execution of their beloved pet. I would assume that the american legal system will award judgements of the order of $500m against each defendant in such a case (based on my extensive study of legal documentaries like LA Law and Suits). Or is this just another case where the airline and the pilots claim that no matter what happened it was always someone else's fault? I'm amazed so many can pass a class-1 medical despite apparently lacking a spine... PDR It breaks my heart that a dog was stuffed in an overhead locker, it’s not right, but if the dog shouldn’t have been on the plane in the first place, the owner has to shoulder some blame. |
United Airlines does not stipulate limitations on the carriage of brachycephalic dogs such as Frenchies. His carriage was fully within the airline's terms.
I doubt whether the owners knew about the health risk to their puppy posed by flying. Modern airliners fly with a greater cabin pressure than those of earlier generations, so cabin altitude is likely to pose less of a risk than hitherto. The agony and fear suffered by this poor little dog before he gave up his struggle for life must have been truly horrific. The family would have been traumatised and perhaps even the FA might have been shocked when she realised what her cruelty had caused, but neither suffered the fate of that poor defenceless little animal. I hope that there's someone with a big enough heart in the USA who will offer a new French Bulldog puppy to that distraught young girl. |
Does anyone have stats on the number of pets who die in flight while travelling in the cabin?
Perhaps I'm wildly adrift of the facts, but I imagine most of the deaths that do occur, happen when the animal is in the hold, alone and unmonitored. |
Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials
(Post 10084741)
Isn't it reasonable to assume that if an airline offers to the market, "bring X on the plane" as a service for sale, it's the airline's job to understanding what kinds of X can and cannot be safely transported, and making that clear? Where do you expect the expertise to reside, regarding what kinds of cargo, live or otherwise, can safely be carried: with the airline or with the shipper? Some other airlines have specified that certain breeds of dogs cannot safely fly and do not allow them. United chose to not make such a distinction, took this customer's money, and grossly failed to provide the service for which they were paid.
slight thread drift but IIRC, many, many years ago an airline, which one I can't remember, brought into LGW (I think) a large Alsatian in a crate.. Just they'd lost the paperwork .. and no-one knew who the dog belonged to so they couldn't contact them. The dog was extremely unfriendly and couldn't even be approached, let alone allowed out of the crate, so couldn't be given any exercise until someone remembered that 'old Fred' was 'good with dogs'. And Fred came over, made friends with the dog and even managed to take it out for walks on the airfield. A few days later a guy turned up and said "Hi, I'm here to collect my Siberian wolf" ... |
The doggy, a breed with physically restricted nasal passages, was clearly stressed by being alone in a dark environment, but hypoxia or asphyxia is a relatively painless way to go. There was a gradual loss of oxygen. You pass out and expire. It is not like physical suffocation, such as strangling, or even drowning for that matter. Who knew the overhead compartments were air-tight anyway ? Or are they not air-tight ?
And if they are air-tight, why ? https://i.imgur.com/tYHw8nI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ceFKkGc.jpg |
Well, since a second dog was placed on the wrong United Airlines aircraft this week and the an unscheduled landing was made in Akron, Ohio to save the day. Maybe United Airlines needs to check animals in like humans, boarding pass, etc. :sad:
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Originally Posted by evansb
(Post 10086536)
Who knew the overhead compartments were air-tight anyway ? Or are they not air-tight ?
And if they are air-tight, why ? Nice archive photos, BTW. But the sprog is not exactly cooped up in the bin with a shed load of pax carryons, is it? Simpler times, for sure. But back then, people had to pay real money to fly, or so I’m told. :) |
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