Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag.

I also have occasionally broken the speed limit whilst driving.

That is equally selfish in that it puts others at risk for personal gain.

Aluminium Shuffler. and other outraged buggers. Have you ever been done for speeding? If so, then back in your box you sanctimonious gits.

I also drive a car that uses a ridiculous amount of fuel for my entertainment, thus destroying the environment causing untold misery for future generations.
I guess I'm a bad person.

I am amazed every time this argument comes up! I was cabin crew for two years, my wife has twenty years in with another airline, and we were both told in training that when you're on a passenger seat, be it for pleasure, for business or deadheading, in or out of uniform, put your book down and afford your colleagues the courtesy of listening to the demo. You're not going to learn anything from it (we can recite those things verbatim!) but that act may just prompt the person sitting next to you to do the same. (Trust me, we actually do fly more than you.)

If it comes to an evacuation (and we all hope it doesn't) Trossie sums it up perfectly above: Someone with a lot more knowledge of the situation than you has made that decision. Get out! Leave everything behind and get out. If you're messing about with your bag you're slowing things down. With cooperation and all exits usable we can get you all out in 90 seconds or less.

When you reach the bottom of the slide, if you have two hands free you can help others not blessed with the same degree of mobility as you. (And I don't mean with their carry ons!) We all know that in an evac the probability of injuries is high. People fall - it happens. Have two hands free and without endangering yourself be ready to help someone who may have fallen to prevent a build up behind.

I will concede one point though. While the airlines continue to charge for checked baggage they are driving more and more into the cabin as carry on.

Tourist, that's all well and good of you not to hold anyone up whilst you rummage through the bins but whet then? Then you (maybe not you but others definitely) hold the bag in such a way that it takes up standing room that someone could have used thus preventing them from getting out for a couple more seconds as your bag makes its way through the exit.
What happens when you drop it and people start tripping over it causing everyone behind to get stuck and die from smoke inhalation?
What happens when someone else with an even bigger bag sees you taking your bag out the bin and thinks they can do the same but holds people up?
What happens when the smouldering fire that you couldn't see because you were on the wrong side of the cabin suddenly erupts and those few seconds delay you caused mean a couple of people die?


Selfish is all it is. If the crew say get out now and leave stuff behind, guess why they say it?

If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall, and there's no visible damage to the cowling in the photo at the start of the thread, then why not evacuate from the starboard side.


If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall and there's no visible damage, WHY EVACUATE? Evacuating an intact, undamaged airplane is just asking for trouble. :ugh:

"hassle of taking said laptop is considerably less than that of leaving & losing"

But if you stay and die as a result, then you have lost it anyway, as well as everything you ever owned or might have owned in the future.

I have today just completed a Fire and Smoke refresher course. In the classroom part of it, we watched the video showing what happened during the Manchester Airtours disaster. Watch that then tell me its acceptable to delay, even for a second, to getting your precious f£&@ing laptop. It's not sanctimoniousness, it's a matter of life and death. And, Tourist, you are not a bad person for driving a big car and I have been known to speed occasionally too, but you are an arrogant arse for thinking you know better than the professionals responsible for your safety.

Jump Complete

"I have been known to speed occasionally too"

"but you are an arrogant arse for thinking you know better than the professionals responsible for your safety"

Oh the irony

Absolutely.

And while we're at it, a couple of prosecutions of any thieving gits who subequently liberate high-value items that have been left behind by those passengers who have exercised responsibility and consideration and left their carry-ons in the locker.

It's a shame that professional pilots are not as clairvoyant as Cokney Steve or Tourist, who seem to know by divine inspiration when to ignore emergency instructions. In addition to the custodial sentence, perhaps a lifetime ban on flying with any airline would also be appropriate. For those two, and others making similar arguments, it's a shame they can't be identified by the ISPs and banned now before they do kill another passenger.

When things go wrong, every split second makes the difference. I suggest the pair of you have a look for footage of the Chinese 737 that went up at Okinawa. That was only half full. Imagine twice the number of passengers, but half the exit rate because of people clogging up the aisle and exits with hld alls and backpacks.

An evacuation may or may not have been warranted in this case. I'm not going t second guess the crew - none of us should do that because we don't know what information they had at the time. But evacuations are not initiated lightly, and each should be treated as the utmost emergency. Ill-informed second guessing and selfish disobedience by greedy passengers is a massive threat to life. Perhaps, since it seems to be so deliberate rather than panic induced, as demonstrated by our respondents above, it should be treated as attempted murder?

The best solution IMHO is mandate an automatic locking mechanism for the overhead bins linked to the fasten seatbelt sign, with a manual override the CC can use in cases where somebody has left medication or whatever inside.

The only people qualified to decide how serious the situation is are sitting in the flight deck with a headset on. What if it was an APU fire? Pax wouldn't have a clue. Just get up and get the :mad: off the airplane, helping your fellow pax do the same along the way.

Think of it this way, what if your bag contains your duty free and that spills out at the bottom of the slide breaking and puncturing the slide or injuring those following you?

Una Due Tfc, absolutely, or another example would be the same 737 burn-out where the pax would initially have been unable to see the fire start on the gear. Some did take bags in that event, but not most and they were lucky with having a low pax count.

Incidentally, for those criticising the crew for not being outside marshalling the passengers away in a safe direction, they were still inside getting the morons and their bags out - the crew have to get everyone else out before leaving, whether all of those passengers deserve the help or not. As for the lack of fire crews, they don't arrive the instant the problem arises, but if you have a method of time travel that allows emergency services to react and accident site as the event occurs, I'm sure you can make a lot of money from it.:ugh:

Tourist

Having reviewed a little of your posting history, I am ashamed to have to concede you may possibly be a pilot of some description..

Doesn't stop you being an arrogant ignorant and stupid tw@t though!

Tourist; I see the point you're trying to make (about speeding) but I do think there IS a difference between drifting over the limit on an open road (which is what I'm talking about) and second guessing the crew who certainly know more about the situation than you, and may DIE because they are on the aircraft just that bit longer trying to get muppets like you off. Think about it, no matter how often you fly, you are unlikely to experience a situation like this. Lets be clear, if the crew order an emergency evacuation, it will only because it has been assessed as potentially life threatening to stay onboard a moment longer than necessary. We will call for an emergency evacuation knowing that people will get hurt but that it is the lesser of two evils. In that context, tell me again how inconvenient it will be to loose your laptop?

Two points:
1 - How many people have been killed by failing to leave their cabin bags behind during an evacuation?

2 - The only way to really solve the problem is for ICAO to mandate that the only items that may be brought into the cabin are hand/shoulder bags - no cabin bags and no use of the overhead lockers, handbags to be of a specified size and kept with the passenger.

Passengers in the cabin, luggage in the hold. Easy.

The stuffed carryon problem has got out of hand

People stuff their carryons because they cannot get insurance replacement

They cannot get insurance replacement because the loss ratio is sky-high

The loss ratio is sky high because the industry has given "security" and baggage handlers a license to steal. Not to speak of all the pickpockets who congregate around the X-ray devices where they can get at the valuables most easily.

Fix the above, and I'll be glad to get aboard a plane in a paper kimono, with just an ipad and my passport and credit cards. The camera set, computer etc can go in the hold. Most pro photographers I know transport at least $100K of equipment. With a 1% loss rate, that means you would "lose" it once every year if you take two flights a week.

Rather than threaten the paying customers, why not threaten the staff whose outrageous behavior is causing the runaway handbag issue - or would you pilots accept finding that half the instruments have been stolen out of your cockpit, and the fuel indicators have been messed with so your tanks are half empty?

I do tend to agree that the airlines have been a big factor in this.

Lower bag weights in holds.
Slow getting bags afterwards
Theft from bags in holds
Theft of goods after a crash
Bigger OH Bins.

@Tourist
 

"Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag."

I have not been in an aircraft fire but I have been in a flat when a fire started. I have seen with my own eyes, and smelt with my own nostrils, how it's the smoke that gets you, not the fire. And you have seconds. Oh OK, minutes if you like - two or three minutes tops. I've no problem if you want to play chicken with your own life by retrieving your bag, but you cannot do that without risking others, which you have no right to do.

Logical arguments are fine. Judgements are fine, but we must recognise how real people behave in real situations.

Just out of interest
 

Sooooooo, heard a lot of stuff on here.
Is there much/any evidence of personal items being pilfered/stolen from aircraft that have had to evacuate??
Concrete evidence, from YOUR experience, not second hand ("I had a friend who...")
As I say, just curious.....

"Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag.""

Like the bloke on QF32 ?

From memory didn't one of the CC take the bag and throw it across the cabin when the passenger didn't comply with instructions ?????

There is one further reason why all the doors were opened; It creates a through draught of breathable air in the case of a fire.
The Manchester aircraft had both its back doors closed, and that was the region of maximum fatalities.


Ooh, and I think those who are really 'Professional' would want to be the last to leave the plane, after making sure no-one was left stuck in their seat.

Having never been on a 146, I have no idea how large the overhead bins are. But I suspect that the standard roll aboard bags need to be gate checked like a CRJ. So it is entirely possible that people simply exited the bag with stuff that was either on their lap or at their feet. Maybe in some instances, taking it actually helps the person sitting next to you avoid tripping over it?

For those intent on taking their cary-on luggage with them. British Airtours Flight 28M was mentioned earlier. I'd like to go back a bit further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Jane_Harrison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Flight_712

Pay particular attention to the bit about Katriel Katz.

"Ooh, and I think those who are really 'Professional' would want to be the last to leave the plane, after making sure no-one was left stuck in their seat."

No! They don't WANT to be. What they WANT is to get as far away from the aeroplane as possible. What they WANT is to save themselves. What they WANT is to go home that night and hug their kids. What they DO is stand there, yelling commands, coordinating the evacuation and getting bloody frustrated at people who waste time (their own and ultimately the crews') by dragging their bags and clobber to the exit, only to stand there in dull surprise, wondering how they're going to get themselves plus luggage down the slide!

RobertS
Swiss usually manage fit a full load of pax and their carry-on in the cabin but its a tight squeeze especially if your seated under the wing. I travel frequently between Zurich and City and can tell you the 146 is usually rammed full of pax with jackets, overcoats, laptops, briefcases, trollies, ridiculously oversized umbrellas and shopping bags galore.

"by dragging their bags and clobber to the exit, only to stand there in dull surprise, wondering how they're going to get themselves plus luggage down the slide!"


:ok:

And when they hit the concrete at a higher velocity than normal because of the extra weight of the bag and not being able to prepare for "landing", no wonder people get injured.

And in regards to your first part, :ok:, takes courage to stand and wait.

Personally I'd ban duty free booze from aircraft luggage, you have the injury possibility from flying bottles in a crash, fire risk, extra fuel burn etc, sell it at the departure airport by all means, but make it a voucher redeemable at your destination.

Remind me again, what was the cause of the evacuation? An uncontained engine failure?

500N, heavier objects do not fall faster... Galileo demonstrated that 400 years ago in Pisa. Makes the landing clumsier, I agree.

Custodial Sentences for Accident Victims! That should work well ...
 

Interesting to note so-called aviation professionals baying for lengthy "custodial sentences" to be imposed upon passengers unfortunate enough to be caught up in a terrifying evacuation situation. Increasingly we see media witch-hunts and public vendettas in pursuit of "revenge" sentences against aircrew, marine crew, bus / train drivers, ATC staff etc who have the misfortune to be involved in an accident. I strongly believe that a decent society should resist this lust for revenge punishments unless true criminal activity (eg. drunkenness, drug-abuse) is a causal factor in the accident.

However, if instead we as an industry advocate an environment in which Captain Hitler of Pol Pot Airways campaigns to have his panicked PASSENGERS incarcerated for picking up a bag … well, what chance has common sense got where aircrew arrests / charges are concerned? Do you really want a vindictive society in which aircrew and passengers lobby to see each other jailed following tragic accidents? Think about what you are saying, and be very careful what you wish for.

Luggage and elbows in the cabin
 

Hi guys and girls!
I used to be cabin crew for SWISS, and have deadheaded or flown privately on this 4-engine aircraft which is lovingly known as the "Jumbolino". It's quite narrow inside and when it is max PAX (which on London flights it usually is) then it is already tight to get through during boarding. I can't imagine what it was like during evacuation when everyone got up AND took their luggage out! Surely there were elbows and bags going into each other's ribs! However, until they REALLY understand the imminent danger of an evacuation, they will not abandon their bags. The "90 secs" rule is something they just don't (want to) grasp. Perhaps it should be part of the in-flight video: "Remember, in the case of an evacuation, you have exaclty 90 seconds before we blow up." Lol.:p
Also, hats off to my ex.colleagues at SWISS: I now they are very serious about safety and did an excellent job in the cockpit and cabin to keep everyone safe!

The problem is that the airlines want as much as possible of the cargo space free for profitable freight, and for many passengers this now means that the more they can get in the cabin the less they have to pay in surcharges. If they CAN grab their bags they will. The BCs might not be keen on smaller overhead lockers as that would cut freight capacity.

Perhaps corporate bean counters should admit to some responsibility for this behaviour.

Yeah I know, "dream on"!

At the lower cost end of the market, it's nothing to do with freight, because they don't carry any. It's about reducing airport service costs and time on the ground. Bags in the hold take time and money to load and unload.

Ah! Time is money, so BCs and airport/airline efficiency DO play a part in this bag-grab behaviour.

This airline travel sounds far too dangerous for my liking. They treat you like a criminal, take half your stuff off you then charge you a fortune to buy exactly the same things, herd you like cattle, cram you into seat next to some fat sweaty bloke, the engines blow to smithereens, then you go to jail for getting off in a hurry.

Happy holidays, chaps.

500N
 

Time for a refresher in how gravity works? I doubt air drag will have much of an effect when jumping a few meters.:}

Fortunately, during my life I have spent time and effort remaining fit, strong and healthy.

The result of this is that I am likely to be sprightly when exiting the burning aircraft.

Some people have led sedentary lives. They are fat and unfit. They will take much longer to exit the aircraft. Probably longer than me whilst collecting my bag.

Their selfishness in not maintaining an acceptable fitness level shows astonishing arrogance.
Their tardiness in vacating the aircraft will undoubtedly lead to deaths in the event of an evacuation being required.

I vote we ban fatties from air transport.

People such as myself may slow things down because we may collect our bags.
Fatties will, thus the only safe option is to ban them.:)

Next, children and the disabled....

evacuation was ordered from the flight deck, according to media reports of pax accounts. In the absence of more credible sources, this seems likely. No need to second-guess if it should or should not have been ordered, as long as we obviously know close to nothing, and don't know what the crew knew. Four people were lightly bruised, and got medical help on site. I see nothing highly unusual, and all I assume at this time is - job well done, by the pilots, cabin crew, emergency services and atc.