|
How bad can it get in cattle class (Virgin Atlantic)?
Have just completed a long haul return flight, economy, with Virgin Atlantic. My, have standards reached rock bottom!
Just four cabin crew in economy, three male. My wife had long finished her special diet meal and I was on my last bite of a very small portion of chicken and veg (no extras) when, hey, some wine arrived. Wife asked for wine and juice so that I could have a little more of the red plonk. On the flight out a request for some more tipple never came, and when I later complained, adding that if you are holding jugs of water and orange juice, why ask me if I would like some water? I was told to keep my voice down as other passengers were trying to sleep. And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else. |
Why did you find it relevant to tell us the sex of the cabin crew?
Why would you complain that you were asked if you would like water when the crew were holding water/juice jugs? Isn't that just polite? A request for more drinks is likely to have just been forgotten. A gentle reminder or a stretch of the legs to the galley might have done the trick. Special meals. At my old airline, and every airline I have ever flown on, special meals are always served first and quite often they are devoured before the main meals are. Unfortunately, logistically this is how it works. Special meals, in economy atleast, get dished out first. The experience has declined in the last 10 years, and it definitely has at VS. However, times are hard and until we all start paying the going rate for air travel it ain't going to improve. All that said, I still don't get much of what you complain about. |
Subtlety and nuance ain't your strong points I guess.
|
....or yours from the sound of it.
|
easyflyer83
However, times are hard and until we all start paying the going rate for air travel it ain't going to improve. All that said, I still don't get much of what you complain about. Every company is steadily downgrading their product and service to save money. The current recession is going to last at least another five years and possibly ten. If you want more service, do pay for Premium Economy or higher. Whilst that service is now largely what you used to get in Economy (minus the larger seat) that is where the market is. I agree that the change in service is not nice but, like everyone else, I don't like to spend more money than I have to. Consider the service you now get in every field of commerce. Consider if your bank gives you better service than ten years ago? They get you to do it all online. Your supermarket? You can check goods out yourself (but get no benefit from so doing) or you can pay to have them delivered (which is, actually, a bargain in terms of money/time + effort). Think about your electricty/water/gas/telephone supplier and check if they now offer the same customer service as ten years ago? The list goes on and, in my experience, the answer is always the same. |
Thanks chaps; easyflyer for not reacting more strongly; PAXboy for reinforcing what I have been trying to bear in mind throughout.
Times are hard; but when a round trip of 24 hours or so in that tube leaves you lamenting the realization that in about 45 years of flying you have never felt less welcome and more of an object, a rethink is necessary. There are airlines (Asian?) that I know have not sunk so low. But do I fancy going via Dubai? |
dfdasein I am not unsympathetic! The problem IS bad but IS unavoidable. :(
I agree that other carriers in the middle and far east are still on their way up and so can offer better customer service. The legacy carriers of Western Europe and the USA are just that - legacy carriers. Also, with VS, one of the often stated points in this forum is that the cabin service is variable - depending on which departing airport you use. LGW/LHR/MAN. |
I know it is the wrong approach, but I expect the worst and anything better is a bonus. I take my own reading matter/dvd player, my own food and drink [Pret], plus blow-up cushion and eye-shades. Unfortunately I cannot do anything about the actual seat or surrounding pax.
If the IFE is working, the food is edible, and the wine is poured on a frequent basis by male or female cc [I'm not fussy] I'm a happy bunny. I think back 30 years when a flight to Spain cost more than my next flight to Florida and just think that things could be a lot worse. Or should I demand a lot more for my £350, much of which goes to the government ? |
Here's another fine example of NOT customer service.
|
I don't think Economy has ever been any different.
You want more - pay for it. You may get very good / extra service sometimes - on occasion when the flight has been not so full or quiet I've been able to demolish quite large volumes of wine. But mostly - it's economy and it's called that for a reason. |
LoadToad economy has always been the bottom of the pile but it has been better. I can remember BOAC with 34 inch pitch for a start. Food is an interesting one. I think technology has probably meant that food arrives looking and tasting a bit more like food than it used to but the quantity has certainly gone down. Service is also somewhat difficult to quantify but the simple fact that crew numbers have been reduced at the same time as the number of passengers (both in abolute and load factor terms) have increased suggests a reduction in service.
I'm not suggesting that economy was ever the greatest thing since sliced bread but it isn't the same as it was. |
I can remember BOAC with 34 inch pitch for a start |
Maybe the lack of wine was due to them running out . We have Virgin Atlantic Captain who lives quite close who told me that on the Man - Florida flights that they have often run out of booze in economy by 40 west !.
|
Look at the cost of flying as a proportion of average income, compare it with 10/20/30/40 years ago and then look surprised when airlines provide the equivalent of "Never mind the quality, feel the width"
|
Well, we flew economy SIN - CDG - SIN last month on SQ and I have to say that the service was excellent. The seat wasn't great but I had no illusions about what I was going to get.
The IFE was fine, and my meal on the way back, a lump of beef in a red wine sauce was truely superb. The wine was only a VDP but still pretty decent and I had more than enough for the second half of the flight to be just a blur. |
OR just possibly it's the people and not the company.
Every society is made up of people, so when service slumps across the board we blame the company? True, it's the people that work therein that are the issue. I have been on some good trips with very basic service in seats that were less than comfortable. Why? It's a mindset thing. When BOAC flew with 34'' pitch what 1) was the cost in economy London Airport - Idlelwild 2) the equivalent today in £ real terms on LHR-JFK in World Traveler? |
Skipiness
Flew BCAL to US in 1976 at a cost of £450 in the back. Only know because I had student job to earn fair so hence remembered the ammount. Do not know what current fairs would be to Atlanta but would guess that it would be same or indeed slightly less. As for what you get I remember ok meals, and 1 film, plus some booze, and happy crew, and I think 34in pitch but do not quote me. Totaly agree with your post re supermarket and utilaties pay more get less + do it yourself.:* |
Hands up, who remembers the days of PEX, APEX, Super Apex, and dodgy shops in Earls Court to bypass (illegally) the rules
Flew to Barcelona Economy for a weekend back in early 90s and cheapest ticket was over £300. Took the 24 hour bus from London to Nice as the air-fare was unaffordable. Biz class on my regular run back in mid 90s was over £3K to Toronto. Not surprising if standards have dropped so much when real prices tickets wise must have dropped 50% or more. |
It's also surprising that fares have not skyrocketed compared to their price a generation ago, when you consider how much more the oil producers, government taxation (from a virtually zero base), and the self-feeding hordes of employees who masquerade as security, manage to have worked out of the cash in the system in more recent times. Whatever is left for the airline, the employees, and the manufacturers ?
|
And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else. |
Whatever is left for the airline, the employees, and the manufacturers ? I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that airlines are enablers in the same way that the canals, railroads, interstates, power grids and other infrastructures have been throughout modern history - not profitable per se, but with massive leverage and potential for wealth generation. Unfortunately not necessarily for airline shareholders... |
In 1989 I flew LHR/HKG/LHR for just under 600GBP (on some sort of super Apex, I guess). 20+ years later you can still buy return tickets for the same money if you book in advance.
In the mid 1990s I used to pay just over 3,000GBP for LHR/HKG/LHR in F for a full fare flexible ticket. Now it's around 9,000GBP. Maybe it's time for the boys and girls in the back to pay their way :E |
I must agree with HAC as I can not see how the Y class prices are sustainable during this next oncoming recession for the airlines. Also all the comments about airline profits ignores the fact that airports are also feeling the pain and some of the regional UK ones I beleive will be lucky to survive this next year. Anybody care to open a "book" on airport closure.
|
They're only sustainable if the demand for unrestricted fares in Y and C holds up.
That's applying rational economic theory, of course, but as soon as you have irrationality (a carrier under Chapter 11 protection with a vital interest in cash-flow and bugger the debt levels, any state-owned carrier, any state-subsidised airline) then they set the market price and you'll have to have pretty good USP to compete at higher fare levels. |
And, the Airbus has some shoddy finishing, but the design of the back of seat pocket by your shins on the A340-600 is something else. I strongly suspect that Airbus have nothing to do with the seat design. Normally a customer specified item, from their seat manufacturer of choice. B/E Aerospace, Britax, Recaro, Sicma, Contour etc. |
I have to echo the comment about variable service on legacy airlines.
Whilst that CAN be changed, do the airlines actually want it to? |
Even more importantly, are flyers prepared to fund the alterations via increased ticket prices ?
No, seems to be the answer for short haul, and almost certainly not on long-haul. |
Are increased ticket prices the centre of the solution ? One thing immediately noticed by regular pax is that the flight attendants who are paid the most (those from the unionised legacy US carriers) are probably those who overall have the worst attitude to service and the pleasantness of the passengers' journey. Service standards seem almost inversely related to how much worldwide-located staff may be paid.
|
A fair point WHBM but I think the clue is more in the words 'legacy' and 'new'. Legacy companies are called that because they carry a legacy and that is often not the kind of legacy the company thinks it has - or wants!
For example, a couple of years ago I went into an old fashioned umbrella and walking stick company in London. Had they not have had the very thing I wanted (and at a good price) I would have walked out. From the moment the staff clapped eyes on me, it was an obvious 'He's not one of us'. They were lousy adverts for the shop. As it happens, I walked past the shop on tuesday and remembered all over again what terrible staff they had. I shall certainly not return or recommend them. That's a legacy company for you. := |
Just returned from Bangkok,Kathmandu,Lhasa and Paro [ Bhutan] flying with various airlines.Being a 194cm "freak",it was "adopt the prayingmantis position" and pray for arrival at ones destination.Best result for me was Royal Thai BKK-KTM on a B777.Had some knee room and was quite comfortable.However with most airlines these days in cattle class the wine-glass is eye-wash size.Maybe something to do with Responsible service of Alcohol?
The other airlines we flew with ,Air China [A319] Air Asia [A330] were only for smaller species of human.Air travel sure aint what it used to be,Aye!!!!? Gotta go now and apply liniment to me shins!!!! |
WHBM,
You would agree with me that airlines were fairly unsuccessful at avoiding additional costs on airfares decreasing the portion of the money paid by the pax they keep. When a new tax, an increase on APD, or any other fee comes along they smile (or frown) and they pass it to the customer. However I do agree completely with your comment that service attitude should not depend on money paid. |
Originally Posted by Haven't a clue
(Post 6888600)
In 1989 I flew LHR/HKG/LHR for just under 600GBP (on some sort of super Apex, I guess). 20+ years later you can still buy return tickets for the same money if you book in advance.
In the mid 1990s I used to pay just over 3,000GBP for LHR/HKG/LHR in F for a full fare flexible ticket. Now it's around 9,000GBP. Maybe it's time for the boys and girls in the back to pay their way :E |
Some areas of service have gone down such as inflight catering, then again others such as IFE have improved over time. Virgin has declined more than most over the years.
Fares have gone down dramatically. I think that I paid c£350 in 1979 to fly London - Toronto. One reason is higher load factors, so if your priority is getting a free seat next to you - tough. Also the premium cabin subsidises the economy, so lets hope that there aren't too many all business airlines set up in the future. Also remember there are other airlines apart from Virgin available. Most American carriers offer the same standard of service as VS, which leaves BA. If you are travelling eastbound you have a much better choice of quality airlines. Its not perfect but have a look at Skytrax. |
Spanair Bad, I'm just under 6ft and their suicidal 28 inch seat pitch meant my knees dug into a strip of metal on the seat infronts frame. Also dirty cabin including chewing gum in the armrest(the front had been broken off of it) and a collapsing seat which would not stay in the upright position. The a/c (A320) was in an awful state considering it was meant to have the 'newer' seating which looked like it was straight from the mid 90's!!
|
Newspaper advertisement....
All this is from ERITREAN AIRLINES :) |
I flew manchester - orlando return with Virgin in November. Booked over 12 months previously, Virgin changed their baggage policy allowing our baby a 20kg suitcase that wasn't originally in the deal. A raise in standards there!!
Outbound was a 747, packed out, no free economy seats. The crew worked hard on that one, but still managed to provide everything 'in the book'. No frills, a REALLY cheap price. Inbound was an Airbus, what can I say? More room, nicer seat, great skycot and the IFE was a million times better than the 747. The crew were in short supply, but once again everything was as 'in the book'. When I wanted extra booze, I went and asked at the galley, the crew were just too busy to serve it to the seat. My holiday for three to a nice florida hotel cost about £1500, premium economy would have added £500ish quid to the price. I would rather slum it and have the extra spending money. However it is up to you............ |
Cattle class is definitely worse. The tech stuff's better, but the human side not. Sure it's cheaper than ever - but remember when if you wanted to change your return date by a week or two you just rang the airline....and did it.
All that aside, a 20 hour flight straight through has always and will always be just a dire experience. |
The mention of "Cattle" class got me thinking about what the rules were for transporting cattle. Regulation 1/2005 of the EU has these provisions:
Article 3 General conditions for the transport of animals No person shall transport animals or cause animals to be transported in a way likely to cause injury or undue suffering to them. In addition, the following conditions shall be complied with: (a) all necessary arrangements have been made in advance to minimise the length of the journey and meet animals' needs during the journey; (b) the animals are fit for the journey; (c) the means of transport are designed, constructed, maintained and operated so as to avoid injury and suffering and ensure the safety of the animals; (d) the loading and unloading facilities are adequately designed, constructed, maintained and operated so as to avoid injury and suffering and ensure the safety of the animals; (e) the personnel handling animals are trained or competent as appropriate for this purpose and carry out their tasks without using violence or any method likely to cause unnecessary fear, injury or suffering; (f) the transport is carried out without delay to the place of destination and the welfare conditions of the animals are regularly checked and appropriately maintained; (g) sufficient floor area and height is provided for the animals, appropriate to their size and the intended journey; (h) water, feed and rest are offered to the animals at suitable intervals and are appropriate in quality and quantity to their species and size. |
Great stuff! Will consider forwarding to Virgin. May reread "Animal Farm"!
|
And remember that the cattle (ok, well their owners anyway) probably pay more to fly than us.
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 14:10. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.