Hotel Mode ... that's cool. Think how many thousands of posts over the last year or so, on 2 different threads here [never mind other Boards]. Some things get missed, or forgotten.

Let's talk about the issues, eh?

Sensitive sole are we? I think it was a case of you reading into it something different to what was meant....
I could have said your post was a load of tosh but resisted and posted a wish. Obviously you are no more qualified to comment on anything regarding the position of ST removal and Employment law. You made that clear in your post.:E
This is why we await the outcome of the court case and the legal arguments during it with interest.

This is why we await the outcome of the court case and the legal arguments during it
 

Does the result really matter anymore.
BA now has its new Mixed Fleet. (lower cost)
As routes are transferred to MF and "heritage crew" leave the airline it would seem to be game,set and match. !!!

To me, this whole issue will be based on two statements -

"Right of Collective Bargaining and Action’, stipulates: Workers and employers, or their respective organisations, have, in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices, the right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels and, in cases of conflicts of interests, to take collective action to defend their interests, including strike action" Article 28 The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU.

"For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in the charter creates justifiable rights applicable to the UK except in so far as the UK has provided for such rights in its national law" Tony Blair 2007

This clears it all up?!

House of Lords - European Union - Tenth Report

From 5.29b onwards.

Litebulbs, thank you for the link.

What seems (to me) to be clear, wading my way through it, is that the picture is confusing. There seems to be a right to right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels. It is far less clear whether there is a right to strike, despite the concluding part of Article 28.

It states further that the right to strike is already recognised as a general principle of law. This "principle" seems to be where the fun starts as:

So, is there a right to strike in the UK? or is it a principle, which is not enshrined in law? The problem arises from this distinction. IF there is only a principle and no right, can BA be acting illegally by "punishing" strikers, as their rights have not been infringed. This I suspect will be where BA's case will reside. As it seems unclear and confusing to the scholars of EU and UK law, this is likely to run a long way before a clear resolution is reached and may even force parliament to make clear what the relationship is between UK law and EU law. Does an EU law that is directly contradictory to UK law mean that UK law must bend?

This is a fascinating conundrum and may have far reaching consequences. It also shows that there will be a lot of scope for appeal after appeal on this subject. I do not expect a swift resolution to this issue. Sadly for BASSA, a speedy resolution is what they need, the longer this goes on the longer a new "normality" is established.

Juan
 

Litebulbs
 

What you say rings a bell with me too, what I hadn't quite appreciated was the delicate nature of the legal position. The danger of the politicians becoming engaged in this and clarifying the position with an eye on their beliefs wrt the EU and EU law and interference. If not careful here the unions may end up with a law passed that clearly defines UK law's supremacy and the establishment that there is no right to strike in UK law. That would be a disaster for unions and the working man.

From the "other" thread
 

Biteme asks, somewhat plaintively:

There would be only one possible course of action: resign.


Immediately.

CCC

I am sure we can see through Biteme as just the latest incarnation of the duty BASSA troll, possibly DH himself, he says If not DH then just another troll trying another lame story to try and influence opinion. Good for him for trying, bit so easy to see through.

All you have to do is look through the posting history - the poster has been resurrected from the portfolio of BASSA rep pseudonyms.

Actually biteme is not DH, or even one of the usual BASSA trolls. He's one of the more moderate posters on the crews own forums. Unfortunately he does share their common position of being unaware of much of their unions amateurish behaviour and a reluctance to accept evidence of what has gone before. If crew knew half of what their union had been up to (and also hadn't been up to) they'd be aghast.

Work pressure
 

I am concerned about biteme (on the other web) and others like him._ Change is difficult._ He is 47 and therefore has given the best years of his life to a job which appears to be a very sociable job but could in reality be quite lonely._ Biteme is clearly a conscientious person and no doubt is very good at his job._ But what a curious job it is!_ In most jobs one has colleagues and they are the same colleagues for years._ Each person knows the strengths and weaknesses of the others._ And during the off-duty periods the group will chat together about sport or aging grandparents or hobbies and since the individuals know each other quite well they know what to joke about and what not to joke about._ These off-duty periods when e.g. they are having a break for lunch establishes relationships that enable them at work to deal with each other in a professional and confident manner._ But how does it work if one has 10,000 colleagues?_ Clearly it doesn’t work._ It would be a real strain.

Please can one or two BA cabin crew staff tell me (because I don’t know) are you with strangers as colleagues?_ Or do you arrange your bids for routes so as to meet up with familiar faces?

NO, he's taken it away from the oldest pensioners too - why ?

I see that Wee Willie has awarded himself a Million Pound Share Option !

I bet he keeps HIS Staff Travel !

(P.s. where's ExSp33db1rd when we need him ? )

YorkshireTyke
 

Willie Walsh (as thats his name, Wee Willie is not his name) did not and cannot award himself anything. Any increase in salary, bonus, share options etc has to be proposed, and accepted by the whole board. He has no say in the matter. What he can do, and what he has done in the past is to decline what was offered.

@ Yorkshire Tyke

ExSp33 has had the moderatorial duct-tape applied to his mouth on this subject.

Are you taking up his cudgel/Zimmer-frame;) ?

Notlangley
I am BA cc based at LHR worldwide fleet(longhaul)
We would never be rostered to do a trip with the entire crew again as it would not be possible.Some people may have part time,leave or UK request days next so it would not work.
I will check in for a long haul trip and not usually know anyone on the crew.
I can appreciate that this does sound strange to non flyers who have familiarity in their work place.
Crew,both in the cabin and the flight deck,get used to getting on board not even knowing everyone's names.We all know what tasks have to be done before passenger boarding.This is a very busy time so no real chit chat can take place.
Crew have to be able to work in a team of strangers and get the job done.
As far as I am aware most UK airlines work like this as it makes it easier for rostering.

And the world without the BASSA dinosaurs continues to function and move on.

617sqn
 

I am grateful to you for your reply which was exactly the opposite to what I had expected._ There is a particular advantage in this shuffling of personnel._ As I see it, the advantage is that it is a force that reduces polarisation between ex-Amicus and ex-T&GWU._ With my limited vision as a PAX I have formed the view that ex-Amicus has by metamorphosis become CC89 and ex-T&GWU has by metamorphosis become BASSA._ Therefore the shuffling of the rostering should be of value to most cabin crew because when the hue and cry has died down, it will enable old divisions to disappear into irrelevance.

However it is a bit tough on the loyal, the shy, the boastful, the loner, and those who do not doubt._ I do hope that BA has clubs like rowing clubs, sailing clubs, athletic clubs, skying clubs because these social organisations are very important to soften the cultural change that will take place to Unite BA CC members in 2011.

Twenty years ago I was in an organisation that downsized._ There was no bullying, no differences between Management and Trade Union._ It was very smooth and voluntary._ It was driven by the government who held our purse-strings._ Even so there were tragic results because one or two employees could not accept change.

Help for the individual is needed._ And it is difficult to identify those individuals._ I wish that I could have spotted them, but maybe I would have been of no use.

You've got that the wrong way round I think. First there was BASSA. Then when people became disaffected by BASSAs militancy a breakway union, CC89 was formed. CC89 and BASSA became affiliated to Amicus and TGWU respectively. Amicus and TGWU then merged to become Unite.

Well whatever the politics are we are all strangers 8 miles high going away for up to 9 days.
As we walk through the airport chatting it would be hard to guess we only met 10 minutes ago.
Crew have a natural ability to make friends and get on with the job as a team of strangers.
As in all walks of life some are more skilled in this area than others.
It is very strange though to do a 9 day trip and have a good time,then land back at LHR,say goodbye, maybe never see them again and do the same next trip.
It is difficult when you have things going on at home.You may feel very sad and not want to go away andyou have no friends with you.
You have to paint the smile on,walk into the briefing room and get on with it.
I have left a close relative in intensive care and gone into work feeling very fragile.How I kept that smile going I will never know.
As part of the briefing the CSD will say to call them anytime if you are upset.On the whole,crew are good to each other.
Things are a bit more challenging at the moment,which is a shame.
I have never seen any crew take their grievance out on a pax.In fact I have seen some very militant crew being outstanding.The pax would never guess their stance.
Anyway,back to topic.Sometimes good,sometimes bad can be lonely.
I can't see us being rostered any other way so we just get on with it.

617 Squadron.
As a retired BA 744 upfronter we had the bidline which ensured that people of similar seniority often flew together. I understand BASSA turned down BIDLINE.:ugh:

617Squadron ref post 2220
 

I am sorry to reply to your post many hours later but I do hope you read this.

I flew ATL - LHR - EDI three weeks ago and was surprised by the level of service in Club World. I have been watching this site for several months wondering if my holiday that was booked in December would actually happen. Talking to 2 of the crew that took care of me I was surprised to find they were strikers. Your comment about the smile was so true.

With all the garbage going on in their lives there was never a hint of it to their customers. Thanks to the 4 crews I flew with for a great trip. I will certainly book on BA when next I head your direction.:ok:

MCOflyer

Lotpax,

There is still a dispute and there are still legal proceedings.

Next question?

Added: Or go and look at the link in Post 2921 on the other thread. Because there's at least one person (probably called "Richard"!) who thinks it isn't over.

If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be funny.

Fly380,
No I don't think we were ever offered bid line. It is an extremely costly method for BA to roster crew.
I am crew but while pregnant I worked in scheduling and there were nearly as many flight crew schedulers as there were WW cabin crew schedulers doing our rosters.
On E/F we do get to bid for our trips now but it is not seniority led like the pilot bid. It is done by a computer trying to match your preference with the available trips in the system.

notelangley,
Even on Eurofleet we fly with different crew each day and we all just get on and do the job. Sometimes I know some of my crew and that is good and as I only fly on the Airbus, I often know the pilots which I find great because in my personal experience, the Airbus pilots are the nicest I have flown with in my 25 years of flying.
I have worked in Cabin Crew Selection in the past and cabin crew are specifically selected on their ability to communicate with people and their ability to get on and work in a team.

MCOflyer,
I am so pleased that you enjoyed your flight with BA. It is also my experience that, whether a striker or a non striker, most crew are just as professional as they ever were. In fact, in general, we don't even talk about the strike to each other because no one wants to upset anyone else. I think this is why many of us post on here and other forums in order to get things off our chest.

CharliePop
 

Totally and wholly inaccurate - CC89 was formed as the WW section of BA was in disagreement with the SH section - hence why most of CC89 members were from WW, plus they tried to entice a lot of Midfleet crew into their ranks.

Total garbage that it had anything to do with BASSA militancy - you really should learn your facts before spouting such rubbish

Even if your version of the birth of CC89 is wholly correct No 15, it hardly makes CharliePop's version either "totally and wholly inaccurate" or "total garbage".

Seems to me you both agree that CC89 arose due to an internal dispute in BASSA.

They are both right in a way.

I joined cc89 in 1989 when it started. It was formed by most of the long-haul Bassa reps ( who mostly had worked for BOAC) because they felt they could no longer work with the short-haul reps (who mostly had worked for BEA and British Airtours the charter part of BA and who were much more militant ). It was based at the Balpa offices and used the Balpa expertise to help them initially. Then it became part of AEEU union which itself merged with another union and then became Amicus. Then Amicus merged with the TGWU, the parent union of BASSA, to become Unite and that's where we are now. Amicus (cc89) has lost it's voice because it was the smaller of the two branches and the more moderate of the two too.

Hope that history lesson helps you understand the complicated politics of unions in BA.

Betty Girl
 

Perhaps you might wish to re-phrase. I don't remember any militancy in British Airtours. In fact totally the opposite.

CC89 won't have lost their voice unless they are doing so out of weak leadership or having no connection.
They still have bargaining rights and rights to consultation.
Are you saying that no one in CC89 is doing anything regarding the present mess or are they silent because it doesn't affect them?

77,
You have reprinted half a sentence. It was the short haul reps that were more militant than the long haul reps who broke away to form CC89.

At that time and before CC89 broke away, crew who were short haul and those that had previously been working for British Airtours were part of the short haul section of Bassa and those that were long haul crew were part of the long haul branch of Bassa.

I was not saying that any crew were more militant than any other crew, just the Bassa shorthaul reps were more militant than the longhaul reps who chose to break away and form CC89.

Call 100,
I was told that they had lost proportionately more members than Bassa due to the fact that CC89 members tend to be more moderate.

I was also told that the Unite leadership was fed up of the two unions arguing and told the CC89 reps to take a back seat for the sake of showing a unified front.

I have been a CC89 member since it started and I can assure you that the union that I have known all these years would not have wanted to call the 12 days of Christmas mess and that is why it has lost so many members.

Unite's latest message:

http://www.unitetheunion.org/PDF/027...sh-Airways.pdf

Does anyone else notice a pattern here? Nothing new in this message. All the same old dogma heard time and time again...

..and no new ballot, no firm call to action.

How long does the BASSA membership tolerate the placating missives and no action? Perhaps its possible that Unite and BASSA understand that they have lost, that neither party wishes to take affirmative action, and this has now become a case of simply letting things stay as they are with a "We feel your pain" message to come from time to time.

For BASSA members the vision isn't exactly empowering.

And of course, BASSA leadership remaining in place and collecting what ever they collect while members continue to pay their monthly dues.

...which is why they are prevaricating over ending the strife, which would then require fresh elections, in which several of them would be not be eligible to stand.

Betty Girl
 

I know that I only quoted half a sentence. I did not intend to mis-represent what you said. However it did seem to me that your original post linked BEA/British Airtours with the militant faction in short haul. Airtours operated both long and short haul and the sheduling agreements were different to mainline.
Originally no one in Airtours was employed by BA apart from the pilots who were on secondment from mainline. The employment contracts were totally different until they were absorbed into mainline.
As such it was a very happy operation.

Errrr..not quite accurate I am afraid!

The Longhaul BASSA committee, branch 1261 of TGWU, were being told by the SH BASSA reps that BCal should be part of the SH membership and this daft idea was backed by a certain 'Militant' TGWU official.
After representations to the highest authority, the TGWU Gen Sec - Ron Todd who just ignored them they went to a very well attended members meeting and were told from the floor to form a new union for cabin crew. This happened in February 1989 and the rest is history.

Midfleet had nothing to do with it and came many years later but did have many CC89 members.

CC89 in BA is known as Amicus Cabin Crew - but BASSA continued to call them '89. CC89 (Unite) has members in all British airlines being the only recognised union for British Midland and Virgin for example.

The dispute would have been resolved a long time ago if BASSA had sat down and thrashed out a deal with BA along side Amicus.

77,
I was not saying Airtours were at all militant just that they were part of the short haul branch back then.
They did do both long haul work and short haul work but they were all part of the short haul branch of Bassa at that time.

As Vctenderness mentioned everything kicked off after the BA and Bcal merger in 1988. At Gatwick we all merged together to become BA LGW mainline crew. Some Bcal crew went to long haul and some went to short haul and at the same time all the Airtours crew also either went to long haul or short haul at LGW but they were at that time members of the short haul section.

So the reason for the breakup was the different two branches arguing about who should have which members in their branch and a total dislike between the two branches who had originally come from two separate airlines BEA and BOAC and as history has confirmed the short haul reps were more militant than the reps who went to start up CC89, which later became Amicus.

Ok Betty,
Interesting synopsis of the history of unions in BA. Some militant, some not. However we still need some clear thinking to resolve the present impasse. Unfortunatey there doesn't seem to be any prospect of a quick solution. BA are, I would imagine, quite happy as the now have a much larger MF than they could ever have hoped for and don't need to do anything at all. Meanwhile BASSA look for a way forward but any legal action will take a long time and while it goes on those that have been on strike will continue to find life difficult.
In the end if BASSA succeed in legal action it won't really matter as BA now have this large MF and as routes are transferred, well I don't need to go on, do I??
Coming soon on a University Industrial Relation course..."How not to progress a dispute".

77,
I agree with you completely. I think that Bassa have totally let down BA cabin crew. They have made MF arrive bigger and faster. The very sad thing is that they could have had some input into the terms and conditions of the new crew and they chose not to. Now these new crew have a very inferior agreement even by the standards of a lot of other airlines.

Clauses like crew being stood down on no pay if the airlines feels it is over crewed, one weeks notice to terminate the job but the new crew have to give 4 weeks notice!!, working on ground duties whenever the company require it and working to scheme, which is not unusual, but there are no safeguards at all to how they can be rostered unlike other airlines and our own flight crew colleagues.

So yes we have all been let down, strikers, non-striker and future new crew.

Bg...If what you say is true, about Unite asking CC89 (or whatever they are called in the mess that is BA) to remain in the background, then what has happened to them?
The scenario would have been fine in the beginning but, as the relationship go worse and BASSA were acting against what CC89 thought was their best interests, then it would not wash, whatever Unite said from on high...CC89 has a duty to represent it's members best interests.
By remaining silent they are agreeing with BASSA and if they are also losing members then it's clear to see why. BA have not asked them to remain in the background! From BA's perspective they can see it as destroying the TU base of both groups.
Why are CC89(?) not negotiating MF terms and conditions?
None of it makes any sense.

Your right, it's as if they have become impotent. On their website the only information that is put up is official messages from Unite the parent union. Nothing else is posted at all.

I think some of them were suspended over a fight with Bassa reps but I don't know what has happened to the rest of them, they say nothing, literally.

Thank you Betty girl - this is clearly the case because cabin crew of BA and all other airlines that I know are excellent communicators and have natural charm
　
I have just flown back from Melbourne on a Qantas 747._ On the leg to Hong Kong I asked a stewardess whether her colleagues on this plane were strangers or people she knew._ She said that this route was looked after by a reasonable number of cabin crew and so she did know one or two - but she said that some of the other routes had a great many cc and that with those it was a case of strangers at the start of each roster._ On the HK-Heathrow leg I asked a steward who said that the number of cc on this route was about 500 and so the same faces did crop up._ I also asked a stewardess and she said that she always knew one or two and that from the beginning of October to just past mid November she was doing elements that were "three up, three down and four days off"._ The jargon was beyond me, also (because I am an outsider) much of what was said to me garbled-up in my mind even as I listened.

The 500 figure was most interesting._ In my opinion 500 is a good figure for a working unit, because when shop stewards are elected, they will be known by those who elect them._ By coincidence 500 is the capacity of the largest room where BASSA called a general meeting, although the reports that I read say that the electorate abrogated their democratic responsibilities and agreed to BASSA filling the shop steward gaps by co-option (this is what I read and therefore it is unreliable hearsay)._ I briefly mulled over the idea that the 10,000 heritage cabin crew could be subdivided into twenty rosters and that each roster could elect two shop stewards which would give a grand total of 40 shop stewards._ But of course such an idea is naive and unrealistic - the rosters would obviously be devised by BA - and I hate to use the word gerrymandering, but the integrity of the union would be compromised by BA being able to alter the electoral sub-units of heritage cabin crew.

To my mind 10,000 cc in a working unit is too large for democracy to be sustained and there will be many committee members whose heads are permanently in the stratosphere, pus also it is a perfect environment to produce a cult.