Imposition of crewing levels and the suspension of some Amicus and Bassa reps for fighting in a car park on BA property led to the two sides uniting and probably pressure from the parent union Unite.

I was an Amicus member of 21 years since it started as Cabin crew 89 back in 1989. Bassa longhaul reps broke away, on mass, to start up Cabin crew 89 because they could no longer work with the more militant shorthaul reps. With the support of BALPA the pilot's union CC89 came about based at BALPA's offices. The few remaining Bassa longhaul reps continued as BASSA worldwide and have over the years had a feud with the reps that were previously their collegues. Later on CC89 became part of Amicus and changed it's name to Amicus. Now Amicus and the TGWU have joined to become Unite and this has caused problems for the more moderate Amicus reps.

I am so saddened that out of this mess I seem to have lost the representation of the Amicus reps and I therefore resigned from Unite as a result.

As the BASSA High Command is so fond of military analogies, her are some quotes for them to mull over:

There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.
George Armstrong Custer

We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs.
Giuseppe Garibaldi

The only thing that matters is that we stand firm.
Heinrich Himmler

If our most highly qualified General Staff officers had been told to work out the most nonsensical high level organization for war which they could think of, they could not have produced anything more stupid that that which we have at present.
Claus von Stauffenberg

But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto

This man ? Surely not.
 

Today Duncan Holley BASSA Branch Secretary was sacked from British Airways as a Eurofleet CSD.

This has happened solely because of his other role as the branch secretary of our union and stemmed from a “new” interpretation by cabin crew management surrounding the agreed rights of recognized union officers to be released to undertake union duties over a handful of days in late December, last year.

Duncan is a man that has encompassed the core values of our union for longer than most people can remember!

Something you learn very early as a union rep is that it’s easy to have opinions. It’s less easy to stand up for them. It’s easy to recount what you would tell management to do and where to ‘shove it’ in a bar or restaurant down route. It’s less than easy in real life. Often those that shout the loudest are furthest from the fight.

Duncan Holley was an exception to that rule. He has always had the strongest opinions and principles possible, but at the same time, he was what you would have expected him to be - utterly fearless and unafraid to represent your views to our management, and if they were not prepared to listen, then he would make sure they did.

There are no shades of grey with Duncan. He is “black and white”. If it’s right, it’s right and if it’s wrong, then it’s wrong and he never hesitates to tell anybody who needs to know that.

He inherited those principles from his predecessor Mike Coleman- who was also sacked by British Airways around the time of the 1997 dispute. He inherited a strong union but under his leadership there is no doubt, we are even stronger.

His integrity and strength, but above all courage is second to none. Duncan is a pillar of this union, and without leaders like him, this union would not function.

Despite the huge shadow this has cast over both him and the toll on his family for nearly 6 months, he has never once put his interest above the interest of our members or asked for any extra consideration. If a deal could be found that protected you our members he was content with that, regardless of his own fate. He has always put the interests of something he believes in with all his heart first - he believes that cabin crew are good people, who deserve the best. He does his utmost to try and get that for you - Ultimately it has cost him his job, but being the man he is, he would have it no other way.

People often ask “what has the union ever done for me?”
Take a look at Duncan Holley and you will see exactly what the union and its reps are doing for you! Take a moment and watch the “something inside so strong” video. Reflect on the image of Duncan on a spring morning less than two years ago and see what he has now given for this union. Nobody could have given or sacrificed more, without people like Duncan, we simply would not have a union.

I am moved by that statement. Indeed, I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.

:}

Particularly in view of the statement below posted elsewhere. In which DH "names and shames" a previous colleague for daring to have a view that differs from his own.


Fill Brancis

Our “friend” Del C Diner, aka xxxxx xxxxx has now taken the thread that he started with the responses to BA and one crew member has since been suspended, this ex BASSA rep really is the lowest of the low. I have contacted him to let him know how I feel and predictably he took my message straight to Tony McCarthy. He sort of forgot that BA have no control over me any more.

Not only did he strike break for personal promotion but he then came on this Forum and started a taunting thread. He then took some replies to BA and caused someone to be suspended. In all my flying career his actions are the nastiest and lowest I have ever encountered.
Please no one respond to this message other than a bump because as sure as eggs are eggs xxxx xxxx will report you and cost you your job. Just ensure his name is “known”.
Finally can I say Hi to Tony McCarthy as I know he will be reading this message very shortly. How’s the bullying going Tony? How’s the union busting going? By the way don’t get too cosy with xxxx xxxx he’s a bit of a snake. Regards to Willie – Love Duncan

Mr Optimistic was reproducing a BASSA communication that was put out on the day DH was sacked. It may have even been written by DH himself.

What is clear though is the DH did not learn from his predecessor's errors. They were both sacked whilst BASSA was in dispute with BA.

sigh
 

It is a direct copy off the web: try google search. Found it rather inspiring myself. Rorkes Drift came to mind, or the Light Brigade.

Here is the link to the original "tribute" to Duncan:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc

All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.

This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.

See where you're coming from RTR, but don't tar 'em all etc. Take f'rinstance Eddy on the other thread who tried at the beginning to write reasonably from a union point of view. But because of his very reasonableness has been vilified by BASSAfolk, semi 'outed' and for whatever reason has decided to transfer to LGW. Litebulbs on this thread, too, has always been reasonable, tho' often tough. Good on 'em - and good luck in your move, Eddy, if you read this.

There has been comment regarding the removal of rebate travel facilities from the BA cabin crew members who went on strike, and further comment suggesting that it might be restored only to allow them to commute to work.

Can anyone confirm the present situation, or is it all dependant on a settlement still to be reached ?

Thanks.

My guess is that you get it immediately. _By immediately I mean when the Union accepts the "Final Offer"._ My guess is that all non-Union members are then given the same offer and if they want the staff travel they accept the offer made personally and individually to them._ But until the Union accepts the "Final Offer" then nothing happens - just a log-jam - all dead wood and no movement._ Perhaps someone who really knows will correct this statement.

jimtherev

You are right of course. It is not fair that some people get mixed up in the sorry excuse for unionism by BASSA. Eddy is indeed a very good example of one who has fair and sensible views and I applaud him. His post on CC against MissM who carries the banner for BASSA and cannot and will not accept anything that is a sound and reasonable opposite to her own view, even an unarguable one, is a classic example of my point. She doesn't just refute opposing arguments she just ignores them and just goes on and on spouting HER view - take it or leave it. THAT, is the type I am referring to.

The latest garbage by Duncan Holley is also an example of a man who cannot and will not listen to other people's views. He is always right.

I really hope that BA are compiling a dossier of all the reps of BASSA who work for them and who have crossed the line. They should then act as positively as they have with others to stop the the smell that is BASSA.

One good point from all of this sadness is that BASSA have learned in no uncertain terms that it is BA who run the airline, NOT BASSA! Unite had better recognize that too. As for 'Lenny McCluskey' I would give him low chance of election now that BASSA want to hold his hand.

I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements? It doesn't.
Luckily for many TU members they are represented by good, honest, hard working reps who gain the best possible deals for the members (under very hard circumstances these days). You only have to look within BA to see that many agreements have been made without the fuss that this dispute has. It's too convenient for people to have opinions like yours. It saves constructing a reasoned argument I suppose.

RTR and call100.

Different situations, = different behaviours by reps.
I've worked in a number of different sectors in different countries. Generally, when I have encountered "lay" reps., or employees who act as representatives of their members, they have done so to the best of their abilities.
However, sometimes their behaviour is not for their members, it can be for other reasons. In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep. However, to act as a lay rep in the NUM you had to follow the Scargill line.
My worst experience was of a small group of reps in the Aviation sector. As the individuals concerned had only ever worked in Aviation, and had no experience of work outside Aviation, all they knew about work was from Aviation. They observed the behaviours of others in Aviation, and decided that being a rep was all about maximising their own personal income and power base. The other reps in the Company saw what was going on and did NOT support this small group of reps.
Having gained support in the Company concerned for the need to take action, the Employee Relations Manager, and the managers of these non-reps, removed them one by one from their "rep" positions. Two left the company, one became a very valued contributor to the company.
It can be done, it just takes time and care.

If the Company has real problems, whole Union branches can be transformed by focussed action by the relevant management.. I've seen it done. However, to achieve this requires a book of instructions, way beyond a post on this thread.

So is strong effective representation a bad thing? Obviously, there are going to be some management influenced posts on both of the threads, which is to be expected, but generalised union bashing for the sake of it, serves no purpose. And to suggest that you need to change reps until you get a team that a business wants, is just as bad as having a so called militant branch.

It is all about balance.

I am not in the habit of responding to anyone who assumes that I am talking without experience or knowledge. But what the hell! Firstly, you have chosen to misunderstand what I said. I have specifically pointed AT BASSA - with a general statement on unions that fits the current situation. In BASSA it has been proven time after time that the reps have been self serving indolent individuals and attacked by members with constant references to CSD's/reps who take the best routes and, therefore, no regard for the members. That is fact. Where is the unionism in fighting for the members per se?

And yet, although it has taken way too long he was, just this week, expelled from the NUM. He was also an indolent self serving person who used the workforce for his own ends. He led them to destruction in effect. Thousands out of work and the mines closed. BASSA would have done that given the opportunity. Now tell me that is not what was in their minds. They wanted to control BA and almost did until WW came along.

My real point is that in spite of BASSA being led by some reps with only themselves grouping to make BA do as they were told, some saw the sense in not following the 'Scargill' line. Now please don't forget the other union leaders like Woodley and Simpson who between them destroyed people's jobs were not party to that. Would that not be the reason why BASSA decided to affiliate themselves with Unite. Now we have Holley and others trying to curry favour with McCluskey - why? The answer is in this paragraph.

Maybe, however, McCluskey if he wins will decide to live in 2010 and leave the 70's behind. As it happens there is more to be gained now if they can see that the bad old days are over and behave as a proper union in sole service of its members and not themselves. But......I wouldn't hold your breath.

RTR
What you actually said was No mention of BASSA.
Scargill has not been expelled from the NUM his voting rights have been taken away as he is only an honorary president.The NUM say that the rules preclude him and others from voting.....So you were wrong to say he had been expelled.

Ancient Observer....The scenario you describe would be from the worse type of management and is more abhorrent than the problem you say it overcomes.
I have always worked with companies and members to get the best for both sides. I would, of course, have had no truck with anyone from the company coming along thinking they could dictate how and why I or any other representatives should think and act. They have managers they can play with like that.
I think this thread indicates that the trouble lies in people who are polarised and unable (from both camps) to understand what exactly the middle ground is. As litebulbs says 'Its all about balance'

I've said before that the general insults towards Union reps and members is short sighted and ignorant. Not understanding that the BASSA case is one section v one employer and stretching opinions of it across the whole TU spectrum is not only non constructive but a waste of time and pointless.

Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online

In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.

@call100

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."

Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.

Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?

My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?

[This is probably more destined for the CC thread, but I am precluded from posting there because of my status] ... but ...

this discussion only appears to continue when someone from the BASSA/Unite side posts a comment elsewhere that results in it being copied in here and a set of comments following.

These people are never going to enter proper debate, as their
agenda is set.

If we were all to ignore the DH/LM/MissM's of this world, this whole dispute would fade into the abyss/hyperspace where it belongs.

By responding, we just feed the trolls and keep up their delusions that the dispute actually continues - it doesn't - BASSA have been destroyed (100%) and they are irrelevant.

So, what I am saying is, by commenting here, is that we give BASSA fuel to continue their campaign, so by stopping rising to the boring same old rhetoric from MissM etc, this thread would soon dry up due lack of interest.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.

Can you show me where call100 did not allow opinion?

What evidence do you have on all reps and unionists being liars and cheats?

Well I might get some agreement here. That man is definitely not the future of Unite. I just hope all that can vote in this particular election, do.

I broadly concur with TopBunk ... there is nothing new to be said until after the meeting/rally/whatever on the 6th.

What is, sadly, happening IMO is that frustration with the ongoing uncertainty is getting people to let of some blasts of ill-directed steam. That doesn't help anyone, and simply leads to more bickering.

What say you? Shall we all sit back quietly for a week, until there's something new and meaningful [or otherwise] to discuss?

Gains knowledge from Daily mail! Note for future reference..Not your fault then...
You are wrong about it being one sided (not like you to be wrong!). For the record I am not in the same camp as Scargill.
The Socialist workers party were not invited to the meeting they gate crashed. (Ooops wrong again)...
I have never hidden any Union credentials and made it clear where I'm coming from.(Oh dear! Wrong again)
I have not supported the BASSA dispute and have on several occasions criticised their methods. (wrong of you again!!). So, no, we do not always agree and therefore do not always stand together regardless of the issue.
If I was you I'd stop digging, but I doubt that will happen.

I doubt that McCluskey will win the leadership. but if he should it will not be with my vote. From a personal point of view, it has never bothered me who led the Union. They had little influence or effect on anything in my workplace in 30 years. All the hard work was done by reps and local FTO's.
As has you say, at that level everything is Political. It has little to do with day to day work negotiations any more than who wins the General Election. I have never used a Political view to interfere with a negotiation as I have never just voted for one party out of blind loyalty.
I don't think the majority of Union members (Any Union) could name the people at the top and I'm sure they are not interested.
So even when commenting about McCluskey it is not fair to generalise. I realise that different strokes for different folks is apt in situations like this and that there are many different opinions. We will never all agree, what a dull world it would be if we did??!

Uniforms and Briefings
 

Having just read the thread BA - Singapore, regarding the crew being too busy discussing the strikes and the BA-Bassa situation, than to provide a proper service and attend to the customers - ('in so many words'; in case of any picking nits being about ;)) - BA should bring in the following changes.

Instruct all uniformed staff that only the standard uniform may be worn - any deviation from this, such as Bassa lanyards, to be replaced with the correct item in exchange for the non standard item - staff not allowed to commence work until any non standard items replaced.

All briefings to be carried out under the authority and presence of the Captain, which will also help to bind the entire crew as one team entity. CSD's and SCCM's to ensure that the uniform standard is maintained at all times.

I firmly believe that this would help bring about a new team spirit and identify and remove some of the festering diversive influences currently at work. :ok:

An excellent post on the other thread by Colonel White. In my opinion of course.:ok:

Just read the latest instructions to the masses from DH on the other thread, apart from the usual threats etc., one thing appears to be emerging - a true Basil Fawlty style "Zis Iss Your Furhrer Speaking" - trouble is he means it - which seems to be an escalation of manner to one which I would expect to be shown in someone with serious mental problems. Although many have previously made comments about 'losing it', I believe that now he has and the sooner Unite disband Bassa the better, before the calls are made to go to war!

call100:

Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.

The fact that they were also present and welcome at Bedfont says much about BASSA...though its not as if an individual doesn't have a variety of incidents to cause their opinion of BASSA to be one of general disgust.

While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether.

I'm not so pessimistic. I think BASSA are fast becoming an utter irrelevance to BA, if they are not so already... some of their members are still having the odd kick, usually to try and wind up their most hated foe (the pilots), but only the most tunnel visioned of their members can believe they now have the industrial muscle to bring about the downfall of BA or a change in BA's CEO. BASSA has squandered all it's political leverage, quite why or how DH is allowed to stay in post, winding up the masses whilst having no "skin in the game" is beyond me. Union rules?????

call100

The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not

Very true.

Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.

Calling all reps and unionists liars and cheats will probably bring about a reaction, rather than a debate.

I have to agree with Litebulbs here. I would hazard a guess that in Union life, as in normal life, most people are honest and hard working, delivering their very best for the people they represent. There will also be a small minority of rogues, that sadly, is human nature.

What lies in between are those who choose to hold a different set of political ideals to ourselves. That does not make them criminal or negligent, indeed they are often honest and passionate and zealous in their cause.

What is not at issue here is the honesty or integrity of union reps in general. There may be one or two who are rogues, more driven by personal agendas than that of looking after their members best interests. I am sure most here would place DH in this camp, but did he start off that way off that way or has his ill judged actions pushed him into self interest?

You simply cannot go from the specific to the general and hope to maintain credibility. One union rep is corrupt ergo all union reps are corrupt, just makes no sense.

I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in

Litebulbs

I go back aways. When unions were driven by power hungry shop stewards and shopfloor reps. Things were dire and much harm was done. Some of that exists now if your head is in the 70's and 80's.

I am convinced that Unite is, and therefore so is BASSA, trying very hard to bring back the bad old days. As for liars and cheats: "BA are just circling 747's to make them look busy", "there are 24 jumbos parked at Cardiff" and endless other stuff on here and the CC thread. All proven to be untrue but Unite listened to them and followed, with DH pulling their strings. I probably did sound as generalising but there is a myriad of claim and counter claim based on lies. Made up tales of woe when none existed but the intention was to make it sound as rough as possible. The bitternes was not invented, it existed in the raw and in such a case it breeds more and more angst and I know from experience the breeding grounds are entrenched in these two unions and they are making it much much worse than it is.

Now we have a threat of another strike according to Unite. What for? The reinstatement of staff travel and re-instatement of the miscreant reps. Why?
That was NEVER a reason - it was created by the staff themselves. The other reasons have long gone away. They long for another strike! For God's sake why?

BA will never go down and they won't bow to either Unite or BASSA. BASSA will not win because they have dug a hole so deep that they cannot get out. But will they stop this stupidity - NO! But it WILL end that's for sure - in tears and heartbreak, broken homes and bills galore. That's what unions can do.

I do agree with the thought that McCluskey won't win the election as Gen Sec of Unite. But if not him - who?

Juan Togeh
 

Whilst I see your point of view Juan, being a simple soul, logic dictates to me that if these people are 'misguided', indeed horribly as you put it, one has to question their collective and individual grasp of simple concepts. Suffice to say "There are none so blind as those who 'refuse' to to see" with apologies from one who knows the physical feeling.

RTR
 

I understand what you are saying and no doubt there is a fair amount of truth in it. But we are not in the 70's and 80's now. Legislation is in place to prevent the wholesale return of industrial power and I see it getting more restrictive, rather than less, through the term of this Government, especially if a uberleftie gets the top job at Unite.

The two sides are in a fight and it is getting dirty, well it has been for a while. I would imagine that both sides are not going to come out of it smelling of roses, but it is obvious that one side has made a far better job of it, than the other.

Juan Toguh:

Regarding this statement:

With all due respect I would assert that one can be "passionate" and also "malicious".

My personal observation is that BASSA reps seem to have knowingly mislead their membership, thinking not of what harm they could be doing to the individuals they are supposed to be protecting, and more of their personal egos and positions.

I can find no other explantion for the messages submitted by Mr. Holley, the advice given by Ms. Malone, the actions during negotiations, etc., etc..

Arthur Scargill's Leadership
 

The quotes above are from 'The Grauniad,' hardly a publication of the Right Wing!
QED Die Fuhrer DH

Diplome and Oneye,

I agree with you both, I was making a general point re unions. I do think that the majority of the BASSA reps are wrong but not malicious or stupid or corrupt

As the loons who write BASSAs stuff are fond of historical allusions, the situation is akin to Europe in the thirties where the intelligent, politically aware saw the choice as either facism or communism. Neither proved to be the correct choice but at the time that is all anyone could see. This dispute has caused a polarization of opinion, it does not mean that one side is right and the other wrong merely that they reflect each other.

As I said in my opening lines there are some that are obviously both corrupt and malicious, sadly for BASSA they are the ones that are pulling the strings. Unions have, in the UK, been an incredible force for good - furthering workers rights and protecting the health and safety, and fighting for recompense when required. However, they became too powerful thinking that they ran the manufacturing industries of Britain and their actions effectively destroyed these industries. The unions through good intentions destroyed the jobs they were fighting for, shipbuilding is a classic example of this.

Yet those very unions that destroyed shipbuilding were trying to provide safety and security in long term jobs. The union leaders were acting with the best of intentions but with limited vision, certainly they had no strategic vision. All of the same can be said of BASSA. As to all their reps being malicious and corrupt, I think you are overstating the case. It is certain that DH has a massive vested interest in not settling on the current deal as he will remain out of a job if he does, he has to fight for reps to be re-instated. He has also proven himself to be petty minded. LM, by allowing him to continue with his drivel, is also be suspect, but then where does that put TW and DS - they have also stood by while DH has bullied.

Ultimately all of this means, I suppose, that this is not a simple matter that can be condensed into a few soundbites.

You get the debate you deserve.....Your posts were statements (According to you true) not points of debate....You insisted on tarring all with the same brush which was totally ridiculous...So the Holier than thou attitude doesn't really wash...

Anyway, to move on.....I'm not sure that there is any leadership within BASSA. Too many 'reps' are making individual statements and responding on forums and nothing seems to be joined up.
I've never been involved in negotiations or IA where we would have allowed the maverick actions that BASSA reps seem to indulge in.
There are checks and balances to ensure IA is a last resort. Something has broken down and needs fixing ASAP.
I agree that it's either fixed or BASSA will cease to exist by attrition. Hopefully someone will step forward and take the flak and turn it around....Slim hope, but, there is still time, just.