Thought for the day....
 

....by 'Hector Vector':

http://www.pprune.org/5859940-post1899.html

A 'senior manager'. Spurious.

Well Holley does think he is a senior BA Manager

The article was printed in the Grauniad a month or so back as I recall. I note that HV hasn't provided the link and thus is breaking copyright (unless of course he was the original author, surely not ;))

Edited to add link to article: Guardian article

Yes indeed, the self destruction is well advanced. Hector Vector's latest post on the other thread so clearly reveals the poster to be DH. He takes every opportunity of polite and considered dissenting opinions to attempt to construct rifts based on unreasonable views from his own stable. He then goes on to relate an unsubstantiated tale of a disillusioned manager at Waterside as if this is the majority view at that facility to open his wrongly perceived rift between other pro-BA posters further.

As the very same tale came out of his stable in an earlier propaganda release of several weeks ago it has done nothing but reveal the extreme desperation to which this individual has sunk. Imagine being the general secretary of a trade union and feeling you need to spend any time whatsoever unwittingly embarrassing yourself on a public web forum to win your fight. BASSA's leaders are not worldly-wise business people they are regular high-school leavers who through a bit of savvy found they could use intimidation to wield power over management and better their lot. For the first time they are getting an insight into what it really takes to play at the level of managing a major global coporate entity and are way out of their depths. They narrow-mindedly believe their problems will be solved when WW leaves not realising that he is simply being promoted to a position where he will still have responsibility for BA CC's costs and will thus hire competent staff under him to continue the action he has started. They pretend to understand what is good for BA but have no idea of the complex inter-relationships and balances that a CEO has to deal with on a daily basis to make the entity function.

BASSA and its leadership need help to do the honourable thing before somebody's desperation leads to endangerment of personal safety. The kindest help would come from close friends. Beyond that it should come from the UNITE leadership through its personnel (sorry, HR - showing my age!) department. Unfortunately BA has done everything it possibly can to show compassion in offering to preserve living standards, etc., until these valued staff retire but BASSA's leadership has simply not seen the light.

Holley certainly needs to be removed, but I imagine that someone, somewhere (Unite?) is wondering how to go about such a thing.
This foolish man has become the face and voice of this dispute, the Tokyo Rose of BASSA if you like.

However, removing him is akin to the care you have to take with an employee that is likely to become disgruntled and disruptive once he knows its coming. I’m sorry to say I have in the past had to change passwords on systems overnight and intercept people upon their arrival for work to tell them it’s their last day. Underhand, but alas sometimes a requirement.

Unite could have a similar situation with DH. He has access to “official” communications channels, membership databases (such as they are) and some degree of control over the forum – he’s already lost his job remember and may decide to go out kicking and screaming perhaps.

I certainly struggle to imagine a smooth handover of power based on what I have observed / read over the last few years of these fools operation.

"Have also been told UNITE are talking with Willie and that Woodley has expressly excluded BASSA. He and UNITE are furious with Holley. Woodley told Holley his call for wildcat action re: shades must be withdrawn as it would give the co. carte blanche to sack. Holley refused so UNITE issued retraction themselves. Fuming !! He now wants to isolate BASSA. With internal elections coming up, woodley doesn't want anything to do with what he calls the BASSA DISASTER. It's over. It's no longer a fight for CC; it's an internal fight to preserve their own positions. Don't know where we go from here."

This is a txt sent to a poster (StoneyBridgeRadar) on the other thread from a colleague. Telling, don't you think?

On the basis of what I have seen of Woodley I don't think he has handled this particularly well - this simply begs the question "What took you so long?"

Might I suggest that "Comical Ali" might be more appropriate?

:ok:

As we all commented at the time of the first strike call that McCluskey saw the "BASSA Disaster" with the potential damage it could cause to his union leadership ambitions early-on and distanced himself very smartly. What surprised me is how McCluskey, Woodley, Simpson, Holley, et. al., all continued to deliver the superior, righteous indignation, style union rhetoric (including factually provable lies in their often quoted numbers) to the press at large thus making themselves all look like clumsy and foolish dinosaurs in this progressive age where collaboration is the modern flavour for Industrial Relations. I have the vivid memory of feeling sorry for the undignified sight of Woodley at the end of his career being interviewed in front of the BBC News cameras trying desperately to spin the fact that only 3500 had actually been bothered to reject BA's offer and to make it sound like a crushing victory when everyone around could see it was all over!

Perhaps UNITE may be able to take the BASSA Disaster (together with its apparently overall declining membership) as a very big learning experience on how to modernise its entire approach to IR moving forwards. We can only hope they have learned that endorsing picketing with piggy posters, Hitler affiliations, men's underwear and mob mentality, jingoistic, bullying tactics, while BA's management and staff continued to work and respond professionally in the face of this unacceptable behaviour, just made the Union and its members look stupid and should have no place in the future.

No doubt we will see in time if anything has been learnt............

I do love a bit of 70's style union rhetoric rhetoric.

Litebulb..lol.

I'm of a mind at times to think the only way to save BASSA is to take Mr. Holley's keyboard away. ;)

Does anyone else begin to have the feeling that DH is becoming deranged - the image the springs to mind is the police superintendent in the pink panther, standing behind his desk, drooling, the eyes spinning as the white coats gently lead him away.

The only problem of course is that derangement can bring about a lot of destruction unless contained, and where is the containment going to come from in the present scenario - the unions (whichever one you look at) all seem pathetically useless - despite boasting about being worldwide, multimillion membership organisations.

Oh well, roll on Christmas!! :ok: (you've got to have something to look forward to).

Yes he really has blown his gasket hasn't he. Sad really on many levels but then again, never mind.

Litebulbs
 

That's quite a droll remark. :)

Entaxei

As to Holley, no I don't think you are the only one who thinks he's deranged or, at least, very seriously deluded. I have thought that for some time, yet only now does it beg the question as to what to do about it and who is responsible?

If the Captain of a ship goes doolally, then there are procedures and protocols for deal with that situation as, I suspect, there are if the Captain of an airliner goes the same way. Rather a more serious and pressing problem there though. :eek:

If the CEO of a large company starts bothering bus queues and trying to smoke pigeons, then his/her fellow board members have procedures which, I believe, they are obliged to follow. Who though, will lead DH sobbing from the piece and ensure he is safe, warm and unlikely to hurt himself or others? :ugh:

Roger.

As a long-term CSD, DH would have been earning 40K+. He is reputed to get 70K+ from his job with BASSA, giving a total of 110K+.
He lost his job, so is reduced to the 70K+. He must relinquish that post at the next election, thus leaving him with just his BA pension.
His hope was to be granted a sinecure by Unite, but his last two wobblies have enraged the top brass there, so probably put the kibosh on that.
Is it any wonder the poor luvvy is deranged?

At a salary level of £110,000 there would be no personal tax allowance under the new rules established in the last Labour budget.Cigar box calculations lead to the conclusion that on £110,000 the tax liability would have been £36,440 for tax year 2010/2011 leaving a net of £73,560 after tax. On a miserly £70,000 the tax liability would be £17,654 so leaving a net after tax of £52,326. So the salary decrease might be £40,000 but in real terms any such job loss, based on rumoured figures and suspect calculations, makes a difference of only £21,214. Hard news if that's the mortgage payment of course. It is surprising just how significant the loss of the tax allowance calculated on a progressive basis on salaries over £100,000.

A balancing comment
 

A balancing comment..............

I would humbly suggest that we might think carefully about the labels that we give people.

For about 40 years, BA managers have allowed TUs to operate virtually without restriction. It is the managers that put in place lots of the stuff that customers complain about. It is the managers that allowed check-in staff and CC to have appalling sickness records. It is the managers that insisted that on-board customer feedback sheets were handed to the "CSDs".........thus allowing editing by some. It is the managers that allowed BA CC to claim extra money for lights not working, that allowed them such stupid s/h schedules and breaks at lhr. Anyone remember the old-style baggage handling regime? Anyone remember that BA Engineering used to re-write perfectly good manuals from the OEMs??
I could go on..............

Thus, when the "managers" start to take some ownership of things that they should have sorted out years ago, those staff impacted react.

Not surprising , that.

Local reps who have only known one way of doing things - theirs - will obviously react. Very few of them have worked in the real world. (Other than installing kitchens, of course).
As it has been many years since anything was different, it is also understandable that they think it is all down to WW, and that when he has gone, everything will revert to how it has been for 40 years.

When the only life you have known changes, it is tough.

AO

Wise words.

Both parties to this dispute have a lot to answer for.

It is pleasing to see balance coming back into this but I can't help feeling its only because there is a sense that it's all over now.

I also wonder about some of the logic used here.

Its not ok to post in the other forum as an outsider pretending to be a BA insider but it is ok to post here as a BA insider pretending to be an outsider.

Does it make any difference at the end of the day and if it is really such an issue why not take insiders behind closed doors?

I of course acknowledge that the forum belongs to someone else and it is their absolute prerogative to do as they choose but does it actually achieve anything.

Safety concerns
If that comment "Its not ok to post in the other forum as an outsider pretending to be a BA insider but it is ok to post here as a BA insider pretending to be an outsider" refers to Ancient Observer I suspect he/she like me is a BA retiree, so not allowed to post there. I've not seen anything to imply that we shouldn't comment here using our vast stock of ancient history lessons and maybe quite recent background!

The image that springs to my mind is this one:

YouTube - ‪Downfall trailer‬‎

The script lends itself to a parody of this dispute. There are some 'veally' good ones out there already (I particularly enjoyed the Indian Call Centre one) but I think DH warrants one of his own :E

oh dear
 

Hector / Duncan appears to be in meltdown on the CC tread

Reason has gone, ranting continues - talk about split personalities, wifes CC, he's a CSD, previously an aircraft owner and then a (BA?) pilot.

Talk about lost the plot. Please, any CC reading their thread think and act, you are being treated as cannon fodder for a few individuals egos

On the positive side, more time, the better the tom crop - get my drift?

Everyone is allowed to post on SLF as even if we work for an airline we still travel as passengers too.

I have got the impression that most posters like the input on this thread from people in the industry. Many of the other SLF threads actually require the input of aviation workers because they are often posing questions for us to answer.

slast: I believe that post may refer to a BASSA insider posting on the Cabin Crew forum with opinions that others may not agree with in comparison to the BASSA forum being an absolute "shutdown" regarding those not adhereing to the BASSA marching orders.

I don't believe it was directed at Ancient Observer or others on this forum in the slightest.

DH may not be getting as much subscription money (if any at all), as some people think.

This is a quote from the Unite rule book (available here):

(My bolding).

Unfortunately, BASSA's rule book is not available online to the profane and, as someone else pointed out, the audited accounts are nowhere to be found. They may not even be available to members?

The Monty Python version of the dispute so far. King Arthur v The Black Knight. BA v BASSA? It's funny anyway.
YouTube - ‪Monty Python-The Black Knight‬‎

From The Wall Street Journal regarding BA disciplinary action:

UPDATE: BA Suspends Another BASSA Representative - WSJ.com

..and a WSJ commentary regarding the BASSA/Unite disagreement. The "naughty chair" comment made me smile. It looks like BASSA's branding as unreasonable is continuing.

Is BASSA an Unruly Child for Unite in British Airways Row? - The Source - WSJ

No
 

Just for clarification..............

Whilst I have worked in Aviation, I do not and have never worked for BA.

Unlike the BA folk, and many others in Aviation, I have spent many years outside Aviation, where customers really do count..

I believe that one of BA's problems - and a problem for Aviation generally, is that far too few employees have ever worked in the tough world outside Aviation.
Aviation has lived with an average growth rate of 6% per annum. Even after 9.11, this historic rate was re-established until Lehmans went down. Continued growth has led to continuous complacency.

I've read alot of the posts on here that are clearly anti-BASSA.....esp from you Finn. I don't really come on here much but I wish BALPA had the bloody guts that BASSA has. Makes me laugh how weak our union is.

I fail to understand how my last post could have in any way been linked to any particular poster. I just thought in this current lull of activities it was worth considering a few issues from a different perspective.

If its not ok to post in the other forum as an outsider pretending to be a BA insider, is it then ok to post here as a BA insider pretending to be an outsider?

Does it actually make any difference to the situation?
How can one effectively manage it?

I believe that the objection to Hector is not so much his many faces and occupations, its that he simply does not engage in any sort of real exchange and simply talks "at" posters rather than "to" them.

Trolls are like that.

There is also the suspicion that its Duncan Holley...and therefore not qualified to post. His writing style is similar to Mr. Holley, but he sounds a bit more sober. ;)

I don't know if it is DH, as I am sure the mods would have investigated (speaking from experience!)

Litebulbs:

Agreed.

It could be anyone...though he does use many of the same references as Duncan. If he starts spouting the lyrics to "Dancing Queen"....case closed :)

So, what next?
 

What will be the next move and who will make it?

Priceless, Diplome, priceless!

I would not expect any "moves" from BA, they have what they want. They have the savings that they need going forward and MF is being introduced.

BASSA are in a difficult position, they have to do something or this all dies a slow death.

If they do nothing they effectively sign their own death warrant. Having failed to achieve anything meaningful by this IA and giving in, crew will see them as ineffective and numbers will dwindle, though who will benefit from that CC89 or the PCCC remains to be seen.

Crew that commute by air and need ST to do that viably for the long term need some hope that they will get their ST back - even in some limited fashion, or they will have to consider their long term future with BA.

My gut feeling is that BASSA will have to do something before BA but what can they do that will achieve anything of value I am not sure. IA is at its most effective when used as a threat, I'm not sure that BA believe anymore that BASSA IA is an actual serious threat anymore. The classic "I am voting for a strike in order to force BA back to the negotiating table" has been proven to be a paper tiger. BASSA need a viable threat, if they do not have one they have little to bargain with. The members of BASSA who are most affected by IA so far, are probably now the ones that need a successful resolution to the dispute. This also puts pressure on BASSA to come up with something.

Quite what that action is and how successful remains to be seen.

Litebulbs
 

My guess from Holley's increasingly demented ramblings is that he's been cast out from the tribe/pride/whatever. So next step could be elections to BASSA reps. Not sure about this as I seem to remember there are all kinds of arcane restrictive practices surrounding eligibility that limit senior office holders pretty much to CSDs only. So Unite has to sort that out first, ie make the reps sort of, well, representative of the membership.

BA won't do anything. As far as they're concerned the dispute is over. There are no strikes, they've reduced headcount by about 2,000 FTE, they've got their cost reductions, they don't even have to give the pay rises they budgeted to 90% of crew. Will they do anything to provoke a reaction? I'm not sure what the upside is for them in doing so. I suspect if, between them, BA and Unite can sort out the rep problem, BA's next step would then be conciliatory. They could then move on and concentrate on the issues that really will determine WW's legacy, namely the Iberia and AA ventures.

Would there not be a problem of a surplus of existing staff then? The headcount was reduced, but it will grow again as this new fleet develops. He still has to get the bulk of existing crew onto new contracts, or at least new working patterns, to achieve the total savings that have been stated as necessary.

Not sure about that litebulbs, the imposition of 1 crewmember off the aircraft fulfilled all of BASSAs required savings. New Fleet is all icing on the cake.

I think the problem probably lies in Unite and Bassa no longer agreeing on what to do.

I think unite wanted BASSA to recomend the membership accept the last offer and that did not happen.

When DS and TW told us we were going to get the chance to vote they said that the union would NOT try and influence the vote.

However when we got the ballot paper, the union also included a copy of the offer and basically went through it bit by bit saying how bad it was.

I think BASSA would like to take BA to court over the staff travel but I am guessing that Unite are not happy to foot the bill.

I think that maybe the silence from both Unite and BASSA is because they are in conflict with each other now maybe.

Good news for Unite and BA, not so good for BASSA:

BA staff close to deal - News & Advice, Travel - The Independent

The issue of staffing numbers is an interesting one. The one down scheme provided savings initially required...though we now have the Mixed Fleet recruitment and they will be in operation in short order.

There will be some natural loss due to retirement, etc., but what the regular rate of that for BA Cabin Crew is not something I'm aware of. How many of the more militant individuals who lost their Staff Travel can continue paying for their lifestyle choice? Its obvious from Mr. Holley's most recent messages that BASSA plans nothing in the short term to give them a promise of relief.

Some of those airfares represent a high price to check in and punch your time clock. At what point does it become impossible?