The real issue here is nothing to do with the merits of blinds down or up.
It is about the need for new, fully flexible open contracts similar to those worked by most of the rest of humanity which say the company has bought "x" amount of your time and that for an agreed remuneration you will come to work, do whatever is reasonably required of you well, expeditiously and cheerfully and at the end of the day go home feeling you've done a good day's work. The BASSA view, similar to old heavy industry unions, is that every aspect of what people do should be subject to union control, remain described in minute detail so that anything new or outside it is "not agreed". It is what strangled many other British companies and industries (and the people working in them) while ironically the unions which presided over this live on, even if in merged form. The idea of pride in your work, in your company or your workplace viewed is seen as alien and in some way undesirable. Individual's enthisiasm and initiative is also trodden underfoot. Happy employees do not make good fodder for traditional unions who see anything not specifically pre-agreed is seen as "new work" and a horrific imposition and the basis for their beloved ongoing aggravation and trench warfare.
A lot of people in BA, including many cabin crew, want a new future and are happy to change to have the best chance of securing one (bearing in mind that nothing us guaranteed in the 21st century ). They do not want the heavy hand of BASSA or anyone else on their shoulder saying "Don't do that, don't even pick up that bit of litter or we will give you a hard time".It's time for BA's staff to stand up and tell BASSA/Unite to get off their backs and let them enjoy their jobs without the constant background noise of misery.

Skylion:

Interesting post though I feel compelled to state that BASSA is truly giving the word "Union" a poorer image. Many Unions are good organizations that work in partnership with management to provide the best possible structure for their members while maintaining a workplace that can accomodate change and profitability.

BASSA seems to simply be divorced from any thought regarding the well-being of BA, co-workers and their customers.

Regarding Lotpax statement:

This, to me, seems to be on the line of "next they will have us cleaning the cabins". There is no evidence that BA is abusing the tasks they have requested of Cabin Crew. BASSA's constant threat of "this will lead to...." means that increased service and profitability can't even start.

Directives such as the one issued by BASSA re the blind issue only make individuals like myself look more foreward to flying with Mixed Fleet, where service actually becomes a priority.

Do you think it would be reasonable for the crews to clean up the cabin, per Wizz?

It seems reasonable to me for a trade union to try and avoid 'scope creep' in a job description.

In this instance, it seems the company has bought 'x' amount and is wishing to make it 'x+5 minutes.

If the industrial landscape was settled and peaceful, maybe the employees would happily give the 5 minutes, but it isn't, is it?

Before anyone thinks I am backing BASSA, I am not, but British Airways is not exactly the most attractive choice of air carrier at the moment, is it?

Maybe time they resolved this long running dispute (however they do it) and get back to focusing on making a profit.

The big difference between shutting down engines during taxi and saving on the APU is that there is no negative affect whatsoever from shutting down an engine, everything still works as advertised.

The APU issue is a health issue and a pax comfort issue. You need to determine where the limits are because as litebulbs says, one court case due to pax collapsing in an overheated cabin will cost lots of bucks.

In addition a hot cabin is uncomfortable and frustrating for pax and also increase the human ability to sweat and so smell. Coming back from Dubai one time the pax next to me said "never again. If this airline wants to scrimp on my comfort in this heat by not putting the air conditioning on, I'll take my business elsewhere".

So despite your calculated savings Juan, the hidden cost may be far more.

Just to put some additional perspective on this.

Now do you really consider that placing the blinds down has any relevant effect against an air conditioning unit capable of cooling 50 homes?

Its bows and arrows against nuclear weapons.

Lotpax
 

I agree up to a point but crew have thirty minutes clearance time built into their rosters for post flight duties such as this I don't see why this should be a big issue.

On the other side of the flight deck door over the years we have regularly seen extra and/or different tasks added to our list of things to do, from minor stuff such as radio/datalink loadsheets, datalink ATC clearances, GPS approaches, Satphones, Enhanced GPWS.....All of these changes have meant at least some "homework" for us and have effected our working day. Now maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect my Union to be intimately involved in trialling and agreeing all those changes.

The question then should be, I guess, is the 30 mins enough to cover pulling the blinds down, as well as the other tasks. If it is, then I'm less impressed with the union message and thank you for sharing this information.

Well Mr Pony, the point is we don't actually know the real reason why Bassa won't play ball.

It may be stupidity but it may also have a valid reason. The airline I mentioned in a previous post I should add wasn't BA.

But the fact remains if it is then a genuine health issue you can only have one valid procedure, packs on above a certain temp. Blinds won't get the desired result every time, packs will.

Lotpax: No, and they haven't been asked to.

Safety Concern: You are letting your pro-union stance cloud the logic of this directive. BA has not declared this to be an "cure all and only tool used for cabin temperature". Its to be used in conjunction with other methods.

I've been on flights, and my husband has also, where we were asked to close blinds upon leaving. There is no reason why this request can't be made on a regular basis with a quick walkthrough by Cabin Crew afterwards to close the few that may remain open.

But...that would be an adult approach. Something that seems to be beyond BASSA at the moment.

well diplome I don't know whats behind the Bassa stance. some others here have already mentioned it, you can be flexible to a point.

However if you are not careful that inch becomes a country mile. Its not about Bassa, I have travelled enough times from hot places and suffered because of a stupid company policy about saving money.

My 747 ticket cost 400 quid. Lets say 320 pax. My max cost from the ticket to run the apu is less than 1 pound. The normal average cost will be significantly less. Just run the apu, keep everyone cool and happy.

The airline risks losing more than it gains.

Blinds etc
 

Wouldn't it be better just to ask ECoHR to opine on the matter when considering reinstatement of the fundamental human right to cheap tickets to Barbados? Aren't the two issues inextricably linked?

Discussion of blinds, air conditioning etc. is all very interesting, but may be going off at a tangent from the main issue, which is 'Who runs the airline - BASSA or BA?'

Fundamentally, it doesn't really matter why BA want to close the blinds. If they just thought it looked nicer, crew should still do it or face disciplinary action. It's a simple operational instruction, it's virtually no work and the H&S point is a joke.

The only significance of the reason for the instruction is if it moves into the area of passenger safety, in which case dissenting crew might additionally face criminal charges.

Having said all that, part of me would like to see someone try it on, if only to observe the outcome. A dispute on something like this could be a final tipping point for BA (assuming of course that it has not already been reached).

SC you are right when you say that there is a hidden cost in not providing a comfortable environment for pax boarding. It is something that I find deeply irritating to get on board an aeroplane and find the cabin temp in the high 30s and nothing being done to rectify the issue. These are not either/or decisions - it can all be done for the benefit of our colleagues and customers and at the same time saving a few bob. Wasting energy is going to become an ever more important issue as this century progresses, doing nothing because we have a machine that can do it while expending lots of energy simply won't cut it any more. There is an equivalence in that line of argument with saying why buy new aircraft these VC10's can still do the job - they just burn lots more fuel.

In the gulf etc then obviously either PCA and or APU is required and there is no question as to this. The real issue, as I keep stating is the temperate zones where it may well be possible to achieve this by simple measures which allow the allow the cabin to STAY cooler on turn rounds. It is not a matter of cooling the cabin, simple physics will show that shutting a blind will not cool anything. These are all preventative measures. Even in warmer climes where it is essential that APU/PCA is used if the starting temp is 37C rather than 39C it means less energy will be used to cool the cabin and this will represent a saving to company - maybe not a lot but certainly worth chasing, it is a no cost saving.

So you don't consider that the quarter of a billion pounds fine for price fixing may have something to do with BA's predicament?

@Juan, its a non issue for the future

These are run on normal electricity, they require no air which means they require no apu or engine.

As I said, blinds against packs capable of cooling 50 homes. Bows and arrows against nukes

That is not relevant, even if that case had not fallen apart, it changes nothing. We are where we are and waste for waste sake is just bad business.

Alternative union advice:
 

"It has been brought to our attention that crew are being asked to close all the window blinds at the end of each flight. This has not been agreed with BASSA and no safe working practice has been trialled. The normal practice when anything new is introduced is that the Health, Safety and Welfare committee would carry out a risk assessment to confirm that everything is safe.
Please note that no provision has been put in place for this extra duty and therefore you should not be carrying it out. If we do this it will become normal working practice and you will then become obliged to do it and then what next - pick up all the litter?
Please politely refuse if you are asked to do this at the end of your flight"

Alternatively: "It has been brought to our attention that crew are being asked to close all the window blinds at the end of each flight. So far, the Union has not been consulted over this, so we are unsure if this is official company policy. We are seeking clarification from management on this, because we believe that not all crews have sufficient time to undertake this additional task. However, we would advise that until this has been resolved, you may be subject to disciplinary action up to or including dismissal if you fail to carry out such an instruction"

I agree with JT and perhaps it should be noted that BA are actually following at least one other airline in getting CC to carry out this task (see other thread).

Incidentally I have never quite understood why the cabin lights have to be dimmed when landing at night.

That is a simple half-way house measure to help your eyes adjust from bright to dim light. The theory is that should a landing accident or incident occur and you have to evacuate the aeroplane you will have a better chance of survival as your eyes will already be part adapted to the dark.

The science behind the effectiveness of lowering the blinds is irrelevant and a complete misnomer.

When the company issues a perfectly reasonable and lawful instruction to its staff it is not for BASSA to take it upon itself to tell cabin crew to just disregard the company's instructions, citing spurious health and safety grounds.

Safety Concerns
 

If only it was that easy. Most airports won't let you start the APU until 20mins before departure and insist that it is shut down 5mins after arrival

As for closing blinds we have been doing it for years where necessary, and as somebody suggested asking pax to do it before leaving the a/c.

What a load of hot air over nothing !!!!

Most airports...where? Never been a rule at any airport I worked at.
But anyway I agree this has drifted off, lets bring this back.

So the company on Monday ask for CC to perform a simple "extra" task. How do we know that by Friday CC won't be clearing up, performing boarding checks at the gate and and and.

Where does one draw the line or do we allow t&c's to go backwards by stealth?

In fact all your office staff, why can't you clean up the office before you go and I don't need to employ a cleaner. Where does it end? Where does it start?

The vast majority of employees do not have the luxury of renegotiating their T&Cs every time there is the slightest change to their workload. BA is a business, not a staff employment club.

If it is reasonable and within their job description then there's no reason why they shouldn't do it. Cabin crew won't be asked to perform duties outside the cabin, not least because they don't have the training to do so.

Fascinating to read, in the CC only forum, that DH thinks that his "Loyal Union Members" have been harshly dealt with by WW. Says it all really - their true purpose in life should be to be "Loyal BA Employees"!

Safety Concerns:

Your post is EXACTLY why BA passengers are looking forward to Mixed Fleet, why Mixed Fleet is necessary and why it is also necessary that Mixed Fleet be kept separate from the influence of the hard-line BASSA members.

An example. My hubby reserved a local establishment for the England/U.S. World Cup game. He didn't host the bar but he did host the food and several large screen televisions were brought in for the event. There were even tables and televisions outside under canopies.

It was a simply wonderful event. Heavily attended, wonderful exchange between the Company and community, a definite plus. One of his employees came up to me and said "We've never had anything like this, it's simply brilliant.".

If my husband used your and BASSA's logic the event would never have happened because his first thought would be "If I do this, then what will they expect next...I'm starting down a dangerous path.".

Thank goodness he, and the three unions that participate in success with him, have a different approach.

This is direct from the London Heathrow Aerodrome Book and shows the regulations regarding APU usage.

It is fairly common to find APU restrictions, engineers may have different restrictions, but for crews on everyday operations it can be quite restrictive.

Safety Concerns
 

Well at most of the airports I have visited worldwide (i/c large transport a/c) there are now restrictions, sometimes severe, on APU use.

I'm baffled. Not for the first time with this whole dispute, but this ranks up there as a milestone in the silly season.

I quite often fly out of LGW to a rather nice - but often very warm - destination in Eastern Europe. I'm also used to hearing, on boarding the aircraft, that there'll be a possible 2 hour ATC delay. Often turns out to be 20 minutes, but anyway. The blinds are always pulled down when this happens - I assume because it's the middle of the afternoon, bloomin' hot, and the sun is beating down on the aircraft and if you're sat there for up to two hours then the APU isn't really an option. I consequently assume that the crew have no issues with doing the same on return to LGW, should it be a hot day there? So if this diktat has been imposed on LGW crew for as long as I can remember - why another big song and dance re: the LHR crew and where were BASSA when someone decided at Gatwick that this was to be working practice? And if it's not declared policy, then a big thanks to all crew who have the common sense to try and make things more pleasant for passengers.

Believe me I get the duty hours+ sneaking on the 5 mins extra argument as I've been there with an airline doing that to me, but this really is just coming across as trying to just be difficult for the sake of it. I just cannot grasp that every tiny alteration to working practices must be subjected to such scrutiny on every occasion. An effective union should be there to protect employees when there is a genuine concern - minor alterations to working practices just don't fall within this category. They just don't. Whatever happened to sound judgement and the ability to distinguish when there is a real need to go into bat for members? It's remarkable to me that window blinds are even up for debate, and yet New Fleet/Mixed Fleet was a big fat no to negotiation. Does anybody here seriously believe that the pages we're spending on discussion APU policies at airports was even in BASSA's mind when they brought this up? This is just a good old fashioned "let's be as difficult as we can be if we can't strike" tactic.

As a BA ff, I'm sticking with LGW and LCY whenever I can. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and the crew from those two bases have consistently delivered fantastic service - LHR is just too bogged down in this industrial dispute for me to chance spending my money on the possibility of crewmembers wanting to be difficult or play silly buggers.

I accept Wiggy's input, but have to ask why would you expect it to be any other way after a dispute that has being going on for nearly 9 months?

The management has played hard ball with staff travel, the union is playing hard ball back and the whole performance is doing ther airline harm.

SC
 

I am glad to see you are coming back to the central issue. I agree that any extra task can be the thin end of the wedge, and it is the duty of any responsible union to keep an eye on this.

And yes - the tricky bit is where to draw the line. It's basically a judgement call, and I suggest a large helping of common sense is the most helpful tool in this, together with a good look at the wider issues.

If you are just playing devil's advocate, fair enough. But if you are really agonising over this decision, a quick re-read of the hundreds (thousands?) of posts on these forums may be of assistance. Also, BASSA's insistence on a H&S committee review of the dangeous task of lowering a blind may give you a clue about who is acting in good faith here.

Because that strategy has not worked so far, so what evidence is there that this is going to help resolve matters now? In what way will any of this convince WW to settle this dispute on BASSA's terms? It won't. They know that. This is tantamount to a v-sign.

This isn't playing hardball. That would have been to sit down and thrash out a damn good deal re: Mixed Fleet. That would have been playing hardball. It's easy to be petty.

I have followed these threads for some months and thought that BASSA had lost the plot. However on mature reflection it becomes clear that they did not have a plot merely a series of convulsive twitches each one causing annother shot in the foot.

Is it any wonder then that they hobble from farce to disaster.

Lotpax:

This approach is why BASSA is on the extreme weak end of the dispute, and they simply refuse to learn lessons.

"What would I expect after 9 months?".

Let's be serious here. If after 9 months I was on the receiving end of an absolutely failed strike, an entity that was now more empowered to make future strikes irrelevant, with a City that has increased their backing of my employer, tens of thousands of co-workers that are determined that I not win, and a U.K. public that pretty much loathes me, I might say..."I need to present a more serious side to counteract all of this negative impression.".

But no, BASSA stays true to its reputation and issues a message asking for a safety review over CLOSING BLINDS!

Is there someone in the background of BASSA determined to make them look like a bad Panto?

If the CC "are BA" as they claim, then it is time for BA to be "changed". In all my years I have never witnessed a situation such as the putting the blinds down, hot towels in WT Plus nonsense (for what it is worth, it is not guaranteed in Club World) . Get real BASSA. Your behaviour has demonstrated you can not lead, manage or compromise.. so what is your purpose?

Bring on New Fleet.. advertise what flights will be operated by them and I am certain the market will support them with their custom.

Like the above poster I have been following this thread and the CC only thread as well. I fly out of what would be considered a very warm climate here at MCO. My airline of choice is Delta and when I get on the plane all the shades are down and the aircraft is on ground air as well as ground power. Are these not available at the wonderful Middle Eastern airports I hear so much about? The APU is shut down as soon as ground power and air are connected and this is normally before the door has been opened.

This whole issue of pulling down the shades being escalated to union involvement shows there are great cultural differences between the UK and the US.

It's not a cultual difference it just shows that BASSA are preparede to subjugate H & S laws to their own IR ends.
If they ain't happy perhaps they should involve the HSE. (who would probably laugh them out of the room)

Swissflyer:

Isn't it a rather sad result of this dispute that many frequent flyers are now rather adamant that they would prefer NOT to travel with BASSA strikers.

Hopefully BA will provide some code to its patrons so that we will know what flights are Mixed Fleet so that we can book with ease.

Though, if I understand representations correctly, we will be able to recognize them at various sites from their hats. A very good branding from BA to its passengers. :ok:

Diplome

I am flying on BA for the first time next week in Club World. If you are interested I will be happy to share my opinions on your airline when I return. I am a very seasoned traveler and will be very interested to see how I am treated.

Diplome
 

The hat idea is brilliant. Tell us more. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif

Is it the same as the rumour I heard (OK, maybe started) that anyone wearing a BASSA lanyard will have to wear a comedy hat - or crash helmet whilst engaged in hazardous blind-pulling operations? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif

Apart from the rather stupidly worded statement from BASSA I have no idea why it's a problem. However, It seems to be a problem of some significance as it's filled four or five pages of the forum.:rolleyes:
In the scheme of this dispute it hardly warrants such prominence. I would think that the problem is a minor one in comparison to all the other troubles for BA.
Outside of this BA (and this forum) there seems to be little concern or opinion one way or the other about the dispute. BASSA have no support in the greater TU movement.

Switzerland
 

Not a place you think of as hot what with all that snow etc. yet...

Zurich early to mid afternoon in summer 30 degrees was not unusual and

they certainly used to ban the use of APU (noise reduction) as briefed earlier on this thread - 20 mins before departure - close to the time passengers (SLF) arrived.

I knew a captain who used to regularly close blinds, assisting the crew on turnaround (also used to wet the tea on occasion), on the sunward side and also ensure all the normal air vents were and open pointed all in the same direction. It just about kept the cabin at a similar temperature to that of arrival.

Once the SLF had embarked their body heat and the, now open to sunlight, windows ensured a significant increase in temperature.

I've been there, seen it, experienced it - blinds help even if in only a small way.

R.

All

I have a solution for the 'pulling down the blind problem' once the aircraft is in its parking slot, post flight.

er hem

Ladies and Gentleman this is your Captain speaking

'Would you be so kind as to pull down the blind of your window before disembarking, - i really do appreciate your assistance in this matter and wish you a safe onward journey' Thank you for flying with BA etc etc

Just a thought......