I would disagree with your classifications, mine would be;

CC BASSA hardliners..yes (will do whatever they want regardless of consequence)
CC BASSA sheep..yes (will do whatever BASSA tells them)
CC BASSA timid..yes ( too scared to do anything)
CC BASSA Realist...yes (definately in the minority)
CC Realist.. Backing BA

But your comments regarding PCCC are spot on imo.

johno,

I have spent over 20 years flying as crew and the one thing I do know is that pax expect those in charge of them to be able to stand up and confidently take the lead when things go wrong.

From what I have read, and again this may well be seen as a sweeping generalisation there are vast numbers of BA CC who are frightened fartless of even going to work during a strike and upsetting their friends, hence the taxi's, travel out of uniform, escorts in and out of buildings etc etc policies. CC who sit in their rooms down route for fear of causing offence, who are frightened to own up to other crew members about the fact they do not support the strike and the list goes on.

Imagine how this must read for the travelling public.

I have read some very emotive posts from those at the head of the PCCC and I am in agreement with what they stand for. But I am of the opinion that they should have put their heads above the parapet quite some time ago to show the BASSA hardliners that the fight is really on and to re establish the confidence of the travelling public that they are being cared for by capable people and not shrinking violets.

....and that would probably work, for my household now has copies of recorded delivery letters requesting that the union confirm membership exit back in Feb and despite that and several phone calls the only communications recieved from the union is usually ballots..!

The membership administration is a total mess, it has to be.

Neptunus Rex
 

The 100 Academic support letter appeared in the Guardian.
I seem to remember that at the time someone analysed the background of the "academics" and all were left wing and/or ex trade union or sponsored by trade unions.
A flawed cross section ???

BASSA spin again.....

I've been away for a week, but it seems not much has changed :rolleyes:

The latest BASSA incarnation on the main thread spouts the same old nonsense such as this strike is all the fault of Willie & the Pilots etc, while ignoring factual posts that expose the flaws in their arguments.

Meanwhile, it seems that about half of the cabin crew members in BASSA seemingly don't have an opinion on the most important decision they have yet to make in their career.

One wonders what Unite will make of the results. Surely they will advise BASSA of the folly of further IA given the very real risk of dismissal for their members and the virtual certainty that further IA will be ineffective in any event. But will BASSA listen to reason? I very much doubt it. :ugh:

Still flying with BA - there's support!
 

I find it interesting that a number of posters have commented on here that they have long haul flights booked with BA, and so far, all have expressed the wish to fly on a strike day.

Does anyone who has a long haul BA flight booked want to fly on a non-stiking day? If yes, would you explain why?

PS - JSL, GG et al - note that my next l/h is with BA...........

Lessons from history
 

After lurking on this thread and the other one from the beginning, here’s my two-pennyworth, based on 35 years in BA, most of it with a BALPA position and part of the time with a management hat, though nearly all on the technical side.

BA’s CC always seemed to be the worst managed bit of the airline, and what’s happening now looks like the last act in a drama that started 50 years ago. Back in the 60s and 70s CC had a lot of ex-liner stewards in senior positions and the advent of the 747 provided the opportunity to push for increased status: “there are now so many cabin crew needed they have to have a full-time manager on board”. The position of Cabin Service DIRECTOR was created with this in mind, analogous to the Cruise Director on a large liner who is responsible for all the in-board entertainment, catering, entertainment etc. for thousands of people for weeks at a time. Such a person might even have an “office” under the stairs, but certainly wouldn't personally serve meals! CC management even tried to get this position of “Cabin Captain” recognised as second-in-command of the aircraft. Needless to say this created a reaction from flight ops and BALPA. It was firmly rebuffed but the trend was started whereby CC unions and management colluded to overstate the role of CC especially CSDs.

Many CC managers also seemed to love to micro-manage everyone below them, so like scheduling systems which give most crew little control over their own lives. The sickness rate in CC is well known to be grossly inflated by “social sickness”, which is simply individual CC taking back control of when they work and more importantly when they don’t. This causes instability and inflates the headcount with standbys, When standby is incorporated in lines of rostered flying, if the standby is used it can cause further instability by knocking out later trips. So you need more standby crew….

That same system was used for pilots in the 60s and early 70s, and the sickness rate improvement and overall satisfaction when a bidding system was introduced was remarkable. When CC strikes were called in the past and massive disruption resulted, it was nearly all due to “sickness” not striking. During one such period of unrest I made this point to a senior CC manager, who just said most CC weren’t “mature enough” to be trusted with a preferential bidding system. Of course the senior union reps and their supporters were happy with the existing system too, as they found ways to make things satisfactory for themselves, and over the years the CSD position in particular accrued significant benefits way above the reality of the responsibility involved.

Adding to this internal empire-building conspiracy between management and union reps was of course the increasing emphasis on the central importance of CC as the employees with the maximum exposure to passengers. While true up to a point, for some, in their own minds, it meant that they above all others ARE the airline. The most militant CC seem to be people who have largely been brought up in that culture of over-inflated self-esteem.

Meanwhile, newer generations of CC recruits have different ideas about what their role can and should be in the cut-throat economics of the 21st century. But they have been treated like badly-brought up children, often praised but given no responsibility. Confused by a continuous stream of half-truths from their “leaders” who mostly have a different agenda entirely, they don’t know what to think and so don’t even vote in potentially career-changing ballots.

They are not helped by the fact that many of the more militant ones seem not to be even fully devoted to the career they profess to be defending. I would question the right of a 50% worker’s vote to strike carrying equal weight with that of a full-time worker – after all they have a 50% less chance of being required to follow through by refusing to report on a strike day, and have less to lose than a full-timer if things go wrong (as they have in the current situation). As for using deliberate disruption of long-planned and hard earned trips of passengers as a weapon to re-institute the ability to get to the head of the queue while commuting to a part-time job from another continent using a non-contractual “perk” – words fail me!

The end result seems to be that BA has finally determined to get a grasp on the nettle that it needs to uproot. It grew largely a result of its own actions many years ago. It cannot afford to, and will not let it re-root. Hopefully a new and less inward-looking CC management team can find more truly representative union people to deal with in future. For BASSA, it looks like the game is over.

slast
 

I broadly support your post. Although from a different background to yours I shared roughly the same time with the "firm" One of your comments did strike a chord with me. Namely that part time CC whether 75%, 50% or lately on 30% rosters have the same weighting as full time staff when it comes to balloting. Many of these folk are frankly "hobby jobbers" with little commitment in my opinion to the fortunes of the airline going forward. Is it really democratic that part-time staff should have such sway in a ballot? Does any one out there no what proportion of the 12,000+ headcount are genuinely full time? After all a disproptionate ratio of part-timers is also a cost to the company. Think of the additional mandatory training, uniforms, admin etc... Employment legislation probably accounts for some of this but has BA been too generous in allowing CC to switch to reduced hours contracts?

I have seen plenty of references to BA being able to fly 100% of longhaul flights during the next strike (if there is one). Does anyone know about shorthaul? We are booked LHR to Bordeaux on August 14th (long-awaited family holiday, all the usual stuff) - does anyone fancy my chances of getting there if it falls on a strike day?:confused:

thank you
 

slast
thank you for that posting. I know that typing can be a pain - it was a long post. It was both informative and helpful
thank you

Its completely impossible for it to be a strike day. September at the earliest.

Travelling on strike days
 

Hi Octopussy,

I have now traveled short-haul 3 times on strike days - twice to Newcastle and once to Geneva. On all occasions I got there with no problems!! I did have to retain flexibility as there were definitely quite a few cancellations but BA allow you to change your flights if they happen to fall on strike days so you just change to a flight that IS running. The plus was that some people had obviously not traveled so the airport was a bit quieter and the staff were excellent (I assume that these are the ones who are keen to promote the company rather than destroy it!!) so the onboard service was great though the flights were pretty full!! Hope that reassures you,. I think it is important that we regular customers don't desert BA and allow BASSA and people like the guy now posting absolute rubbish on the other forum (Duggie) to even vaguely think that they have managed to put us off!!

slast You have summed up the situation perfectly. I spent 25 years flying as an Engineer Officer on B707s & B747s and observed the CC empire evolve as you describe. IMO the BASSA hardliners and all the CSDs should go, and the CC empire needs to be brought into the rest of BA. I believe WW has the balls to do it and the sooner the better for all of us, pax and ex crew.

I wish some CC and especially BASSA strike staff would visit here
 

Yes pay us a visit just to get a heads up, of what is out here in the real world

There are almost 3 Million unemployed

Companies can pick and choose like never before

If you wear the leppers badge ex BA CREW, not much chance, other airlines would not touch you with a barge pole (not that you would wish to work for poorer conditions off course)

So what does it leave

Well you can not take the desperate for cash to pay the mortgage route of crop picking as employers prefer the hard working willing to accept min wage immigrant workers

So that is out

Even bar work, employers would take ex barstaff as already aquainted with the life rather than new staff to the trade

OK desperation go to CONTACT CENTRE AS PHONE ADVISOR Sorry no

Although you just have to answer the phone and read scripts from a screen
there are so many out of work UNI GRADS 2.1 Who prefer it to shift work flipping burgers, that the usual pick of office staff are bottom of the heap

Ah HOSPITALITY manager, sorry there are dozens already looking for employment, the employer will take the ex Cruise Director to the CCD
From an airline (err lets make a decission here both inteligent but one manages twelve crew the other 2000 damn its hard)

Menial jobs, they will not take get up and go inteligent types because
Well they will get up and go (If they find something else BIG IF)

We all want the best in life, and to defend it, but in the present climes
CC you need to take a long hard look, and be thankful for what you have or even a reduction in it

"For exercise" "For exercise" "For exercise"
Next time you are off, Just pop into a JOB CENTRE and peruse what is on offer,, that is if you can stand the smell, the crush, and the desperate for work
HEY you will go back to BA and offer to work for free food only

The big benefits, live good for nothing, is only for people that have NEVER Worked
The ex worker has to suffer Two years of hardship and be down to NOTHING (including the loss of the home) before any reasonable help will appear

I am an erk in an office, now my peers are all UNI 2.1 GRADS, since 2008
It used to be two bit secretarys


I do not know WHY I posted this heads up because I much prefer the flights on strike days, and the airline would be better off without the militants

I posted it because I do not wish to see my fellow man in destitution:sad:

Jack McH

The PCCC should put their heads up and lead !!!!
 

In the past few posts, there have been calls for the founders of the PCCC to stand up and put their heads up above the parapets, lead from the front and provide an example to the rest of the CC.

In a situation, where from comments made, we are given to understand that there are possible criminal prosecutions and dismissals for intimidation, threats of damage to property, threats to individuals, families and children, threatening behaviour at strike meetings, and the type of intimidating behaviour as seen by the mob intrusion at the ACAS meeting, would you prospective leaders care to take on the position of being the nominated individuals at the forefront of the nascent PCCC organisation. This will allow those involved to continue to work, without for example worrying about their families, especially if on L/H for a 4 day trip, never mind working relationships within a crew including militants/strikers.

It is all very well using the military dictum of leading from the front, when you have a totally secured base to operate from, full security, organisation and backup, but these things take time to put into being, and until then everything gained to date can be easily destroyed. If you read back on the posting on both threads, the thing that crops up regularly is a troll or construct popping up with a demand to know who are the names behind the PCCC, to date nobody has provided any details and when you don't know who the enemy are, you can't try to destroy them - which I would guess has and is causing a lot of frustration in BASSA - long may it last!! :E

Some do, then the pack hunt starts if they post an opinion against the thread bias. Then they are reported and a thread ban is requested.

Balanced? (2 paragraphs)

PCCC
 

This is their opportunity....BASSA in disarray and hugely disillusioned at the turnout - half their members or so, didnt vote.

Maybe those half that didnt vote are looking for something to replace Bassa, but can't find it yet as PCCC is invisible to them, so abstain?

DH's memos contain some interesting pschology - his memos read like memo's to children.....right now there are 5000 children who are disullutioned by their father figure, but have no-one to replace him, so they abstain in the ballot as they don't know what else to do.....they are yours for the taking....

So, Hiflyer and the rest of the PCCC, you have a unique window of opportunity to give those children a new figurehead and gain the 5000 or so members you need to be recognised.

Get out from hiding - launch and grab those members - the time is now...

If you delay those 5000 will just abstain again in an IA ballot and secure their own fates...and you'll never get the % of members you need for recognition....

Litebulbs.
 

That is a bit disingenuous Litebulbs and, from what an outsider can gather, not the least bit like the BASSA and Crew Forums which apparently ban with ferocious speed and regularity.

To be honest, it has taken me a long time to get the hang of moderation on this forum - so different from my 'home' forum - but I have to say FlapsForty in particular has done and is doing a bang up job in a hostile environment. I don't think Watersidewonker, Fume Event, Ava (the Brit in Saffa) have been banned, even though some of their posts have been vanished. Some of mine have. :confused:They could, if they chose and were all different people, still come back to offer their point of view. But they don't. :rolleyes:

The problem is and always has been, all the way through the whole eighteen months of forumeering, those like the above do not care to refute arguments put to them by those on this forum. When confronted by verifiable evidence counter to their party line, the reaction is almost always silence or a snappy, but pointless or even incomprehensible one liner. I think I can say with reasonable confidence, I have never seen a carefully constructed, incontestably argued (and properly spelled :ugh:) outline of the BASSA case and its reasons for reacting so violently to a situation common to all BA employees.

Over the span of this matter, I have noticed how the tenor has changed in response to BASSA actions and proclamations. First, a genuine desire to correct the naff thinking and baseless spin. Then astonishment and confusion at the onset of strikes, followed shortly by growing irritation with BASSA's attitude and now, outright anger at BASSA's very real threat to thirty odd thousand non CC BA staff. And still the cabin crew militants appear to be completely incapable of understanding how others feel about them and the extent of the folly to which they have been led. :ugh: :ugh:

ROger.

I would like to thank slast VERY much indeed for the historical background. Another poster made reference to the importance of looking forward, and one must, but if you do not know the past, then you cannot improve on it.

It all makes sense of course, we know that the Captain was treated as was the Captain of an ocean liner with an absolute authority that was almost unassailable. That lesson was learnt and now it's called CRM.

It strikes me that, one of the reasons the management of CC got so slack is that, it was CC promoted to manage CC and the inevitable favouritism. Of course, there was then the income to be able to overlook the problems. Now the problems have outgrown all proportion and have to be fixed.

As I have said before, it's not nice and some people will lose out but, if realistic discussion had taken place from the outset? It could have been phased in. But human beings are hard wired to grab everything NOW and let go NEVER. Well, 'never' is just turning off the active and about to taxi up to the gate ... :ooh:

I'm about to book our annual trip to Hong Kong. I've been there five times now and flown with BA three times, Qantas once and Cathay once (last year). As a BA silver card holder ordinarily BA would be my default choice. But here's the text of the email I just sent to my wife's family:

Striking cabin crew: all over Britain, and BA's destinations worldwide, people are sending similar emails and avoiding booking with your airline, threatening its future and with it your jobs and those of thousands of your colleagues.

Regardless of what your union says, this is the reality. Do you care ?

In 20 years will you proudly be telling your children that you helped destroy an airline ?

13Alpha

I have not seen a pack hunt on the SLF forum, just on other side

SLF are only wanting to know what BASSA strike wishing staff want to gain
When in the present employment situation out there is desperate, it seems a bad time to rock the boat

As I said in my last post
If staff wanting to strike visit a Job Centre on their next off days, it may focus their mind set

Myself as a SLF in all honesty I only do about three return leisure flights a year only recently using BA and to be honest apart from the leather seats and extra inch Easy Jet were far superiour (as an economy pax)

All the Easy Jet staff were bi lingual (Polish and English) YOUNG and eager to please Never stopped for the whole of the flight All of them boss too

Served meals, then drinks, then DF, then tried to flog scratch cards. then Charity envelopes, issued out daily newspapers, start again with the meals, drinks, DF's
The leather seats on BA are much easier to wipe clean after accidents

It may come as a shock working non stop shoveling coal for six hours like staff in other employment, but the alternative is no employment at all

I can see why BA CC want to keep what they have who would not, but if cuts are not made then there will be no BA so no staff required

The present state of UK economy, means that if you find yourself unemployed then for at least five years you will be destitute
Home gone, and usually this breaks up the family

Arfur Scag tried the bassa technique, how many miners do you know now?
As for the leaders :-)
LORD John Prescot of Hull, a workers leader who would spit on the house of Lords
Head bowed in Ermin taking the queens shilling free grub for life

The working class can kiss my a$$ I have the foremans job at last :)

Jack McH

avoiding BA
 

I too am SLF who in the past always travelled with BA. But now I will not risk ruining my hard earned holiday because a few greedy senior cc seem to care about nobody but themselves. I have booked with a rival airline and even if BA survive this farce it will be a very long time before I will be confident enough to use them again. Another thing that puts me off is the idea that my safety in an emergency is in the hands of someone who flew long haul to work!

How will the issue of who is and who is not a member of the union ( Unite ) be resolved? Based on posting on this board many CC who have resigned from Unite are still receiving ballots to vote as if they are members. How many CC are there and how many are members of Unite? Does anybody actually know the answer the question?

From Duncan's diatribe on that other forum:
From a dictionary:
A distasteful image indeed.

I also mod the CC forum and 'that' thread - None of the above names were permanently banned (apart from the odd day here and there) - They simply chose not to post further. In several cases, they (and others) delete their own posts - to other users this appears to be as a result of mod activity when fact it isn't.

This thread/forum has deliberately been given greater tolerance and latitude in the strictness of moderation than the CC thread, after agreement with all of the CC Forum mods - partly in recognition of the posting restrictions on the CC thread. FYI - this thread is read by a large number of people, including CC than you may be aware of.

Who in the TU movement do they think is waiting with bated breath? 99% of union members have troubles of their own and really couldn't care less about the BASSA/BA fiasco.

Poor Duncan
 

A week or so ago, I was watching my local news on TV when a story came on about Southampton Football Club. Being a brummie 'blue nose' fan I was only mildly interested but I perked up when a Southampton Football Club 'historian' was interviewed. As I was reading my newspaper at the time I did not see the chaps name but I am almost 100% sure it was DH.

Maybe a new career beckons?

Posted this on the other thread before realising I was not allowed - so posting it here as well. p.s. mods - I did work for BA for 17 years

"Poor Duncan"

Poor sap more like! The penny appears to have dropped. It would seem that he and his chosen few have brow beaten successive CEO's at BA and got away with murder. Now he has come up against a CEO who knows what he is about and sacked him because he excused himself from work while 'the firm' wanted him flying - must have been in his contract! Then he cries wolf and the law bites his bum.

A salutory lesson for his mates and BASSA. Their teeth are being pulled one by one and with such a lousy result how can Unite support them - and him? This latest ballot may well be the end of BASSA. How PCCC takes their place is a matter of some urgency I would have thought. WW I feel will welcome the change

Good luck to all the CC. You are best out of BASSA and since Holley is still taking his ridiculous rake-off from their subs, LM too I shouldn't wonder. Perhaps it is now time to resign and cut DH and others from their income from your subs.

I am a customer of BA._ I have never worked for any airline._ I own a few shares in BA but not enough to warp my judgement._ We are seeing history being made._ Some years ago the current industrial relations laws were altered by those who sat in the House of Commons and discussed this, presumably in committee._ The result of their efforts are the current laws._ The elected members of Parliament had as their guide the history and record of industrial disputes._ But it would not help their discussions that there would be conflicting histories and mismatched records of each of the past industrial disputes._ The MPs then framed the present laws.

This BA/Unite conflict has tested the limits._ It has probably tested the limits much more robustly than any of those MPs could have envisaged._ Several actions in this conflict have been controversial._ There are those who will say that this conflict demonstrates that the laws are biased against Unions, others will say the laws are biased in favour of Unions, others will say the laws are ok._ Nevertheless, history has been made and this historical episode is not over._ How terrible for those individuals who have had their finances or self-esteem bruised.

From an understanding of how industrial action can be allowed to happen in a democratic society - and what bounds and controls are fair or unfair, this conflict will go down in history as a text-book example.

Just to explain...
 

Dear Tight Slot,
I use the soubriquet "that other forum" as an allusion. In The House of Commons, The House of Lords is always referred to as "that other place." Seems apt, somehow.

I also think that the PPRuNe Mods do a great job, under sometimes very trying conditions. Hat doffed (showing my balding pate!)

Hotel Mode and Mocamps

Many thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

One wonders..............
 

One of the lines allegedly written by the bassa branch sec is as follows....

" We simply cannot have BA dictating to us how and when our important union work should be done."

Wow!!
Clearly this individual has never worked in the real world. I've worked in heavy industry, fmcg, the service sector (transportation) and in Aviation. In all of those companies, (bar one) there was heavy unionisation. In every company, a representative had to obtain permission from the company to leave their place of work to do "union business". No means "NO".

The union members pay their money to be represented by Full Time Officials, employed by the Union. They are called in when the local rep.can't deal with an issue. In my experience, it has never been the job of an employee/rep. to decide not to work, but to do Union business.

If the expressed view of this branch sec. is the view of the bassa reps, then I hate to think what they'll do when they start working for a company in the real world.
If the BA managers in the past have allowed/condoned/encouraged this behaviour, then shame on them.

A Question
 

A number of posts here and in/on that other place have referred to the branch sec of bassa personally receiving 3% of all payments made by BA CC to their TU.

Can anyone verify this, or is it just rumour?

it does....

CAC - Schedule A1 (Part I)

or

Statutory derecognition of a trade union - derecognition ballots | Flexible Support for Business Wales

I know it's Wales, but the law is the same and the Welsh web page is easier to find things in...!

From that other forum, it transpires the Duncan is the part-time historian for Southampton Football Club. Strangely enough, it seems that there is no love lost between DH and the Chairman of the Club, Rupert Lowe. The quote below is taken from an open letter written By DH to Southampton FC in 2006:
There seems to be a common thread here of locking horns with authority. Was DH bullied at school? I think we should be told.

Any individual can request a thread ban, much as I can request to be a natural blonde. A request matters little if it is unreasonable.

I don't believe any reasonable individual can have too much objection to the moderation of this site. Many of us, myself included, have been sent to the corner at one time or another to rethink our approach. However, my observation is that great patience is taken by the moderators to apply an even hand and obvious effort is made to stay engaged with this forum so that SLF can continue to exchange ideas, information and observations. Without appropriate moderation I doubt the forum decorum would stay at a level that many of us would wish to continue to engage in.

Yes, it is unfortunate that we have to bring our own cocktails and sometimes I do wish they would serve some nice warm appetizers (and I'm not even going to bring up the rather hurtful dismissal of my suggested strike questions. While I will admit that after two VT's I will find some things amusing when in the morning I may go "What was I thinking?", but it still hurt :sad: and I'm seeking counseling to provide me with the ability to move on.)

All in all I think that rather than take this forum for granted we should rather be saying "Thank you" to the moderators from time to time.

If they ever tire of the extra time it takes to oversee this forum along with their other duties and simply close the thread I'm not aware of one other place I could go that would provide the sort of right-middle-left views, information and lively exchange that is received here.

So, Moderators..."Thank you"

I wonder what has happened to Southampton FC since then.

thank you paxboy.....
I wonder if any of the other readers of this thread who agree and are qualified would care to copy some of it into the "other thread" - much as I would like to, I can't comment there myself, not being a current employee now.......

DH v Rupert Lowe
 

A bit off thread but a tenuous link: Rupert Lowe was voted off the board a few years back, altho' I cant see DH's contribution being anything to do with the Chairman's removal.

Baggers, Non-Union members didnt vote as such, they simply signed in acceptance of the terms being offered. As I understand it (happy to be corrected) for them, thats that, job done.

Certainly my partner hopes thats the case, she's had more than enough and just wants to go to work and do a decent job, the sooner BASSA allow her the better, is her view.