LHR Security
 

Classic one this morning.

My laptop bag was pulled for manual inspection after X-ray.

After being kept waiting for about 10 mins, the security person approached me with the bag and gave me a bit of lecture (not unkindly, but deffo a lecture) about the need to remove my laptop from my bag before putting it throught the scanner.

So I asked him, "do you mean this laptop?" lifting the notebook in my hand up to eye level.

"But you have removed it already", he says. "Yes", .

"But she said she saw a laptop on the screen."

I decided not to lecture him on the perils of pre-expectations and just smiled, which seemed the best response under the circumstances. Hopefully the embarrasment he obviously felt will have taught him a lesson about checking out the facts before lecturing.

On my way I went.

This is another piece of evidence I have seen at first hand that suggests these people are not on top of their game.

About 2 years ago Dublin appeared to be doing Laptops Out but Heathrow was not.

As I was doing the route once a week or more then, one morning I went out through Heathrow and got Substantial Bollocking #1 for "wasting people's time" as I was taking my laptop out of its bag. It was snatched from me when half out and rammed back in again.

At Dublin that evening on the return, as I waited to enquire if they were to be in or out, I received Substantial Bollocking #2 for not having it out already "when you must know" .......

WHBM,

Spot on! That is exactly the stress factor of security for a traveller certainly in the UK or USA and I don't think non-travellers really comprehend the issue.
There is no standardisation. I decided a while ago that the way to deal with it all is a deep breath and just remove coats, shoes, watch, belt, wallet, computer, keys, liquids, phones, electronic items..and walk calmly through.
If you screwed up, you were bawled out in front of everyone but unpleasant as this was, it was your fault. However, now some airports let you wear coats, some allow you to keep shoes on, some say "Don't take out your computer", some "Don't separate your liquids", some "Do separate your liquids"..etc...and if you get it wrong..."Didn't you see the messages?", "Didn't you look at the screen?"..it's embarassing and that's when anger flares as otherwise intelligent people are humiliated because of what they view as an inconsistant process.
I feel better now..:)

One theory states that the TSA is merely a device to prepare US citizens to a society where citizens are ordered around by the government... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I shall repeat (briefly) another inconsistency in UK airports - the sensitivity of metal detecting arches. I could leave LTN and be fine but returning through IOM (Isle of Man) wearing the identical garments {duly washed by my mother, I promise!] then the alarm would sound. In the days before regular shoes off instructions, at LTN I could stroll through and at IOM I always got a pat down.

After this happened a couple of times, I commented to the IOM staff that their unit must be set to detect a lower level of metal (lacing eyes on the type of boots I habitually wear) and they declared on more than one occasion that, "All metal arches in the UK are set to the same levels. Over the course of ten years I can tell you - No.

I go through the same arch, normally many times a day at LHR and with the same garments and sometimes it beeps and sometimes not with no apparent reason. It may not be the different machines

WHBM #2
 

Dublin is a quirky little classic in its own little world. I don't know if you've visited recently, but we have our own little rule here: all umbrellas must be removed for separate screening. They must be removed from hand luggage/briefcases etc. Normally the security people open them as well. I have no idea what this is all about, but hey it's all good fun. My theory is that it's a "weirdo test", along the lines that anyone not carrying an umbrella in Ireland is definitely a strange individual.

They are set to beep on random occasions so that random searches can be carried out.

At T4 a few months ago, one of them asked me this.

I pointed out the message 3 feet away, telling me to do what I had done, which he took exception to.

Quick as a flash, he replied that it was intended for the next queue.

When I pointed out that it was blank on the other side and the text was pointing at my queue, he started to get huffy and talk about 'being difficult.'

Thick as two short planks, some of these people.

Bloody hell I hope they aren't set to randomly beep!

So I can walk through with loads of metal and stand the chance of a 'random' beep - what if the random beep misses me and my metal??! :ugh::hmm::}

No if you have metal or whatever detected it will go beep, it will also beep on random occasions when no metal is detected.:sad:

As far as sensitivity of metal detectors goes, most UK airports seem to be highly tuned such that they are picking up 'metal' when none is present. Its noticable that at Singapore the staff don't want you to take your belts off (I know its a DfT thing here) and the metal detectors weren't set off when I went through with my belt on.

Oh the flip side, I've passed through LHR on numerous occassions recently for non-domestic flights with my Gillette Mach 3 in my hand luggage and haven't been pulled once.

Happy days...

The man at Frankfurt was quite huffy on Wednesday when told my belt could not be removed as it is permanently attached to the trousers...... They don't always ask at Heathrow, but they get upset, too, when told that. I do have a special pair of trousers that I wear for travelling - I object to having the trousers round my ankles in public, and I've lost a lot of weight this year.

yep nothing changes...

London City last month I asked politely at beginning of unloading point for security scanner 'do you need my laptop out? - to be answered gruffly and rudely 'it is always laptops out...' as though as I was some sort of moron - I then replied that no actually it isnt at London Heathrow and some other UK airports and gave him a short but sharp lecture on how DETR security procedures give allowances for airports clearly unlike London City who a) have adequate scanning equipment and b) have attained a higher level of security alertness for both staff, training and equipment (unlike them)' - the guy and his supervisor just gauped and didnt talk to me again...whilst the rest of the line of pax visibly started giggling (and I got a well done from several of them...one businessman even bought me a coffee)

Gatwick South - shoes off line (apparently) - except no actual signage to that effect - gruff women at scanner 'take your shoes off' - my reply 'ok but no one told me that...' - the reply 'there is a sign' - oh no there isnt it, go and find it then...reluctant acceptance that yes as I had stated there was no sign whatsover directing that line to take shoes off prior to scanner and a sort of mumbled apology...

I go thru ZRH often and I find their security very tight and i always get pulled up for the nails in my shoes...however they are it seems in my opinion polite courteous and apologetic when asking u to take your shoes off for another scan...'pls sir...because....thank you sir for your co-operation...sorry for delaying you'

It is not just the implementation of the security but the actual 'customer service' aspect which all too often seem so lacing and is actually what winds me up the most...security please note...be nice to me and I'll be nice and relaxed with you ;)

When you look at security scans from the point of view of a Process Quality Manager there are two main points:
1. Effectiveness of the scan (what fraction of contraband is found)
2. Efficiency of the scan (how many people/hour)
And then there is the customer aspect:
3. How does the customer perceive it

Reliable data on effectiveness is hard to get, but leaked reports from random "red team" testing are not so good. :uhoh:, sometimes :eek:.

For efficiency you need a good process (plus proper equipment and accomodation.) In nearly all airports passengers have to perform some actions as part of the process. (Put their bag on a conveyor belt, walk through a detector...) Passengers have not been trained for this, so you need to think about properly instructing them.
As the security staff needs cooperation from the passengers, it pays off spending some time to train the staff in the psychological aspect of getting cooperation. Friendliness helps :), clarity in instructions is even more important.

If an airport has worked on efficiency, they already did a lot to improve customer perception, we all want to get through security as quickly as possible.

I've said it before...someone at BAA needs to go to Narita and see how it's done there.
They start by apologising for the inconvenience and then request the support of the passenger in the process. Unfailingly polite and helpful, the line teams are concentrated on the task, they don't make inappropriate comments to passengers or each other and they are ready to assist people with bags, coats etc.
It's the one part of the world where I don't feel stressed or upset when arriving or leaving.
The security process can be done properly and professionally.

If your shoes are of the quality to have nails, then it's not the nails, they are too small to cause a beep. Quality shoes also have a formed steel plate from the heel to the toe. I didn't believe it either until a scanner man showed me why my Church's were beeping. FAA Tech Centre, scanner on trial. Clear as day.

Boss Raptor :

It is clear that you and I, and doubtless a number of others, have scope to start a Bollocked for Asking what Today's Laptop Procedure is Club. The BATLPC members could then exchange information on the inconsistency of procedures done by each airport, with points for every new undocumented procedure reported.

I would suggest that as part of this we could have a Club Tie, but fear the next retaliation from the DfT would then be a Ties Off enhancement to the security procedures.

I an quite sure that every morning when they put their materials on , they made a check and ajust sensibility
So you can go in the same channel on 2 diferents days wearing the same thing and day 1 it's OK day 2 you have to be search
Last time I go through security in CDG I have forgot my bluetooth hearing in my pocket and the system have not detectet... but I have to remove my shoes !!!!!!!
wonderful world ....

thank you Forget on the shoe nails issue - you are (and i didnt doubt) quite correct ZRH security actually explained this to me and i have to admit I had no idea that my shoes had that heel to toe metal strip...they knew and were very knowledgeable about it in a constructive 'dont worry we think we know what it is' sort of way...like you that was a new one on me...the other less educated airports are convinced and quite happy it is the three nails which constitute new soles with the nails being on the toes ;) although it has only ever in 8 years been picked up by a scanner at one other airport and I forget which that was

Addendum - as above comments totally agree; security staff - direct me what to do, give me a tray, tell me what you want...and all will be well...at Prague for example they regularly stuff the pile of trays to the entrance side wall of the scanner area (not in obvious walk/flow/sight line from entrance to scanner belt/line) and you are supposed to know where just out of eye shot they have put them so get one yourself, take to scanner etc. ...and then get arsey when you shrug your shoulders and say so where are the trays (idiot!)?

WHBM...luv the idea but agree the consequence ;)

I quite often carry a short blade (4cm) through x-ray machines and, since it has never been questioned, I must presume that:

1. They do not see it
2. They see it and accurate calculate that it is less than the legal limit (it is)
3. The manufacture of the item disguises the blade.

I am not worried that others may carry small, but lethal, items through security for, as I have oft said, a 3Kg lap top and a (glass) litre bottle of spirits when broken, provide far superior weapons that the airline have encouraged me to bring my laptop and will then bring the glass bottle on board for me and serve to my seat.

PaxBoy

Be careful, you'll have that big girl LowCostDolly along stamping her feet and shouting that you are a very bad boy for saying such things :}

You seem quite proud of the fact that you repeatedly, and illegally, smuggle a lethal weapon onto an aircraft.

Do you realise one can strangle another with ones bare hands?
Or hit and kick till the other is dead?

So let's dismember all passengers upon boarding :eek:

Let's accept that there is a tiny tiny risk that one runs into a madman... I appreciate it when organized armed criminals are kept off the plane, before metal detectors were common there were too many hijackings to my taste. When there is one unruly passenger, there are enough "sane" people on board to subdue him, as long as he does not carry incapacitating arms.

PAXboy: My estimate is that small knives get past screening in more than 50% of the cases. Experienced "red team" security testers routinely claim getting more than 50% of their guns through the check. :(

Of course I do.

But smuggling a blade onto an aircraft is an offence, and PAXBoy appears to be very pleased with himself that he does it deliberately and repeatedly.

Please will you quote a definitive reference for that statement.

To show the lunacy of security, I had my 1.8m Kensington cable taken by security and shipped with the checked in baggage and yet was allowed to take a 1.8m 13amp 3 core mains cable on board.

I think either would be equally effective for use as a garotte and the mains lead probably easier to use as it is more flexible, whilst very strong.

Although, as I have not had any thugee training, I can't be sure.

I also once had a 'security' person try to confiscate a roll of masking tape, because I might use it to tie up the crew.... you really couldn't make it up, could you?

That was another 'please get your supervisor' day and unsurprisingly I departed with my low strength tape.

Whilst I will be among the first to critisise the quality of training of security staff in most UK airports, I do not blame the staff. I blame the management and their methods. Whatever else, we rely on these poorly paid and poorly trained people to look out for us. As it happens, I am very aware of the type of checking of security operators that takes place at BAA airports in the UK and would not normally comment. However, your claim is completely incorrect and could cause concern to regular travellers. Every day, somewhere in the BAA "empire", attempts are made to breach security through entry points of airports as part of ongoing training. I've never heard of a "red team" but the private agencies who carry out these exercises do not report figures like the one mentioned. Also, it's not called a "gun".

Sorry, I should have mentioned that these were US results.

It is very well possible that UK screeners achieve better results.
OTOH, as long as results of the tests remain secret, we'll never know how good a job those security checkers do.

Having experienced T5 last week for the first time, I am amazed that this showplace of the BA empire seems to be bursting at the seams with people, queues and frustration. If this effort is struggling now to cope with the throughput of passengers, what is it going to be like in three, four or five years?

Incidentally, having 90 minutes to change terminals to catch my connection, I missed it.:ugh:

Rusland 17Ouch, allow me to politely set the record straight.

1. I am not 'proud' or anything else - it's just a fact. The first time it happened was by accident as I was with hand baggage only, the device was in my pocket and got placed into the tray. No comment came. The return journey meant, perforce, I had the same item with me, again no comment. This has happened on several other occasions when I have taken it with me. Sometimes I leave it in the car.
2. I checked the regulations about blades and, insofar as I recall from less than a year ago, the limit was 5 cm and I carefully measured the device at it's maximum and found that it was not illegal.
3. So, I am not proud, it is legal and I do not smuggle it as it goes in the x-ray tray. Lethal? As I point out, all I need is welcomed on board.
4. Why do I post this? Just to show the absurdity of it all.
5. Does that mean I think there should be no screening? No, of course not.

*Apparently the floor surface that the archway is fitted to can also make a difference. When I go through a certain check point that is on the ground floor, the archway only ever beeps for me as one of the "random" beeps as it fitted on a solid concrete floor.

The same type of archway on the first floor, sometimes gives out a normal beep when I go through wearing exactly the same things. (there is a slight difference in the tone of beep).

I enquired with the BAA about it, and they told me it is because the floor surface is not a solid as the one downstairs and the slight movement of the floor as someone is walking through the machine can set it off. Also if someone else is standing too close to the machine as you go through, this too sets it off.

With regard to the sensitivity mentioned earlier, the archways have recently been upgraded at LHR to ones that are much more sensitive, in line with European regulations.

The old ones, I could come through with coins, keys, belt, and watch on me and it wouldn't go off, the new ones I have to remove everything except the watch - that never sets it off for some reason, depsite having a fairly hefty stainless steel strap !!. One time I accidently left 1- yes 1, 1p coin in my pocket and that set it off !!.

*I say apparently as all this was told to me by various security staff - It's amazing what you can find out from security if you engage them in pleasant conversation whilst being "fondled".

:ok:

Rusland 17 excellent point re the offence and yes it is an offence of taking knives on board a flight which F3G has asked you to provide "definitive evidence" of. I note you have not replied presumably because you ignored the post?

F3G is on my ignore list but as I'm a newbie to PPrune I didn't realise you had to log in to make the list active therefore reading the latest F3G posts.....my mistake because i actually read the challenge laid down by someone who thinks they are above the law because they fly frequently and in first or premium at that!! Again frequently shoved down everyones throat but the Uk rules are just the same however much money you wish/have to spend on class!!

The amount of websites F3G has to choose from on this subject are in the thousands....just try Google and type in "carrying knives on a plane". That will also bring up the official goverment website on the legalities of carrying a knife in public as well. Think F3G you will find it's illegal :=

That I'm sure won't be enough for the likes of someone who clearly thinks they can interpret the law to suit themselves so maybe the "definitive evidence" will come from their own post !!

#65 on the Gatwick North thread is made by F3G himself. It makes reference to his friend being prosecuted for presenting a knife at security....apparently! His friend/colleague or whatever aquaintance then obtained a criminal record and community service.....according to F3G.

Now I'm no expert here but I think the Police, Crown Prosecution Service, and the courts do not have time to waste on people who are doing nothing illegal.

BTW F3G not "stamping my foot" just stating the blindingly bloody obvious.....it's illegal to take a knife on board a flight in the UK!! Clearly there are people here who can't?won't grasp that. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Que the hissey fits now :eek:

Very dramatic...but wrong.

I don't think either F3G or Paxboy suggested they illegally took knives onto aircraft or supported anyone doing so..that is a very serious accusation to make. Paxboy said he puts his through the x-ray machine, which is standard security. One therefore presumes that his blade, whether on a knife or otherwise, meets the requirements and is less than 6cm which is perfectly legal.

Realising this could be a contentious point, I have added the relevant passage from the government website..my highlight.:
Pointed/edged weapons and sharp objects

The following is not allowed in your hand baggage.

Including but not limited to:

axes and hatchets
arrows and darts
crampons
harpoons and spears
ice axes and ice picks
ice skates
lockable or flick knives with blades of any length
knives, including ceremonial knives, with blades of more than 6cm, made of metal or any other material strong enough to be used as a potential weapon
meat cleavers
machetes
open razors and blades (excluding safety or disposable razors with blades enclosed in cartridge)
sabres, swords and swordsticks
scalpels
scissors with blades more than 3cm in length
ski and walking/hiking poles
throwing stars
tradesman's tools that have the potential to be used as a pointed or edged weapons, including drills and drill bits, box cutters, utility knives, all saws, screwdrivers, crowbars, hammers, pliers, wrenches/spanners, blow torches

I'm going to take the unusual step of stepping in between lowcostdolly and Final 3 Greens. Since F3G has not replied yet, he must be away on biz but I would like to put my point of view on this and state that I have never met F3G and only know him through this forum, so he might well stamp on me too!
LCD Actually, as I read F3G, he LOVES the rules and the greatest irritation he displays is for those that do not meet the published rules and procedures of their company.

None of us in here are saying that. What we are saying is what strake has kindly looked up the detail for us:
If you have a knife but it's blade is less than 6cm - then it's legal.

On one occasion, a UK X-ray machine found a pair of side cutters that I had not seen in months, they had got caught in a fold of fabric in the lining of my shoulder bag. When they emerged was I angry? Did I try to tell them that they were wrong? I thanked them for finding it and, as I had the time, withdrew from the queue - went and got a suitable envelope, posted them to myself and rejoined the queue as they were a very good pair of cutters! On another occasion, I had left something more valuable in the bag, as I had changed bags at the last minute and not checked the pockets. I had no time to spare and so they threw away a very useful combination tool and I cursed myself - not them. (although I silently cursed the govt idiots who made the pointless regs)

Please accept that, whilst I'm an old lag in the forum, I am always ready to sit down and be corrected. Yes I know that F3G can be a bit strong sometimes and that's the nature of an open forum BUT he works in the commercial aviation field and knows of what he speaks. Does he seem like a snob for mentioning that he travels in C and F? As I read it, he states so when it is germane to the topic and the level of service to be expected. If I stay at a Premier Inn (UK motel chain of good medium value and cleanliness) I would expect differently to when I stay in a Hyatt or Intercon. If I reported on the meal and room service, I would state which hotel it was so as to put my observations in context.

Hello Dolly,
Well Hello, Dolly,
It’s a laugh to read another post from you.
You’ve got it wrong Dolly.
Yes again, Dolly,
You’re still crowin’, you’re still blowin
But your facts are gone.
We feel the board swayin’
From the tongue flayin’
As you tell us what we all already know, so…
Give us all a bleedin’ break Dolly,
Get back on your low cost crate, Dolly
Dolly take your duty free,
Keep your pricey Coffee ‘n Tea,
Dolly jus’ for them an’ me, please fly awaaaayyyyy…….

Do they carry scalpels in the aircraft First Aid kit?

Interestingly, you can carry in hand baggage more than 100mL of liquid if it is a labelled prescribed medicine, and similarly, a hypodermic syringe and needles for the same reason.

I presume sewing needles under 5cm long are OK?

clareprop

That is brilliant :D:D:D:D:D:D

PAXboy

Not at all, you present a fair summary.

lowcostdolly,

I can't work out if you are cunningly disengenuous ie a troll, or if you are a little bit slow, which of course, we all can be from time to time.

A complete fabrication. No one has said that. It has been shown (in my post) that knives and blades of a certain length are allowed on board. Where does anyone say they can take "anything" through security?

For whatever reason, you came on here a couple of months ago and set your stall up to be the "CC spokesperson" to passengers, requiring us to read long, long dissertations on subjects that most of us have been experiencing for twenty or thirty years. That's fine, we can all learn something new but you need to be sure about your "facts" and your track record is a little wanting in this regard.