Oversize passengers - neighbours rights?
 

We have all been inconvenienced (occasionally overwhelmed!) by oversize passengers in a neighbouring seat but what are my rights to have my 'space' free of such intrusion? On such occasions I have complained (mildly) to cabin staff and have received sympathy but no relief. Am I entitled to claim some degree of refund if my seat space has been partly occupied by someone else's mass? I assume that my ticket entitles me to an unshared seat. I would also be interested as to the cabin crew's take on this.

I'm in 12A, Mr and Mrs. Piggy have just squeezed themselves into 12B and 12C respectively, probably weighing in at a collective 250 kgs against my 70 kgs. We're 0 minutes into a 12 hour flight and I'm squashed against the side of the aircraft, with large flabby parts of Mrs. Piggy unpleasantly close to my eyes and mouth.

It's not their fault, and there's nothing I can say to them to make them feel better, or worse, about the predicament which is causing them as much discomfort and embarassment as it is me.

I call a FA and explain as non-confrontationally as possible that all three of us are in discomfort and at some degree of risk in the event of an emergency requiring evacuation, after all that's the line they use when they tell us SLF that we can't have anything on the floor in front of us.

The cabin is full so there is nowhere for me, or them, to move. So I ask for a seat in the front. A couple of times this has worked, but not within the last 5 years or so.

The most frequent response is, as stated, sympathy but no relief. I always write to the airline, on the basis that oversize passengers should be charged more and given bigger seats. Most replies, and I have a number of them, say something along the lines of 'it is being looked into but current conditions within the industry mean that this is unlikely to be implemented in the near future'. And of course, why don't I upgrade to business/premium/first. Why should I? I'm not the fat one.

I know this is a never ending an insoluble debate. Some people are fat bastards because they're greedy and lazy. Others can do nothing about it, it's genetic or medical.

Any other thoughts?

Apart from being a good line to affect a seat change, it is also a chilling reality. Your egress would be seriously inhibited if not impossible. What liability would the airline if that situation occured and could be proved.

Mind you, the way that we SLF are packed into aircraft these days, I cannot beleive that any evacuation could be effected in a timely or orderly fashion, despite the so called required standards.

Just to lever oneself out a seat these days requires a practised skill.

Just ask to sit between them, your chances of surviving any mishaps would be exponentially increased.

Just think of them as your own personal airbags.

You see, every cloud has a silver lining. And should that silver lining be another aircraft, when you are removed from the wreckage, you will be safely cocooned in 500lbs of soft, blubbery, fat :ok:

Coyote, ingenious! We need more people like you who can see the solutions and not just the problems. I bet you can make a business class meal out of nothing but dry stores and a garnish.

Wait till the cabin staff close all doors. Then get up and go to talk to a FA. They will want you seated as soon as possible, they'd hate to delay the flight. So, they will probably seat you up front.

There are some airlines who seemingly already do.

Buy a ticket up front.

I have read/discussed this issue many a time,& on other sites as well.
Pay for the pointy end on long haul,& legroom with 2 seats together shorthaul.Simple !!
It takes me months to save up for this,but arriving at destination,not feeling like i've been "dug up " is priceless.
Apart from one bad secto in J over the years...it's been worth every penny for every sector we have flown.
Airlines like to fit as many seats into the cabin as posssible these days,to be cost effective obviously.
I often see comments that Monarch airline have such small seat pitches,(widthwise too).
My flight to Ace next july is already booked & paid for,with good seats allocated at extra cost to ourselves, i've taken the initiative to make the flight as comfortable as possible.
My view i'm afraid is to cough up for the comfort !!

All this "coughing up" crap sparks of elitism.

Pay the money, pay the money, pay the chuffin money.

It is not everyone who has the luxury of choice.

Most of us have no option but to travel the increasingly downwardly spiraling Cattle Class :ugh:

I know SouthWest call these people "Passengers of Size" and make them buy 2 seats

Paying extra for extra comfort is a choice that should be made by the passenger at his volition, not forced upon him in order to prevent having to share his seat with an oversized passenger.

If I pay for an economy class seat I am entitled to sole occupancy of it. In any case, on a lot of shorthaul flights there is no choice even for those willing to pay for it.

Yeah, they all bark the same old mantra. "it was cheap, it was cheap, it was cheap, what do you expect"


Acceptability, is my stock answer :ugh:

If you read my post el grifo...you will see that i said it takes me months to save up.
Also living in lanzarote,you should already be aware that it is mainly charter flights that land.
2 seats by themselves,at a princely extra cost of £60 shorthaul...hardly luxury :)
It's a fact that there are many passengers that fly,who aren't exactly on the lean side.
If it means me waiting longer till i can afford to book & fly...then so be it.
have had too many flights from hell to continue just getting on & boarding with check-in agents choice.

I have been amused by some of the comments resulting from my initial post but disappointed by those whose solution is simply to buy a more expensive ticket. Why the hell should I? Surely my ticket entitles me to my own space however small, so I come back to my original question which basically is, what are my rights?

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You are right that once the doors are closed, we want people sat as quickly as possible, but at this time, we also don't want passengers changing seats, along with all their hand luggage etc. The amount of time between the doors closing and push back can be less than a minute and we have very little time to get everything done. There's also a good chance that most crew will be well aware of why you have chosen this moment to ask. And that will ensure you stay exactly where you are.

If the situation is truely unbearable, then I would suggest that your best bet is to either wait until after take off or to try to speak to the senior crew member whilst boarding is still in progress. If you explain your situation discreetly and without any dramatics, you will be more likely to get a sympathetic response. Picking a time when the crew are at their busiest is not a good idea.

Ironically, I actually had this type of situation today. A roundish gent and his wife were unfortunate enough to be sat next to one of the nastiest peices of work I've ever had the misfortune to meet. And this precious little butterfly didn't see the need to get up to speak to us. In front of everyone and in a very loud voice, she snapped, "I'm not sitting next to him! He's too fat! Get me another seat..." The gentleman in question was undoubtedly rotund, but certainly not big enough to affect her in any way. Upgrades were indeed made. But neither of them were her. And it was worth it, just to see the look on her face! :E

Nipva,

In response to your question, I'd be amazed if any airline would give you a refund for another passenger encroaching on your space. To be fair, why should they? It's not really the airlines fault, after all. The only answer would be to insist passengers of a certain size buy two seats and I don't know where they would stand on this, with regards to the discrimination act. I know this came up fairly recently in a rather heated thread, but can't remember what the conclusion, if any, was. I should imagine the thread is still around somewhere though, if you wanted to search for it.

Jsl

I don't agree with you, El Grifo.

It is a matter of paying for the service that you wish to receive.

Buying C should mean that you have a guarantee of more space, but it comes at a price differential.

Buying Y means you will likely have less space, but that is the choice you make.

As to whether the airlines are liable, I don't know.

Although the contract probably does not even specify what an economy seat is, there is a thing called 'implied terms and conditions of contract' that may cover this.

I'm not a lawyer though, so don't have an opinion whether it does.

Bravo to Southwest Airlines for having a fair policy (buy two seats, get refunded for one if the flight is not full.)

One can also buy two seats as a 'person of non size', as I do with Ryanair if using them. As there is no premium class, having guaranteed space is worth every cent and makes a 3 hour flight much more comfortable.

Its not just Southwest but also a number of other US airlines who do it as well.

Attenpts to sue have failed as being Fat isn't regarded as a disability and Airlines have a duty to protect the safety of other passengers as well.

Can these passengers be evacuated safely in an emergency without blocking other passengers route to safety is a valid arguement.

IMHO You pay for a seat and thats it, this applies to the 70kg person as much as the 130kg person, they making inroads on your means they getting more than they paid for. Let them pay the extra.

How do you ensure that no-one tries to occupy the seat next to you? Do the cabin crew indicate the seat in some way, or is it left to the passenger to tell his fellow travellers that the seat is reserved?

What happens if you board the plane and can't find two seats together? Do the cabin crew make someone move to make space for you? What if the only empty seats are alongside families or couples? Or speedy boarders who have paid extra to get the seat they want?

Reserving two seats would obviously work well on an airline that offers assigned seating, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster.

A bit of both, but it's no problem. Placing your hand luggage on it will deter all but the most persistent and the crew will help them find another seat, if they need one.

The crew will find you two seats together.

It is not a recipe for disaster, it works fine.

All getting a bit "animalistic" now is it not ?

Guess that's why they call it "cattle class" :ugh:

How about the agents asking passengers of size if they would like to super size their seat (subject to availability). Discounted way of up selling vacant J class at the time of departure. Win win situation for all I think???

The immediate problem I can see is that it imposes a burden of judgement on the check in agent, and exposes them to accusations from the PC nutters of : "Why are you asking me and not that person over there?"

Maybe passengers should go through a measuring box, like hand baggage, to see if they would fit into a normal sized seat. Those who fail would be charged extra and checked as hold baggage or refused passage. Now there's an idea!

If you are suggesting selling J class seats for a discount, then it would not seem like a win win for those who had paid the asking price and now have the experience of seeing someone get the same service for less.

So, what happens if I absolutely refuse to sit in my assigned seat which is partially occupied by a person of size? I stand in the aisle, ask for another economy seat, and barring that, a business seat. If the door is closed, what happens? If the door is open, what happens? If we have pushed off and I get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia in the A seat, what happens?

Strong Eagle

I don't know what would happen under these circumstances.

To show one end of the spectrum, I was on a flight a few months ago where the cabin crew decided they were not going to serve alcholic or hot drinks (industrial dispute) and only announced it after pushback.

The passenger next to me called the hostess and asked to be offloaded, as he would prefer to make alternative arrangements.

To cut a long story short, the purser went white as a sheet and rushed off to the flight deck, coming back to say they couldn't return to stand.

At the end of the day, we both lodged strong complaints with the airline.

I don't know exactly what compensation he got, but I know that I received a complimentary return flight in the same class as compensation for the service delivery failure. I imagine that worked out rather less costly than missing a slot and the other financial implications of a return.

So the airline might compensate you for your troubles.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have also seen a return to stand and someone arrested for disruption under different circumstances.

Personally, I wouldn't undo my belt and stand up after departure, as you are disobeying a lawful command from the PIC.

One obvious remedy is to move the larger peeps into A&B and you to C. At least you would have breathing space on one side.

I guess a lot would depend on how you behaved and also how sympathetic the crew were on the day and whether the airline considered itself to have any responsibility (and one one need a lawyer to take a view on that.)

This has happened to me - Pax next to me had raised the arm rest to give them more space as in now sitting in part of mine.
I quietly went to see the in-charge, pointed out I physically couldnt get into the seat. They moved me up (although I ended up with the eco meal - pah). All done sensibly whilst doors were open and without embarrasment caused.

How long is a piece of string?

What would happen on the day would depend on the prevalent circumstances, the characters involved, the available resources and the degree of common sense applied. One thing that is for sure, a quick decision would be made.

If you refuse to sit in your seat, then it would depend on the reason for refusal. If it is a reason that cannot be satisfied, then the only option may be to remove you from the flight and leave it for other parties to resolve. Obviously you need to be secure in your seat for take off, and if that could not be satisfied for whatever reason, then the aircraft would have to return to stand to enable the previous option.

If another economy seat was available, I am sure that would provide the solution. If another seat in a higher class was available, that might also provide a solution, although consideration would also be given to moving the larger customer to it.

If you get up citing a serious case of claustrophobia, then the aircraft is no longer secure and the earlier option would once again come into play.

From an operational point of view, we can utilize whatever resource we have available to us, and obviously we would seek to apply common sense to any given situation. However if a situation presents itself that causes an operational problem, we will always have the ability to mitigate the problem by removing it, for others to resolve at their leisure.

Thanks, Bealzebub. I gather you are some sort of flight operations personnel.

If another economy seat were available, I would take it. If a business class seat were available, I would take it. If the business class seat were given to the person of size I would accept it but would seriously consider the service commitment of the airline.

I would never become hostile although I might become immovable. When I am maltreated I do seek appropriate redress.

But I think your quote,

really sums up the actual situation.

If I complain too much about the service I receive, for example, having my limited real estate occupied substantially by a person of size, what you are really saying that this is no democracy and that airline will use all the punitive tools available to it to enforce its position even if it means that my rights and my paid ticket are ignored.

So, if I did become immovable, then not only would I be removed, I would be charged with an unwarranted crime... I've seen too many of these. How about being arrested at de-embarkation for raising a stink after being stuck on the ground for countless hours.

And, I would be arrested were I to insist that I have a proper seat before the flight began.

And without implying any malfeasance on your part, this is the essential problem with airlines these days... especially US domestic carriers... I am nothing... to be ordered about... shat upon if required for operational efficiency and charged and arrested if I complain about my treatment.

Strong Eagle

I don't read Beazelbub's posting like you do.

The point I get is that they will do all they can to satisfy the passenger, but if they cannot, they will offload and then let the groundstaff or customer service staff to resolve the matter.

Also, I don't get why you would question the airline's service commitment, if it delivered the economy seat you bought by moving the large sized person elsewhere (as in a bigger seat.)

Transportation in a specific class involves a product defined by ground service, cabin service, baggage allowance, seat pitch and seat width.

If someone encroaches significantly on the space that I've purchased as defined by the product in my ticket, then it's the responsibility of the other contracting party i.e. the airline to provide a remedy.

Revman
I would like to think that this is indeed the case i.e. the airline has a contractual obligation to ensure that the space one has bought, whether it be Business/First/Economy or whatever, is not infringed by others but has it been put to the test? Has anyone been successfully compensated after the event should one have had to endure such compression for a whole flight?
I would happily accept being reseated elsewhere in the class that I had bought but where does one stand (or sit) if the flight is single class and fully seated?
My original post was one more of curiosity than hope but this is becoming an increasingly common problem down the back end.

Yes that is correct, a captain. Any airline will have a whole team of personnel involved in the operation of a flight, but once we have assumed command of a flight we are in charge of it and responsible for any subsequent instructions and decisions, even though those instructions may be given by another crewmember.

As well as the office holder for the job I do, like most other people, I am also a consumer, a parent, a spouse, a son and very frequently a passenger on an commercial aircraft. I am not immune to the realities of life, or the frustrations and difficulties that are faced by people in that context everyday. Like many people I take a professional pride in what I do, and get the greatest sense of satisfaction in being able to resolve a problem and being able to manage a team of other like minded people. Obviously there are times when a resolution may not turn out to be the best one, or when the only choices available have to be constrained to the lesser of two evils. But that is simply part of the reality of the job.

There can be few experienced air travellers that haven't experienced this type of discomfort on at least one occaision, as well as the whole spectrum of other travel related plagues that are part of the glorious world of low cost mass transportation these days. I doubt there is one of us that doesn't curse the cost of comfortable travel, or our employers refusal to afford us the standard of comfort, that we feel should be our right. We wonder at the manufacturers and operators seemingly strange idea that the average passenger is thin, short, patient, with staggered elbow lengths. However we all know the likely realities. On a bus or train, when your travelling companions (and probably their own embarassment is proportionate to your personal irritation,) body mass or limbs spill over into your space, you can move somewhere else or stand up. On an aircraft that isn't an option, which means you either put up with it, try and negotiate a compromise with your neighbour, ask for help with a resolution, or get off.

As I already pointed out, the application of common sense, compromise and good manners often goes a long way in resolving a problem. However if the problem cannot be resolved for whatever reason, then it must be curtailed. A flight is a time and cost critical operation, where any delay can have operational consequences that stretch far beyond the immediate problem. Ulitmately the captain is charged with making whatever decisions need to be made, and often that will be devolved or shared with somebody else within the crew.

If somebody refuses to act in accordance with an instruction, then the captain has the absolute right to have that person removed at the first available opportunity. What happens subsequently is a matter for other parties, and has no particular bearing on the immediate decision. If you feel that your "commercial rights" or indeed anything else have been violated, then you always have the same legal rights of redress that are open to everybody else.

I understand your frustration, but I also understand that the final authority on board a ship or aircraft rests with the captain. If you are dissatisfied with that concept, then you shouldn't purchase a ticket. You do have the right to complain subsequently, you do have the right not to travel. You do have the same rights as anybody else to seek redress if you wish or are advised. However you do not have the right to disrupt or interfere with the safety or regularity of the conduct of a flight without running a serious risk of facing the sanctions that are legislated to protect those aspects of a flight.

On these forums, we have the luxury of arguing a point to the 'nth degree. On an aircraft we often have to make a decision in seconds or minutes, before the problem becomes more wide ranging.

Captain Bealzebub, I sincerely appreciate your insights and views.

Permit me to first state that I have no problem with the captain having absolute authority over the ship... I cannot imagine it being any other way. Permit me to also say that in the majority of circumstances, crew at all levels have behaved in a professional manner. I'm not new to conflict and problem resolution; as a project manager for large scale projects this consumes most of my professional life.

Most of my contracts permit me business class travel for international and economy class for domestic. So, after a relatively luxurious trip on an Asian carrier from Singapore to LAX or IAH, I get to experience the 'joys' of domestic airline service.

I observe one thing directly. The power of the captain is all to often displayed in an arrogant, controlling, and self serving manner by cabin crew, far different than what I experience on Asian carriers. Second, from indirect observation, the airlines seem to be a 'zero tolerance' environment. Those that are removed are charged.

So, even if I had a reasonable request, my experience is that I will not be treated with any compassion, indeed, I will be treated as a trouble maker, with no recourse, and if you as the captain, did decide to eject me, I get the whole book thrown at me... kind of like the zero tolerance policies that get school kids expelled for drugs... except the drugs were an asthma inhalant or a prescription medicine.

You could call me jaded and be exactly right. I've been flying for business since 1967, and the overall changes that I have seen are dismal. It's not only about the increased packing levels, it is about how I am treated... and captain, knowing that your opportunities are limited, it would still be great if you could remind your crew to put us SLF's first... a denigrating term that ought to be eliminated from the vernacular.

Cheers.... and thanks for all the safe flights.

Jeezo!!!!! All this moaning and whingeing. When will people realise that short haul is a bus!!!. If you are uncomfortable, get up and walk about. Fares are cheap. It's an hour and a half journey. I must be special or something. In all my years of travelling I have never pressed a Flight Attendant bell or complained about anything. I repeat. It's a bus. Endure. You'l soon be off it!!.

Recently my wife and I flew BDL to STT via CLT. The flight from BDL to CLT was aboard a 737-400. Anyway, the wife had a window seat, I had the middle seat and a behemoth had the aisle seat. Needless to say the behemoth intruded into about half of my seat. (Plus, said behemoth could have at least showered before boarding ie, fat and smelly). Needless to say, the flight was most uncomfortable. The saving grace being the flight was only 2 hours in length. I didn't complain nor did I "walk around the cabin" as suggested above seeing that the fasten seat belt sign was illuminated for the duration of the flight.

Can said "over-sized" passengers not be flown in the cargo hold perhaps?

If you have to travel in Y or lowcost, then buy that middle seat.

You know it makes sense, especially as some of the charges may not apply to a spare seat.

If you are travelling as a couple, the extra cost is modest and given that airfares are lower in real terms, you're still getting a bargain.

No more behemoths inthe next seat :ok: and you have space to put your luggage or your working papers etc..

I've just looked on the Ryanair webiste and for a flight Malta/Luton/Malta in 2 months, with a week stay, the cost for 2 adults is 152€ and for 3 adults 229€.

So if you buy 3 for 2, the return fare is only 114.50€, for 6 hours of flying and relatively a lot of comfort with that empty middle seat.

If I didn't have a load of miles to get upgrades on Y tickets, that's what I'd do for personal flights.

If you're booking on-line, how do you buy an extra seat...
Can you just enter your own name twice, or what?
Then what happens on the plane, do you get two boarding passes?.

It depends on the airline, for example Ryanair publish a procedure.

But it is straight forward.

F3G - I'm curious. I've read the Ryanair web-page and see that it is possible to book two seats [never knew that until today] - how do you manage to keep the seat next to you empty? Say the flight is full [in that every seat is sold, including the extra one that you bought] what exactly do you physically have to do to keep the seat next to you vacant?