6,

wrt the CC rant above, others have expressed my same opinion and I have no apology to make. I'm serious in saying that if a CC goes to report to work everyday thinking about 9/11, something is not right with his/her psyche.

Be reassured that I have the maximum respect toward CC's role and responsibilities, no matter if someone else life depends on me or not.

The issue is another, seems like that every time there is a pax having a different opinion on things, or merely a report of inconsistency like in this case, the anwer from people "in the business" come invariably as absolute and infallible, like:

- Due to security regulations (often adding, that don't come from us)
- We do like that and if others don't, we don't even want to know, beside others are wrong by definition.
- It's "my" airplane.
- You don't know anything as it's not your profession.

In short, I see "you guys" to be very good at dodging and rebutting any critique or objection, always reusing the same arguments and not actually listening to what others says. Kind of the canned answer that one receive from CS departments. This can be a little appalling in forums where you expect the next person to be at least normally intelligent and able to dialogue.

el#,
I do not believe anyone goes to work thinking of 9/11. However every company is given advice by security experts on how to deal with risk. From that their ops manual dictates how we tackle the issue. I personally wish for the good old days where flying was a more personal pastime & included inviting pax to the flight deck (even for the landing).

The problem in this case seems to be a general one of lack of respect, in a minority on both sides. I have heard rudeness from both pax & crew. It is not required or reasonable. In either case I will speak to the offender.

Hell! This goes on! Just think of ticket girl at entry port as ticket collector in train.
Now just you imagine the fuss and problemos if Lufthansa wanted your seat number tattoes on the wrist.
And if you do not sometime think of 9/11 then the guys on United 93 should come and spuken you up quite considerably!

I've flown on many many many airlines and I've always had my boarding card checked at the door. (I've never flown Lufthansa - perhaps any crew can provide more detail about what happens here). I think it's also a nice opportunity to say hello to the crew operating on the flight. As European airlines are migrating to a standard EU-OPS set of regulations, you may begin to find more consistencies over the next few years.

Wait, it's getting even better now!

We kind all agreed that NOT ALL airlines require a the pass to be shown, and "boardingpass" (no nick would be more appropriate) tells us that good manners suggest to show it even when not required, perhaps in anticipation of EU-OPS!

:ugh:

Just took 4 sectors on LH last week.

Why oh why are Lufthansa CC so grumpy when I try to show them my boarding pass?

Surely a little common decency is not too much to ask in this day and age.

El, I'm not sure what post you're reading... I'm not saying you should show it if not required... however, if you do need to show it, why not take the opportunity to say hello to the crew? I don't think the crew will care one way or the other, but a little bit of interaction can be nice when air-travel these days is rather faceless.

el
 

I think you are missing something.

This a pilots site debating issues that are related to their industry. Then there are the other people that work in aviation who come here to share common views and discuss their industry. And then there are the passengers and aviation enthusiasts that are welcome to vent their spleens as well.

The cc rant that you and so many others have picked holes in just sums up the inside view of what we seem to do every day. We have to apologise for just about everything that happens to you when we didn't have anything to do with it. Yes it is our job and we do it because it is our job and we understand that we are the face of the airline and anything that happens to you whilst you are with us. We honestly don't mind that.

Is 9/11 on our minds every day we go to work? Of course not. What is on our minds though, is how easily it would be to let our guard down. We know that we sometimes come across as being party poopers when we ask you to comply with some every day rules that seem to have no sense to you. We do however realise that we are the last line of defence if something does happen in that metal tube zipping along at 500 mph some 6/7 miles up. Terrorism or just general disruption it aint the place for it.

I am sure that if I was to enter your world I would come across some policies and procedures that I would have no idea why they were there, it would seem that they were just a hinderence. And I am quite sure that you would tell me that there was a damn good reason for them. When its my bank telling me I can't get a loan when I can clearly pay for it then thats something to moan about.

6

All I wanted was to see some intelligent discussion about not everyone doing things the same way everywhere, I'd liked having CC seeing things from a PAX perspective once and viceversa, but I ended up being lectured trice.

I rest my case, most CCs and FDs that probably are the absolute best in their profession, when it come to a normal discussion, seems to be able to stick to worn and generic arguments only.

6chimes, it's certainly commendable that you have such a commitment in being the "last line of defense" in this "war on terror".

But, if ever (heaven forbids) you are held at knifepoint by some terrorist, you will then find who the last line of defense really is. To be overly clear: many angry passengers.

You aren't the only ones to have learned the lesson, but most of the time behave and talk like it was so.

el
 

I understand when you and many like you ask for the same rules and the same procedures across the board. For you guys that travel all over the place and all the time it must be a nightmare knowing what to expect and where. Gonna be honest with you though, thats part of the problem. This Global village is not quite as global as the airline adverts imply.

Do bare this in mind though; this is a very public forum so to explain or help could possibly compromise our security.

I won't lecture you at all, you could be the principal at harvard for all I know. Ask and I will answer the best I can.

6

6 Chimes
 

Can't say for them, but in Oz the Qantas group (QF, QL, and Jetstar) ask to see boarding passes at the aircraft door. Not sure about VB and Rex, as I've not paxed on either for years.

But if this thread was in D&G, it would have lasted about 5 posts, because over here no-one (pax or crew) really cares if we're asked to see our boarding pass another time.

We care about more important things...

Like Footy :ok: (Aussie rules and rugby, not that round ball rubbish)

and Beer :} (Ice-cold, thanks, and NOT Fosters)

and White-pointers on the beach, etc.


DIVOSH!

6chimes, we may have different views, I always appreciate a courteous talk in person or online, but that is becoming too rare I'm afraid.

I never ask about strange or sensitive matters simply because Google is inquiring minds best friend.

Wish all "you guys" easy flights and lot of quality time.
And to myself, to always have a smile and a job.

We care about more important things...
 

We care about more important things...

Like Footy (Aussie rules and rugby, not that round ball rubbish)

and Beer (Ice-cold, thanks, and NOT Fosters)

and White-pointers on the beach, etc.

mmmm..............
Like footy: Cos only you play it, cos you get it right sometimes, cos you never get it right.

Beer: Cos ice cold covers s:mad:te brew, Only gypsies drink fosters.

White pointers: That'll be the English girls whipping off their tops then ?

6

el
 

here here.

Its a shame that you felt so victimised. I can assure you that not one person I know and respect would ever put you down or belittle any passenger that asked a question politely. That is not to say I don't know crew who would!

6

Maybe that's why aussies are said to be laid-back lovely blokes and sheilas, whilst brits are said to be, let's face it, winging, whining Poms!

Maybe that's why aussies are said to be laid-back lovely blokes and sheilas, whilst b
 

Actually mate, my top ten worst reactions to being asked to show their boarding card are yanks.

Been told to f:mad: off several times by our friends from across the pond.

Most of the time the 'whinging poms' only moan cos they have put their pass away and are carrying briefcases, laptops and a suit holder so they have their hands full and it is a nuisance.

And if the crew keep them standing at the door causing a blockage they find it embarrassing. It is usually a lot simpler and easier to ask them to step into a galley or free space to find the thing in peace.

6

Just for info the reason I'm sometimes grumpy when I get on a 'plane is that I've had a crap journey to the airport, I've been shagged about at check in, forced to invert my intestines through security and then sat for an hour bored in a dull airport where even a simple drink costs a bleedin' fortune. Then there is a crush of gits trying to board the 'plane all at the same time. I get on knowing I've got several hours of sod all leg room and my fellow passengers will be using handphones, playing their hand held games without headphones & elbowing into my personal spaceand I'll struggle to get enough drinks to numb the pain. And that's before take off.

Simple solution. If you cannot deal with that (as bad as it maybe) and not have the common courtesy to be polite, then don't fly.

The airport journey is worse than it once was but it's not all that bad either.

Finally someone's twigged the nub of the problem! Perhaps the grumpiness would go away if those airlines requiring the BP to be shown on the aircraft put it into the boarding announcement at the gate? "After presenting your boarding pass to the gate agent please keep it handy so that it can be checked as you enter the aircraft - we don't want to take anyone somewhere they hadn't planned on going today".

It wouldn't stop the professionally grumpy, but would probably keep those juggling bags, kids, laptops etc happy as they would know to keep it available.

round and round
 

Whew!!! Finally got to the end of the thread.

Here we go round and round in circles.

Conclusion (as SLF): have BP ready to show, if it is not required no harm done. If CC not friendly try another carrier.

Conclusion (as CC): Smile and ask politely for BP. If response is positive & courteous keep it in the memory bank. If response is negative or grumpy then make a withdrawel from the memory bank.

My theory is that showing your boarding pass has nothing to do with security or protecting revenue, but more to do with.....

Mr Plod: "Evening Sir. How are we this evening? Had anything to drink this evening?"

Yes! The only reason for the CC to interact with the SLF when they get on the plane is to establish if anyone is "under the weather". As they say in the classics: Forewarned is forearmed.

Actually, yes you do. Often

It is if two crews make a pig's ear of their headcounts. You DO do headcounts, yes ?

It is if two crews make a pig's ear of their headcounts. You DO do headcounts, yes ?
 

No we don't. As strange as it may seem it is deemed that the electronic system used at the gate in the UK is adequate. The final check by us at the door is the safety net, so head counts no longer needed. They were found to make a/c miss slots etc. (LHR where its busy). It is actually very easy to muck up head counts. Babies under mums jumpers (yep I've had it), on twin aisled a/c the seat rows are not always even and are often staggered, so its damn easy to mess that one up. Downroute we do the headcount if we can't be sure of the system used for boarding.

So its us that door as safety net for the system that is supposed to be good enough at the gate.

Mid mar mile, it is for security nothing else. and if you are that inebriated that we can tell as soon as look at you then you are a security risk.

6

This thread must be a contender for "longest thread about not much at all" award :rolleyes:

Keep your passport and boarding pass handy until you're in your seat, smile and present it when asked and try to relax. Worrying about how many times you're asked to present your bona-fides is just going to make your life shorter.

I smile and say "Hello" and present my boarding pass when I get on a plane. Reactions vary from a grunt and point toward the rear of the plane through to "Welcome back, Mr Grumpysnail."

Air travel sucks. Rolling your eyes and grumping at people isn't going to make it better and may well make your trip worse.

Interesting.

That strikes me as a security risk.

Most of the airlines I fly with do a headcount.

That piece of information has made me more reluctant to fly with UK carriers.

All it takes is for someone to produce a photoshop boarding pass for the "wrong" flight and the door entry check fails dead. I think the security argument just imploded.

Unbelievable.

If someone did 'create' their own BC they would have to know which seats were free. Which they couldn't do with any degree of certainty.

The system at the gate has its own way of monitoring heads.

No it is not 100% fool proof. Near impossible to exploit though.

The headcount never picked up folk on the wrong a/c that was picked up earlier with double booked seats when 2 people tried to sit in the same seat. The headcount only ever made sure that no one was left behind. The system now covers that.

6

Well done :ok: :ok:

Cheers all,

DIVOSH!

6 chimes, that only works if you pre-assign seats. Think it through love.....

Talking here as a BA 744 driver:

In the olden days of the Classic 747, and the days of headcounts, you could be there a week trying to get the count correct. Each time it was done you would get a different result. 500 passengers and it would be, 499, 503, 498, 512, 489, 499, 500.. yay we can go. Hopeless.

Now the BP has an electronic tag that is read by the machine at the door. That is how the heads are counted in this day and age. So when we are "one down" we know exactly who it is, we know exactly (ish) where on the aircraft his bag is, and we can get that bag off quickly, and get on our way.

Two points:

Why cannot PAX be told at each step along the line, starting with check-in, that "This is your boarding pass. You'll be required to present it as you board the aircraft." There will always be some who won't have it at the ready, but at least the repetition may get through to the majority, especially the non-frequents.

Point two: Concerning aircraft security, I'm surprised that I've never heard from crew who have been on either hijacked aircraft or on aircraft that had a serious threat (such as Richard Reid). I believe - VERY strongly - that if we could ask any of the PAX or crew on any of the 11 September flights, or anyone in the WTC who happened to be looking out the window having their morning coffee and saw AA 11 coming straight at them, about their views on security, they would very likely support strip- and cavity searches for anyone getting within 100 meters of any airplane.

Or how about having a half decent security search in the firstplace. US domestic security pre 9-11 was a joke, a national disgrace.They might say it was recklessly lax to allow box cutters with a bloody sharp blade on an aeroplane.

Now of course it's gone too far the other way as the TSA over reacts on a daily basis.

If you read the thread, people don't see it as a genuine security check any more than confiscating miniscule screwdrivers and 150ml Lynx deoderant. If you're really so hyper worried, ban the duty free bottles you sell becasue so help me God that would do way more damage. I *bet* that you won't be doing that anytime soon We ask for intelligence and consistency and instead we get "body cavity searches". Right.......

Headcounts
 

6c, time for me to make a withdrawel from the memory bank. I was merely trying to show how the thread has spiralled inwards on itself!!!

Now accuracy of headcounts (L337) brings up another memory. I was flying on an internal flight within South Africa with a departure time of 7am (PEAK!). I observed the CC starting the headcount at the back of the plane, moving forwards. After about 12 rows they seemed to loose count and came back to the back and restarted. There were 3 restarts before the count was successfully completed. During the flight I took a quick walk to row 1 and back, there were only 3 empty seats on the whole flight!!! If the plane is more than half full don't waste time counting heads!

One trouble is, very often, every aeroplane in the fleet has a different configuration. On the 744 we have big and little club configurations. Then some seats are u/s and blocked out etc etc. On a 737 or A320 it is a much easier task. On a big aircraft it is a fraught with errors.

Sometimes 2 people are in one seat... Mother and baby. People move whilst the count is taking place, despite being asked not to.

To try and make sense of the current security regulations in aviation is going to drive you mad. It is mostly designed to keep the Daily Mail editor happy as far as I can see. We, as in we the crew, pilots and Cabin crew, have to endure airport security multiple times a day. It is as bad for us as it is bad for you.

I deliberately bid to avoid the USA because of it.

In my airline, 9 out of 10 pax have their boarding passes ready to show when boarding. The ones that have popped it away usually don't take too long to find it. The thing that annoys me is when they say, oh my wife's got it and points over their shoulder. But the wife is at least 10 people back. This seems to happen to me about 3 out of 100 (or about 5 per plane!) I'm not married myself, but why is there this dire need to separate yourself from your missus (and not take your b/c with you?)

If you were married, you would know.;)

Agree :ok:

Right. So the 'security' aspect of checking the BP again at L1 is to identify those passengers who have materialised or dematerialised in the jetway ?

Hey, don't expect me to defend the security procedures in place. We do what the DFT ask of us. Allot of it is barking at best. I suspect that all that is achieved at the door to the aircraft is to allow the cabin crew to direct you to your correct seat, and correct cabin.

Just on my most recent flight a passenger sat in First class, with a coach ticket, and refused to move. Full stop refused. Only with the threat of the Police did he go to his correct seat.

S O E
 

We do pre assign seats love .................:E

Although just in case you misunderstood, I did not mean that it was a UK wide rule, it varies from airline to airline.

6

Well, this is a serious problem and one that requires considerable thought.

However, here is my cunning proposal to solve the issue...free...no charge..gratis.

When approaching immigration, there's a sign that says "Please have your passport and boarding card ready for inspection".
When approaching the gate, there's an announcement saying "please have your passport and boarding card ready for inspection.......".

(Now, I come to my earth shattering suggestion.....)

When that announcement is made why not add"......and keep your boarding card ready for further inspection at the aircraft door for security"..?
Even more cunning, the agent could say " Thank you Mr Strake, have a nice flight and..ooh, please keep hold of your boarding card because they'll need to see it at the aircraft door"

See, brilliant!

The foreigners won't file the card with their passports, the bolshies will have no reason to be..well bolshie. The rest of us can smile, be happy, strum our guitars, hand out peace flowers or generally do what ever we do to try and forget the absolute, total bulls**it ,c**p, pigstink bo****cks beyond belief, that is the commercial flying experience of 2008.