flybywire,

I am simply taking a word from SXB's post, SXB used the word 'haters' with respect to Ryanair.

Then I asked a series of questions in order to clarify what SXB really means. I can understand people 'disliking' Ryanair, but hate?. I think when that sort of word comes out things are getting nuts and objectivity has gone out of the window.

F3G,

It's horses for courses. I have used FR and EZ on business when it suits me flying in Europe. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. What ryanair have done is provide additional choice, and forced the legacy airlines to compete. I actually think BA's value for money offering in Europe has improved since Ryanair and Easyjet came on the scene, had these new upstarts not arrived then BA would still cut service levels but without cutting fares. Competition is generally good for the consumer.

final 3 greens
 

why would you pick EZY over RYR ?
if you were low costing

have you not see the amount of canx flights they
have, I love low cost airlines and would use AB
if the network was better

however having given EZY 3 chances I avoid them

1st flt STN-NCL day trip to visit mum in hospital
aborted landing and turned to MAN
coach to NCL arrived at NCL after my RTN
flt had departed made to pay for another
flight

2nd flt IBZ-STN flight canx missed days work
put on next flt next day

3rd flt PRG-STN delayed 4 hrs got onboard sat for
1 hr then got told to flight was canx
got back to departure lounge only to see
pax for LGW boarding our a/c

now you might not trust what im saying is true
but that was my only flights with EZY im not picking
out the bad ones

and as for RYR I have flown then about 40 time and only
had one problem delayed 1 1/2 hrs out bound to REU

Slim_slag

You have raised an important point about competition in Europe. It is true that some fares have become more competitive, but this is not just due to Ryanair, as there are many good budget operators who work to much higher standards of service delivery, such as flybe and AirBerlin. The real problem comes as a business traveller, as the cheap fares are not available at short notice.

I have not noticed a reduction in BA fares or any other carrier for that matter, but this is because I book at short notice to travel on business. I have however, noticed a serious reduction in service standards (and seat pitch) in Airlines, including BA whose seat pitch will shortly be the same as Ryanair/EasyJet. My honest opinion, is that Budget airlines have had a negative effect for people travelling on business in Europe. Service standards are being lowered across the board (along with pay and conditions for staff) but business (flexible Y or C) fares are not, in order to effectively subsidise the headline grabbing cheapo fares, sold below cost.

The only people who have benfited from this are the type of leisure travellers who can be extremely flexible on travel dates, and book well ahead. If you fall into that category, you will think budget airlines are great. If you fly on business, and can still remember the high standards of service that previously existed, you may not think so. Competition is great in any industry, but it won't always be beneficial to all segments in the market.

10secsurvey,

I'd agree with some of what you say. It was deregulation that allowed competition but that was some time ago now. In the early days BA just ignored this and carryed on as usual. It took an airline like Ryanair years to become a certain size and start kicking BA's ass and only very recently did BA realise it has to compete. Unfortunately BA sat on it's backside for too long and Ryanair was too big, it was no Laker and couldn't be squashed. This was to the benefit of BA passengers, and I thought that was all we cared about on here :)

So you have brought up prices. If you want to compare fares for BA, FR and EZ at any time on any roughly equivalent route then pick them and I'll run a simple comparison. What I suspect you will find is that FR is significantly cheaper than BA for any period you select, short term or long.

My major memory of flying on short notice in Europe twenty years ago is high prices, not level of service, but I do remember two drink runs and a hot meal on the MAN shuttle. Rather expensive drinks though when you look at the ticket prices.

Ryanair has a very,very long way to go before it can be like Southwest, and I doubt it would ever want to be like JetBlue (a quality airline). I would so love someone to set up a Jet Blue equivalent in Europe, as I think it would have the effect of pulling up service standards in ALL airlines. Hey, maybe Aer Lingus could be re-born as the JetBlue of Europe??

Just to reassure you, BA (I speak for mainline Europe) are not going to change their seat pitch for short haul and are retaining Club Europe on all their destinations, with full Club Europe service. I do not know where you heard of this new seat config, I knew they were looking at new seats but exactly the same pitch just better materials and wider.

If people can plan a little bit in advance (same system for every lo-co) BA have reduced their fares incredibly in Europe, just have a look at their website under "planning my trip" then --> "Our low fare routes".Fares start at £25 one way including taxes.

In fact sometimes for me is cheaper to by a normal online ticket with BA than to fly ID90. In may I went to Turin for £69 return, including taxes, I booked 2 weeks early and those were not even the cheapest days to fly. Same days with FR were over £140.

Like F3G I too prefer Easyjet to Ryanair. I have always had a pleasant experience with EZY, all around, despite their modus vivendii is not too distant from FR's. It's just a matter of choice, in my case the choice is highly influenced by precedents.
So I do not "hate" no-frills airlines, I have used them when their schedule was convenient for me. However as a crew, and as a frequent traveller I know what the benefits of a "traditional" airline are and I know that I couldn't do without it for 99% of my flights.

FBW.

PS:F3G it's always great to see that Latin still means something to people nowadays!!:ok: :ok:

10secsurvey,

Now that could be an interesting and novel thread, how could Ryanair become a Southwest/Jet Blue and how far away are they?

1) When you get a problem you need real people on the phone who are empowered to immediately solve it for you, within the T&C of course.

2) No longer point to point, transfer baggage and people within the ryanair network, and if a flight gets in late book you on next one at no penalty.

3) Better web based interface to change travel plans.

4) Frequent flier plan, Southwest's is absoultely superb, best in the industry IMO.

That's about it.

The quid pro quo would be higher ticket prices. Southwest and Jet Blue are not anyway near loco in the same way Ryanair is, you don't get anywahere close to the same deals as Ryanair offers. Maybe if given signifiantly higher ticket prices most people prefer Ryanair as it is, who knows, I might be one of them.

For BA to become a southwest would require changes to their corporate culture which would be a lot harder than the above changes to Ryanair, imo.

There's some truth in what you say. Although for example to fly with FR to Turin at £30 (even with fares at £0.01 once you add the taxes you end up paying at least around £30) I have to go to STN, which costs me money in petrol, parking, time etc. If for the same period BA offers a £59 flight, return, all inclusive but from LGW I end up spending much less,since I live down south, so it's definitely cheaper for me.
It's not just the ticket price itself that needs to be considered, in my honest opinion.

BA doesn't want to become a jetblue of the UK, it's not in their intentions and it's something completely different from their philosophy. Even if they could cut the service/costs even more etc, they would not work as a low-cost, for the same reason why EI was "voluntarily kicked out" of the Oneworld Alliance.
They need to give some kind of consistency to their passengers connecting to and from long haul.
But their new prices have been proven successful, until last year BA's shorthaul was only a feeding network for their long haul routes, now it stands on its own. There must be some kind of success behind this.

I wish FR became like Jetblue, they have far more potential than BA in this field as they were born a low cost and didn't need to adapt their style. Jetblue is by far the best low cost carrier I've ever flown with, everything is better, from the cabin crew to their ground handling, and would fly with them again :ok:

But we've been down this road quite a few times already. FR is usually cheaper but not as cheap as the raw statistics would suggest, because most people don't have the luxury of picking the cheapest day of a 7 day period to fly out, and the cheapest day of a 7 day period to fly back. For those pax who can only fly out on one particular day, and only fly back on one particular day, the only fair comparisons are for the fares on those specific days alone. Only when you get the fare differential for those days can each individual person make up their own mind about what is good value (as opposed to simple low price).

daz

This extract from the easyJet T&Cs is why I wouold choose EZY....

. If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances

If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even though we took all reasonable steps , including but not limited to:

* Air Traffic Control
* Weather
* Civil unrest
* Terrorist alerts and Security alerts
* Strike Action
* Unexpected flight safety shortcomings

easyJet will not compensate you further other than providing you with one of the following options (“Re-routing and Reimbursement Options”):

You will be entitled to:

1. Re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

2. Re-routing to your final destination at later date at your convenience and subject to availability; or

3. A refund of the fare paid for the journey not made and for the journey already made where the flight no longer serves the purpose of the original travel plan. This refund can be claimed by visiting our website (www.easyJet.com) and completing the online cancelled flight form in the contact us section. Additionally, where relevant, we will offer a return flight to the first point of departure at the earliest available time.

In addition, you will be offered free of charge two telephone calls, or telex or fax messages or emails.

Where you choose to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity:

1. You will be provided with meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to your waiting time; and

2. If an overnight stay is required because the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after the time of departure previously announced, easyJet shall offer you hotel accommodation and transport between the airport and the hotel free of charge.

And they deliver on these promises.

Check out Ryanair's T&Cs and you will find...

Ryanair does not provide compensation for flights which are delayed or cancelled for reasons beyond Ryanair's control.

That is very clear and on this forum I have posted several times that Ryanair have laudibly clear T&Cs, but as a FQTV I am aware of the potential for disruption "if you have time to spare, travel by air" and the difference in T&Cs makes it a no brainer for me, since even with travel insurance (which I have), there is still the matter of finding avaialbel hotac when a lot of other people are trying too and then the hassle of arranging ground transport, e.g. have I got enough cash for a taxi.

In effect, I am prepared to pay a premium (since EZY are often more expensive that FR), because I buy based on best value which is a subjective judgement, not lowest cost which is data driven.

However, if you prefer Ryanair and it works for you, then I'm pleased for you.

Slim_slag

Of all the budget carriers in Europe, I would think Ryanair would be one of the last to make it to equivalence with southwest. Wasn't it just recently, that Southwest took great exception to Ryanair comparing itself to Southwest.

There are many innovative airlines in Europe, good examples are flybe, and AirBerlin. In fact, I stand to be corrected, but I think AirBerlin is becoming very like southwest, much more so than any other European budget carrier.

Its all well and good having the fall backs and I would feel that I would need them
more with EZY than with RYR
everyone has a choice and mine was made due the things
that happened to me on my 3 EZY flights
yes I did get compensation from EZY but it was like
getting blood from a stone and not the tax so we are
talking a few £'s not the full cost of the flight
where in 40 flights with RYR I had one bad but not that bad
flight so as far as I see it the best choice for me is RYR

Im lucky that I live near STN and have a large choice
of low cost airline I have used many and would always
look at RYR first and then the others but RYR always comes
out on top for price and dep times and network

I have to say AB would be a good choice but they need
more routes

daz

It all comes down to our preference at the end of the day and we are lucky to be able to choose the option that suits us best.

Have a good day.

Easyjet charges for second bags
A budget airline is to charge passengers an extra fee for putting a second bag in aircraft holds.
Easyjet said the increased security measures at UK airports was to blame for the move.

It will cost passengers £10 to put additional luggage in the hold on check-in or £5 if paid in advance.

Spokesman Toby Nicholl said: "We've seen in the past three weeks an explosion in the amount of baggage put in holds and it is delaying check-ins."

He added: "We're trying to incentivise passengers to take one bag to reduce delays."

bbc

Is incentivise a real word?

Is incentivise a real word?

The Oxford Dictionary says it is, although it would prefer the last s to be a z, as it comes from a Greek root.

Re: Easyjet new additional baggage charges


Quote : "We're trying to incentivise passengers to take one bag to reduce delays."


More like, we're trying to make a fast buck whilst the security scare lasts, and dress it up to look like we're helping passengers.

10sec

I agree that this sounds as if there may be an element of presentation to make it more acceptable, but I wonder what has happened to handling costs and whether this is a cost recovery tactic with delay reduction benefits?

We know that the airlines have been increasing hand luggage allowances and one wonders if their contracts are based on a target number of pieces per flight, with penalties for more? In which case the latest restrictions will be costing the airlines a lot of money, as do delays.

Daz, can you shed any light, without giving away commercial info?

Ezy / Ryr
 

I see today that EZY has canx somemore flights EX-
EZY3076 - OVD
EZY238 - EDI
EZY516 - NCL
EZY3776 - BIO

anyone know why ?

see this is what I was going on about EZY seem to be canx
flights on a daily basis

I think it's been discussed quite widely on PPRuNe that EZY is having some capacity problems, and there's quite a lot of subbing going on for them as well as canx - a search might throw up some of the threads.

Slim_Slag
I don't hate RYR and there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest that I do. The term 'RYR haters' and 'RYR supporters club' were just convenient labelling terms for the two main groups of opinion. It's interesting that you pick up on this point more than other, more relevant, points I made.

I'll say again that I don't consider RYR to be a real airline, they fly point to point to cherry picked destinations. This is of absolutely no use to me what so ever, I need airlines with large route networks and quality backup services.

The legacy carriers seem to be a bit more forward thinking in their route planning as well, they regularly take huge hits on certain routes in order to strengthen sectors further down the line, this is especially important for someone like me living in provincial France away from a main hub. In recent years AusAir, LH and AF have all made significant efforts to pick up business from my locality with BA doing the same from FRA, I can get into these airlines networks with the first sector almost thrown in for free.

Like I said earlier I have nothing against RYR in the same way I don't have anything against McDonalds, National Express Coachlines, Brittany Ferries or the Manchester Bus Corporation. Their products are either unsuitable or I just don't like them.

so it happens to BA
 

o dear o dear
looks like BA is more like RYR after all


Operational problems at Terminal 4 - TODAY
Terminal 4 is experiencing operational problems today as a result of severe congestion in the baggage system caused by the high volume of bags being processed. As a result the terminal building is heavily congested and check-in for the time being, has been suspended. BAA and British Airways are working closely together to resolve this issue and sincerely regret any inconvenience this is causing or may cause to passengers

Oh dear oh dear...

BA has ongoing problems at T4 and we all know that. The way BAA handled the chance of security threat level wasn't very good, for both BA and FR (In fact they're both contemplating asking for compensation....).
Hopefully after the move to T5 things will get better at LHR.

However...to say that BA and FR are the same.....I do not think so!!!!
:rolleyes:

well lets just say that many people on here wrote
many things about ryanairs baggage problems
and may I just say that it aint ryanair still sitting
with 1000's of bags and ryanair dont suspend
check-in lets just see how many more bags get
left at LHR

and your right you cant say ryanair is the same as BA
as ryanair are much better at getting your bags to
the destination on the same a/c as you

I would rather wait an hour for my bags than have
them left sat at LHR for week

and now its ok to say its BAA that have the problem
after I tried to tell you all over the last few days

Groundhog day
 

This is all going the same way as the last thread, it will all become increasing personal, nasty and irrelevant so why bother?

I'm sure we established last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...

• Proposition 1 (P1)
"Whatever any of us may think about FR, the fact remains that they are the most successful airline in Europe, by any criteria you can mention. The fact is that a majority of their customers are satisfied, and that this group of customers is expanding. Opinions about FR tend to be subjective - You like/admire them or you don't, sometimes based on personal experience, sometimes on principle: We all have the ultimate consumer sanction of taking our business away from them if we choose to do so. The fact is, by and large it doesn't matter what we do. There are millions of people who choose to fly FR and are happy with the product - not just the back-packers, students and sleep-on-the-floor-at-Stansted groups, but also the great British middle-class - the public, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that this is how they wish the air travel market to be, and therefore that's how it is."


• Chorus
"In the end, this is a customer driven industry, and the customer will decide how best to spend their hard-earned income - and in the case of FR, they are choosing to spend it there"


• Proposition 2 (P2)
"I loathe FR and O'Leary with all my being. Together, in my view, they have destroyed any pleasure and quality of life for either customers or staff, that ever may have existed in the industry. I have never travelled with them, and never will, purely on principle. I would rather pay more for what, in my perception only, is higher qulity. That is my personal view, and I am clearly in a small minority: it is unlikely that MOL lies awake at night worrying about my views. Put all of that together, and it probably means I am wrong, or at least that my principles are poorly founded."

• Chorus
"In the end, this is a customer driven industry, and the customer will decide how best to spend their hard-earned income - and in the case of FR, they are choosing to spend it there"

Now you can all save yourself an awful lot of effort just by typing either "P1" or "P2",

I'm still with P1, BTW.

I won't fly with RYR but I don't fall into either category. I don't hate O'leary, I've never met the guy though I will pay more for a quality service.

Also, I wish people would stop calling RYR the most successful Airline in Europe because they certainly are not, success is not measured by adding up passenger numbers on very, very short sectors and then saying you are bigger than BA and LH. RYR are to be congratulated on their increased revenues and passenger numbers but you can hardly expect the Legacy carriers to have similar % rises, in any case they are already huge customer bases. If you want to look at a real success story over the last couple of years look at the AF/KLM group, they've achieved good % rises in both passenger numbers and revenue. Again, this isn't an airline that I've liked in the past but one has to congratulate them.

I'd be interested to know where RYR sit in revenue terms with the rest of the worlds airline and I don't just mean in revenue from european routes, I mean just total revenue. I could probably get this info from the net somewhere but I'm sure someone else has this info to hand.

AF/KLM group

I remember them they try to block RYR giving customers a choice

Daz
Yes, I agree with that, I think everyone should have a choice, this includes RYR pilots and their right to join a union. I think it would be very underhand, and possibly illegal, if, for example, RYR attempted to get their pilots to sign a contract which said something along the lines of 'if you choose to join a union at a later date we may decide to make you pay back the cost of your conversion training - €15000' :)

Seriously though I agree with you, I assume you are referring to the STN-SXB route where RYR were found to be receiving subsidies from the local chamber of commerce (via airport and landing fees) the RYR deal was clearly good for the local community as they were flying thousands of people here each week for tourism putting millions of euros into the local economy. The only people losing out were AF, whose SXB-LGW route was like the marie celeste, hence the court action.

That said RYR often attempt to use the court system against their own employees and customers and while, on occasion, they win their moral position is often questionable. Normally they are trying to muscle someone into submission and they can sometimes do this because they are bigger and have more resources. Therefore it's quite amusing when an even bigger entity with more muscle and resources give RYR a taste of their own medicine. If you take on AF in their own backyard they will give you a legal pasting, on this occasion their moral position was questionable but technically there were correct.

CARR30

P3 for me.

I use them if there is no alternative.

I don't hate them, just find using their service the equivalent of being stuck with the Sun when I'd really prefer the Economist.

Yep, it's better than having nothing to read, but that's about as good as it gets.

Actually, wasn't it more like;

I'm sure you imagined last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...


(my bold)

:ok: :ok: :ok:

Oooh! It's all getting personal again.

P1

I didn't intend for this thread to become another FR slanging match. I was just trying to find out if what the BBA guy at STN said was true. I was frankly shocked by the piss poor service I received from FR on a late night arrival at STN, on a bank holiday weekend, which meant I waited nearly 2 hours for my bags, only to be informed that this was a nightly occurence, had been going on for a year, and that as a result the BAA guy and his colleagues were leaving in droves as they were so fed up with it.

FWIW, I am with P1, on a qualified basis: that FR usually provides an excellent product at a very low price, and that when things run as they should, the customer is very happy. However, it appears that at STN I was not the victim of things going wrong, but the bog standard that is to be expected from FR for a late arrival. As has been stated, FR must be aware of what is going on and clearly can not be bothered to do anything about it.

If I could be bothered I would have complained and applied for compensation, but the fact I've advertised the situation with this thread and that it's been read by a large number of people is enough for me.

It's a shame, because right up to the last hurdle my first experience of Ryanair had been excellent and I had nothing bad to say about them.

f I could be bothered I would have complained and applied for compensation

Oh, be a devil and go ahead and we can look forward to the thread letting us know how you get on :ouch:

F3G, if you don't like this thread, you don't need to click on it, much less read it and post childish comments like that.

I suspect you've enjoyed it hugely, or you wouldn't still be here :rolleyes:

F3g had a perfectly valid point. Ryanair - compensation? what compensation??

As to your main point, as I have posted before, it would be good to know what the relevant management (Ryanair, BAA or whoever) are doing to rectify the situation. All I've seen so far are lame excuses.

Well I read his post as a snipe - sorry if I misread it.

Anyway - re: compensation, I'd not have expected to get anywhere - however I was looking at the EU passenger's charter the other day and there is stuff about baggage.

If there's an expert out there who can give us a quick resume of what the passenger's contractual and other rights are in relation to baggage I'd be very interested.

Wedge

Not a swipe at you as 10secondsurvey pointed out, but I think you'll be very lucky to get anything other from the airline (or any other airline) than an apology for a short delay, by which I mean that you got your bags back at the airport, not a few days later.

Now when they go missing for a few days, you might be able to get something then. Its happened to me three times in the last year and one one occasion I got £100 to cover emergency clothes purchases (missing for 2 days), whilst on the next it was a free overnight amenity pack (a very good one) and the bags back the next morning.

Until then, you have a choice who/where/when to fly with/from and it appears that late night arrivals at Stansted may well have baggage delays, so its a judgement of whether you are prepare to trade off some frustration for what you report as being a good deal, just as I sometimes have to decide how much I want to get home on a Friday night, when airports are mad places, compared to a leisurely Sat am. start.

F3G
Can you enlighten us on which airlines which provided you with immediate cash compensation and the amenity pack ? I suppose I'd be right in assuming it was not RYR in either case ?

final 3 - made a good point

you do have a choice who when and where you fly
but remember alot of airlines are having problems with baggage
if it were me I would stick with RYR as BA seem to be having
alot more trouble with baggage and im sure you would rather wait
upto 2 hrs for your bags at stansted than have your bag join
the 1000's at heathrow that are waiting to be delivered