Average height.

According to this article it's 5'9" for blokes and 5'4" for women. So looking at these stats it seems perfectly ok for excel to offer the seat pitch they do.

You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

And IATA's motivation in doing this would be... what exactly?

Don't get me wrong - I think that seat pitch is very important (well, I would, I'm 6'4"!) - but I can't see any reason why IATA would wish to become involved (even if they weren't a sclerotically bureaucratic nightmare :rolleyes: )

• First, many of the LCCs and charter carriers - the worst offenders - aren't IATA members (Excel, First Choice, TUI, Ryanair and easyjet - not an IATA member among them);
• Second, if you are an IATA member airline with low seat pitch, you're not going to be happy that your trade association to which you pay substantial annual fees is forcing you to publicise your inferior comfort levels;
• And third and perhaps most importantly, as has already been remarked on above: for the majority of punters, seat pitch is simply not the determining factor - price is. If seat pitch is important to you in making your airline decision (e.g. if you're 6'4"), you probably already know of third-party websites where you can get this information (one example of several here; there are others).

Oh, and that minimum seat pitch of 32"? That would be relatively comfy, but for an LCC/charter-configured aircraft would mean about 10% fewer seat rows per aircraft, so about 10% higher fares. Can't you see the converse argument? 'The average person can fit in 29"! I'm average - why should I have to pay extra to subsidise tall people?'

C.

I suggested IATA as an example. There are many other ways the same could be achieved, but only if there is a will or enough people complain.

As to the thrust of the point just made regarding the cost implications. This is the kind of spin you see from beancounters at airlines. By increasing seat pitch a small amount, it does not mean fares automatically will go up to compensate, due to the fact that it is a competitive market. If all airlines were equally affected competition would keep the price rises (if any) very low. This is one of the advantages of a competitive market.

All service industries squeal like this when threatened with some regulatory requirement that may hurt profits, it's just that nowadays an awful lot of the general public have been duped into believing the spin. I assure you, that whilst theoretically you can calculate price rises, the reality would be quite different in a competitive market.

What would be the benefit? Faster loading and unloading of passengers/luggage/turnaround. More overhead locker space per pax. A more pleasant travelling experience overall, which may even make the life of airline employees much better too, with happier passengers. There are loads more if you think it through.

There is another aspect of this nonsense about price rises, the average flight ticket price rises and falls on a regular basis by much more than 10%, so would anyone actually be able to tell?

As regards this notion of average height people in some way 'subsidising' seats for taller people, could the same not also be said for people with hand baggage subsidising those with luggage, or those who need sky cots, or those who use the onboard toilets, or those who weigh more than average. In fact with some airlines such as SAS, it could be argued that those who foolishly purchase overpriced food in the cheap seats are effectively subsidising the free champagne being sloshed upfront.

Why not make the seat pitch lower - would that mean cheaper flights? No, of course not, just bigger profits. Simple really.

Lexxity,

I missed your post. It is a useful post you have made regarding average height, but the problem is it is an average, so there is a distribution around that average. I'm sure someone on this site who is more mathematically minded than I could elaborate further, but essentially this means there are probably quite a lot of people who are 6'2" or 6'3". It depends on the distribution. So whilst on the surface it seems like most men will be 5'9", the reality is a very large proportion of them will in fact be much much taller. Don't forget, that average figure is probably generated from a minimum sample male height of what? maybe 5'0" (I accept there may be exceptionally smaller cases) and a top height of say 6'7".

Anyway, if there are any statisticians present, maybe they can elaborate. Bottom line is that this effectively shows an awful lot of men will be 6'2" or more.

Maybe someone has access to the details?

Pitch and price
 

At 6'6" seat pitch is extremely important to me when I travel. But I generally don't pay extra for premium economy / business etc as I prefer to save my money and spend it staying in a nicer hotel or renting a bigger car etc during the bulk of the holiday.

At the end of the day the flight doesn't take up much of the holiday time so I can handle a few hours of discomfort.

Also I turn up early for check-in so that I can get an emergency exit seat; which works about 75% of the time. If it doesn't and it is an exceptionally long flight then I 'll ask for and may pay for an upgrade at the counter (normally cheaper than paying beforehand).

I also check SeatGuru to see where the best seats on the plane that I am flying in are and try and pre-book these as a backup. SeatGuru is also good if you have a number of options as to who to fly at about the same price / convenience.

Experience is a good one as well; I don't fly with a very large German carrier anymore as their seats are so uncomfortable and I can't take advantage of the meal / drinks that I have paid for in my ticket price due to not being able to get the tray table down. Likewise there is no point flying around Europe with any other legacy carrier as I can't eat or drink for the same reason so I may as well fly Loco as the service level is exactly the same for me and the price is cheaper.

But at the end of the day if I can't get a decent seat then I don't blame the airline as I don't want to pay any extra for my flight and so it is my fault for being a tight git that I am uncomfortable!

That said it would be good if all airlines had to publish seat pitch with flight price as it would make things much easier when comparing; especially as SeatGuru doesn't have all the airlines on it.


PS - Mods; I know I've mentioned SeatGuru a few times and am not sure if it is advertising (there are others out there). If you want then I'll edit my post!

James 1077

Your posting almost reads like a PR release for budget airlines. I did find it interesting that in previous posts you state that you are a regular flyer with BA, but in this post you state that you may as well use Low cost carriers. And this from someone who travels to Luton every day, and posts in the Cabin crew forum. Hmmmm..

I am a reasonably regular flyer with BA; but I normally only fly them long haul rather than short haul (in the last 12 months I have taken 9 long haul BA flights for leisure (the 10th was a Qantas codeshare but I don't count that as BA) and 2 short hauls for business). Probably not regular in comparison to business travellers but probably one of the more regular leisure travellers.

Long haul was pretty good but I have flown better for cheaper (the wife used to like BA though; but worries about safety now). Short haul is as stated above; pointless for someone my size unless it is the cheapest option available.

If Locos start flying long haul from airports that suit me then I'll probably look into flying them long haul but I do quite like the added luxuries of a blanket, pillow and not having to search for my wallet when I want a cup of tea when I am only the plane for more than a couple of hours. However I can't really see how a true Loco model can fly long haul for this, and other, reasons so doubt that it will happen.

And does it matter that I work for a Loco? I am posting purely as SLF on this forum and stating what I do. At the end of the day I have flown quite a lot as SLF and, this topic being about height and seat pitch, thought that I could put my experience onto it. In my posting I don't think I told people to only fly with my company - as I don't do it myself. Again in the last 12 months I have flown Sterling, Ryan and easy and always chose on price and convenience. My next flight is in a couple of weeks with Virgin on long haul pleasure; so I don't think that I am all that biased.

Just for a laugh, at the risk of bieng called a :mad:

what about small people????
why should small people subsidise average people :}

Wooly

woolyalan

Great post about small people subsidising average pax. When you think about it, most economy pax subsidise other economy pax in some aspect of flight or another.

I just find it difficult to believe the average punter really thinks:

"hmm..this airline really is crappy and dreadfully uncomfortable, but hey, they are quite right to make it crappy and uncomfortable. I must remember to fly with them again, as their advertising has all told me that if I want it to be at all marginally comfortable, I'll need to pay gazillions of pounds more for my ticket." Doh!

Honestly, if punters really do think that (as suggested by some above), then they are the consumer equivalent of turkeys voting for christmas, and things will only get worse for both the travelling public and, importantly, the cabin crew who have to deal with them.

poor seats/airlines
 

If you want poor seats, try Onur air (If are even flying in Europe again).

Last year myself and my family booked an early morning flight to Dalaman fro Gatwick. Problems (read never intended to fly) within Onur meant the flight was delayed and delayed then rescheduled to eventually fly 14 hours later meaning we then had a night flight. I paid £300 extra for the four of us to take a morning flight to avoid this in the first place.

If that was not bad enough, the return flight (on time) was in an A320/1 and we were given the exit row. Poor planning or not but it meant myself and two children having to swap seats to Take-off and landing even though my 11 year old is 5'3" tall and plays prop forward, he was considered too young to operate the emergency exit whilst allowing an 80+ year old who could barely stand to remain seated there :ugh:

I know who my money was on to get out first :ok:


When we were moved to take off, we went to the row behind.. Now I am not tall at 5'10" and, having measured my legs (back to knee) I need 24" from the front of my backrest to the back of the one in front to not be squished. Even with 2" seatbacks this means a sub-standard 26" pitch is the minimum I could fit in.

The seats we were given must have had a set pitch of 22" or less as I could not sit with my knees infront of me, i had to move my legs either side of the seat in front to even fit. It was far from comfortable and probably very dangerous.

Onur will never get my money again.

bushbolox,

Which greek airport did you fly to and found the terminal bad? With the exception of LGIR (Heraklio) most terminals are fairly decent.



Rwy in Sight

I dont find them bad the punters do.:ok:

Bbrown I used Onur a few years ago on various trips from Istanbul to Eastern Europe. I don't remember them being any different to the other fly and pray brigades that existed at that time. Eastern Europe in the 1990's was an interesting place aother as far as aviation was concerned, anyone who took internal flights in those days will know what I mean. Anyone who didn't wouldn't believe what used to go on. additional PAX allowed to stand in aisles, sometimes no cabin crew, no functioning seatbelts.....

Punters don't think that it's great that the airline is crappy and uncomfortable. They DO think it's great that they got to Greece for £100. They're not turkeys voting for Christmas, they're people making a choice about how they spend their money. Or they're stupid.
You get what you pay for. Do you buy a cheap tiny car and then complain that it's too small? (If so, more fool you for buying it.) Spend the money and make your choice. The budget airlines are in a cut-throat market place where they need to pile 'em high (ie sqeeze in as many as they can) and sell 'em cheap. If you don't like it, don't fly them. BA would love to have your business.

Hotel California
 

Excel Airways are a bit like the song Hotel California.....

"You check in but never leave......."

I consider myself at 6'1" to be normal sized, and like NOTRO, shop in normal shops etc. I take the point about you pays yer money and takes yer choice, but realistically what choice is there Manchester to Chania? Yes maybe via Athens or Timbuktu with a regular airline, but believe me, my experience on the likes of Emirates, Singapore Airlines, BA the seat pitch is not much better than the loco's or charter airlines. Malaysian on the other hand was great, but I don't think they fly to Chania. Nor do Virgin Blue.

Mhk77's original point was that a normal sized person could not physically fit in the seat and that the cabin crew were surly, a point that talkingbolox or whatever his name is chose to ignore and berate him for blaming the crappy terminal etc on the crew. Which he didn't.

I could not do the job of cabin crew purely because I could not tolerate the behaviour of some pax. Surely the people who are cabin crew though should have the necessary people skills, and like us who have the choice of which airline we fly - they have the choice of what job they do. I'm always pleasant to the crew and often just get a snarl in response. My experience with Excel was similar to mhk77's and I tried the whole flight to get a smile from the hostie. She tried just as hard (and succeeded) to not smile and in fact acted as though the whole trip was a painful chore.

Finally it has been said by bushbolox that the crew should be reported (how does he know they haven't been?) and that moaning on here won't fix it. Well I don't think that mhk was moaning, he was airing his views which this forum invites people to do:

Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about.

Hi all,

Totally agree. The B767 in a 2-4-2 configuration is just awuful. Flew on Thomsonfly B767-200 and have to say it was the worst flight I have been on for space, e.g leg room and I was only flying on one of their shorter routes, Malaga to Manchester.

Anyone who is tall, give it a miss, or pay extra, for extra leg room.

Will never do that again.

Cheers all. :ok: :ok:

RAC/OPS

I so much agree with what you have said in your post, especially the final two paragraphs.

I was referring to points made by James 1077, regarding this idea of pax thinking that a crappy experience is great. In his post he indicated that if he is uncomcomfortable, then that is just fine, and that he wouldn't complain, as the flight was cheap etc..

On the original poster's point about seats too small to physically fit in (not just uncomfortable), this is an issue that the aviation industry has not taken on board yet. A lot of general passengers who know little of the aviation industry, do want their flights cheap, but they also want (and rightly expect!) seats they can fit into.

If the general public cannot fit in a particular airlines seats, then that airline should clearly state the size limits of passengers they will accept for carriage (i.e pax up to 6'0" only, and no taller, for example). But it needs to be very clearly stated at the time of booking, and not hidden in small print. Either that or make the seats big enough for everyone, to ensure safety is not compromised.

As regards budget airlines needing to 'cram them in', there are many fine examples of budget airlines around the world that don't. In the USA for example, Jet Blue has a seat pitch of 34", some 5" more than the likes of excel/easy etc.. Even Southwest in the USA has a seat pitch of between 32 and 33" (according to a quick google search).

Being 6'9" tall, i'm considered to be of over ordinary height. But when i book my annual ski-ing/summer holiday with First Choice, i normally find them most helpful, when i ask for a seat with extra legroom they dont apply the normal charge as long as i send in a Dr's letter stating my height, and that im also able bodied so i can operate the emergency exits if needed.

Also i find Schedule carriers most helpful too, so far i have been upgraded free of charge on BA,AC,CX and QF. If i could afford to fly club/business then i would. But most carriers appreciate that i had no choice in the matter of being tall. And when i have finished my flights i always send a letter of thanks to the airlines involved for understanding that no matter how hard, i wont fit in a normal economy seat.