A Plea for Common Sense and Decency

[bealine]

Since British Airways have re-awakened the sleeping giant of Internet Check-In and Telephone Check-In, aircraft seating has become an absolute nightmare - to the extent that these excellent facilities may need withdrawing unless customers co-operate!

If you use these facilities - please DON'T take a Window and an Aisle seat on three abreast seating when there are two travelling! Due to the price cutting of our tickets, most of our flights are at least 80% full right up to Christmas 2002 and are likely to be well into the forseeable future! Please book two seats together and, when you arrive at the airport, politely ask if the flight is busy. We can't give you precise numbers, due to the Data Protection Act, but can give a vague definition - "Choc-a-bloc, Quiet etc". If it's quiet, we'll happily give you the window and aisle at the airport!

Believe me, it's soul-destroying for the couple who turn up at check-in three hours before departure only to find they can't be seated together - and this is now happening!

Thank you in anticipation of your help!!!

[Boss Raptor]

Used to have the same thing on the LHR-Moscow flight as BA used to allow block booking passengers with tour companies like Kuoni to pre-book window and aisle seats...

So same thing, get to the airport 4 hours before 'sorry sir no window or aisle seats available'...used to be even more annoying as the tour companies were paying a peanuts tariff compared us regular flyers...and you'd get stuck sitting between two oldies...you in the middle and them either side in the window and aisle seats...almost invariably a couple who would chat across you throughout the flight...

Does no one at BA actually talk to each other...appears not...good luck Bealine looks like your having to take charge again...

Good example of communication...at BA not!

[Eboy]

Can't BA give the couple that wants to sit together seat assignments, say, a month or two in advance, as do many U.S. airlines?

[SLF]

bealine

This s not a new problem at all, used to happen all the time out of LHR when transit passengers were checked thru and took all the good seats.

At least with Internet checkin we get the chance to put our towels on the seats first - not before time IMHO!

[Behind the Curtain]

Bealine,

I think the online check-in facility is excellent, getting that window seat on an exit row, and more generally, how easy it was to check in and go through the airport, made a recent trip to FRA and back with BA much more pleasant.

Are these people changing both seats in one visit to the web site? I don't think the software should allow more than one seat per booking to be specified, the others should be allocated nearby automatically. If checking-in separately, it could be made so that only the first person to check-in gets to choose.

Just this once, I know a bit about the subject , as my day job involves a railway seat reservation system. Many of these, including the one I write software for, are based on airline systems. Most are clever enough to put groups together, but do seem to have a habit of squashing everyone down one end of a coach.

[essouira]

I'm with bealine on this one. I think the BA pre-booking system is great and it's a shame if it gets abused. I travelled to chicago with United recently and they won't let you pre-book your seat unless you are a frequent flyer. Seems daft to me as I am never going to be a frequent flyer with United now after they treated me so poorly.

[25F]

As you mentioned it, behind the curtain, here's my wish list for GNER's seat reservation system. To be able to request
1. A table seat.
2. Which side of the train it is.
3. Which coach.

You can now tell me that you don't work on the GNER system...

[christep]

We can't give you precise numbers, due to the Data Protection Act

I have to say I find this bizarre... I thought the DPA was designed to protect individual data from public disclosure.

Can anyone with legal knowledge confirm this statement of Bealine?

[Globaliser]

I agree with SLF - 'twas ever thus. I have frequently had res cheerfully pre-allocate window and aisle when the limit hasn't yet been reached.

I've always adopted the decent approach, though, if and when someone has turned up for the middle seat, which is to offer them either the aisle or the window depending on one which we'd prefer to give up. I've never yet known anyone insist on sitting in the middle seat (and they'd be welcome to it if they did). But what you get in the interim is the benefit of that seat remaining low down the priority list for allocation, and maximising the chances of it staying empty.

We can't give you precise numbers, due to the Data Protection Act

I have to say I find this bizarre... I thought the DPA was designed to protect individual data from public disclosure.

Can anyone with legal knowledge confirm this statement of Bealine?

I'm not sure that it's strictly correct, either. But the DPA is now routinely trotted out as an excuse for keeping all sorts of confidential information confidential. My impression is that many staff are being trained to say "the Data Protection Act doesn't allow me to tell you" because it's easier for the customer to swallow (or be hoodwinked) than if they're told "it's confidential and I'm not allowed to tell you". A little white corporate lie that minimises trouble.

[bealine]

We can't give you precise numbers, due to the Data Protection Act

I suspect you're right - I'm no legal expert (otherwise I'd be earning a fortune elsewhere!) - but I think BA have taken the commitment to the D P A seriously enough to try to ensure nothing that could compromise the individual's privacy, or the safety and security of our clientele is divulged by any staff member. For that, for once, I stand firmly behind BA management!

After all, a seemingly innocent casual remark about the number of pax on a particular flight, could assist someone's husband or wife work out whether their partner's last minute business trip could have been booked at short notice or not! If you relax the rules, it wouldn't be long before a staff member crossed the boundary and disclosed whether or not hubby was on the flight and whether he was with a female companion!

Can't BA give the couple that wants to sit together seat assignments, say, a month or two in advance, as do many U.S. airlines?

On Long Haul flights (except LGW - Orlando), approximately 40% of seats are preassigned at the time of reservation. These are only pre-booked according to (a) Pax with disability or special requirements (eg travelling with infant - bulkhead seats required) (b) Frequent Flyer status -BA Gold and Silver, One World Emerald and Sapphire tiers and (c) Fare Basis (the low-yield fares don't qualify).

The remaining seats are released between 24 and 48 hours ahead of departure. (48 hours for "Through Check In" transfer pax - which is where SLF's previous problem arose

This s not a new problem at all, used to happen all the time out of LHR when transit passengers were checked thru and took all the good seats.

Fortunately for our home-grown clients, BA's transfers are declining, and so more seats are available when the flight goes "live" on-line approximately 24 hours ahead.

Because the passengers on this service nearly all comprise families, the flight LGW to Orlando only has prebooked seats for special requirements and frequent card holders. Between 48 and 24 hours before, the flight is "edited" and families pre-seated by BA staff to ensure most pax, who wish to be, are seated together. Ther hiccups occur when separate bookings for each family member are made by the travel agent or when one family member travels on Air Miles and holds a separate booking....By and large though, the system works well compared to how I remember it years ago! Once editing has finished, the flight is released "on-line", but pax will find their seats pre-allocated with very little opportunity to change.

On Short-Haul flights and Domestic, there is no pre-booking. Full "C" class tickets and Frequent Flyer card holders have seat requests entered which BA does all it can to accommodate, but often has to change due to the position of the Club divider screen.
These flights are released on-line 24 hours ahead.

Funnily enough, it's the short-haul flights that, recently, have become the biggest problem with couples pre-allocating themselves the aisle and window seat!

Sorry to be so verbose, but I would like to clarify why the problem has arisen and thank you for your support!

[MarkD]

Guys,

as someone who works in the IT field, this sounds like bad system design, and as someone who regularly praises BA.com and is an EC member, it's not on to "blame" pax - just have the system on a trigger to be withdrawn once a flight reaches a given level.

Each pax can't know whether they are "abusing" the facility, especially as they don't have access to how busy the flight is!

[BRUpax]

I don't see the problem. First come - first served. Why should my wife or myself be forced to occupy a middle seat when we have made our reservations long ahead? I happen to enjoy a window seat and my wife prefers an aisle seat. If they are available at the time of booking then so be it!

[bealine]

I don't see the problem. First come - first served. Why should my wife or myself be forced to occupy a middle seat when we have made our reservations long ahead? I happen to enjoy a window seat and my wife prefers an aisle seat. If they are available at the time of booking then so be it!

Not a problem at all - if you've no intention of talking to each other for the whole flight! It is a problem, and offensive, if you talk over the poor "Johnny in the Middle" however! - unless one has a window at the back and one an aisle at the front?

As for your comments, "First Come, First Served", this selfish attitude underlines the flagrant abuse of the "Internet" and "Telephone Check In" facility which we, as staff members, cautioned our management about at their inception!


Globaliser Wrote

I've always adopted the decent approach, though, if and when someone has turned up for the middle seat, which is to offer them either the aisle or the window depending on one which we'd prefer to give up. I've never yet known anyone insist on sitting in the middle seat (and they'd be welcome to it if they did). But what you get in the interim is the benefit of that seat remaining low down the priority list for allocation, and maximising the chances of it staying empty.

Now, this may appear the "decent" approach to you. However, how do you think "Johnny in the Middle" feels when he turns up, with his girl friend, only to find middle seats left. Hypothetically, let us suppose you have 16A and 16C. Johnny gets 16B and, because of other unwittingly "selfish" couples in 16D and 16F, his girl friend gets seat 16E. You shove Johnny into the window 16A and his girl friend gets shoved into 16F - don't laugh, it happens! If you had taken 16A and 16B and the other "selfish" couple 16E and 16F, Johnny and his girl would have had 16C and 16D - together across the aisle, but far better than separated!

[Globaliser]

Now, this may appear the "decent" approach to you. However, how do you think "Johnny in the Middle" feels when he turns up, with his girl friend, only to find middle seats left. Hypothetically, let us suppose you have 16A and 16C. Johnny gets 16B and, because of other unwittingly "selfish" couples in 16D and 16F, his girl friend gets seat 16E. You shove Johnny into the window 16A and his girl friend gets shoved into 16F - don't laugh, it happens! If you had taken 16A and 16B and the other "selfish" couple 16E and 16F, Johnny and his girl would have had 16C and 16D - together across the aisle, but far better than separated!

I should have been clearer. I don't pretend that I'm not being somewhat selfish when doing that. I would be sorry if that was the consequence, and it sounds like it is becoming so - and I'm glad you are making us aware of it.

However, in my experience, I've never had anything other than a singleton pax turn up for the seat, probably because check-in (or the department dealing with allocation before check-in opens) have done a good job of making sure that the couples do have what adjacent seats there are.

If the scenario you describe had occurred, I would myself have had no hesitation in suggesting that he took the aisle seat, in the hope that the other couple would do the same. In other words, a bit of give and take and mutual consideration solving the problem. If more insoluble problems are arising, then I agree that it may be unduly selfish to keep doing this.

One other thing, though. Some airlines deliberately create this type of situation for their frequent flyers (QF, of which I have much experience). They have a system of automatic pre-allocation of seats as soon as the frequent flyer number hits their booking system. If there are two singletons in a row of three, the middle seat is blocked for as long as possible to maximise the chances of it staying empty. So there the airline actually does automatically what you would prefer us not to do! (I suppose it's QF's problem if it makes life difficult for itself.)

[Boss Raptor]

The customer should always be given and deserves/demands a choice...the BA automatic allocation system completely negates that and I have also discovered has anomalys such as I have detailed earlier whereby some passengers i.e. tour groups are allowed to prebook seats even when the system supposedly no longer allows choice for anybody (except those identified with special needs)...

On the other hand allowing blanket pre-booking of seats is also wrong and causes the problems as described by Bealine..

The answer...seats allocated on first come first served basis at the check-in, if like myself the passenger wants a window or aisle seat then they should arrive early at opening of check-in...it is when passengers do make this effort and discover all the good seats have gone the problem escalates!

[Behind the Curtain]

25F,

All the UK train companies (except Eurostar) use the same reservations system: unfortunately you can't pick the side of the coach... but a human at a station/telesales should be able to pick the coach you're put in, and finally, giving a preference of "forward" or "backward" should give you a table seat - all other seats are, to bring it a bit back on-topic, described as "airline".

Back in the air, would it not make sense for all groups to be sat together? My wish list for air travel includes getting a seat next to someone in my group even if they check in first (as they usually do!) They'd get the good seat, but at least I wouldn't be rows away. Perhaps other seats could be held for some number of minutes after the first one checks in?

bealine, I think normal pax (and it is the same for railways) will assume that whatever they can get away with is OK if the system doesn't stop them!

BtC.

[bealine]

MarkD wrote

as someone who works in the IT field, this sounds like bad system design, and as someone who regularly praises BA.com and is an EC member, it's not on to "blame" pax - just have the system on a trigger to be withdrawn once a flight reaches a given level.

It's true - the software could be changed to withdraw on-line facilities once a pre-set limit had been reached. However, instead of "blaming" the customer, we would then be guilty of inconveniencing the customer - equally bad form. Let's face it, we all want these services to continue, the only way they will is through mutual co-operation.

Incidentally, the Emergency Exit seats are not supposed to be available for on-line or telephone check-in so please ignore the remark made earlier. Sometimes glitches occur, such as an aircraft change, which release exit seats into the on-line plan by mistake - not a problem if the pap (singular of pax) is fit, but the DETR or CAA (or both) say we must have knowledge of the customer before allocating such a seat.

Globaliser writes

However, in my experience, I've never had anything other than a singleton pax turn up for the seat, probably because check-in (or the department dealing with allocation before check-in opens) have done a good job of making sure that the couples do have what adjacent seats there are.

I know it's not your intention, but what happens often is that single male gets 16B and his girlfriend gets 24E. If they're foreigners, you probably wouldn't even be aware they were separated. If their names are different (ie they're not yet married) the ground staff and cabin crew wouldn't even be aware they were separated and, as a check-in agent, I have no power to juggle other pax seats around to accommodate them. I'm glad you can now see the dilemna - I know you, and 99% of the pax I have hitherto branded as "selfish" are not being inconsiderate deliberately. Unfortunately, 3 row seating is an unhappy arrangement - perhaps someone could tell Boeing and Airbus!

[BRUpax]

Bealine , I don't accept that we (Mrs BRUpax and I) are being "selfish" with our first come - first served attitude. We are not deliberately trying to split other pax up. What we are doing is taking advantage offered with an early booking to avoid the dreaded middle seat. Why if we booked early should we be penalised in favour of a late booking or check-in??? When Mrs B and I fly on industry tickets we (quite rightly) end up with what's left. When we pay we take what is available to us when booking.
By the way, as much as we enjoy each other's company, we don't talk across to each other and we have often travelled in seperate rows.

[Globaliser]

I know it's not your intention, but what happens often is that single male gets 16B and his girlfriend gets 24E. If they're foreigners, you probably wouldn't even be aware they were separated. If their names are different (ie they're not yet married) the ground staff and cabin crew wouldn't even be aware they were separated and, as a check-in agent, I have no power to juggle other pax seats around to accommodate them. I'm glad you can now see the dilemna - I know you, and 99% of the pax I have hitherto branded as "selfish" are not being inconsiderate deliberately. Unfortunately, 3 row seating is an unhappy arrangement - perhaps someone could tell Boeing and Airbus!

I understand the problem, but I'm not so sure about the shortage of solutions.

On every occasion when a deliberate use of the window/aisle "trick" hasn't worked, I've chatted to the singleton pax who's turned up - all genuine singletons. Of course, if the trick works and the middle seat stays empty, it follows that no couple has been split up. Check-in ought to be able to identify most couples in advance, because most will be travelling on the same booking.

I've once been part of a group of three who had the benefit of a row of three all to ourselves. Until we were split up at the gate because a Gold Exec Club member wanted to canoodle with his wife. It was only EDI-LHR, and we had been so late that it was a miracle that we were accepted for the flight at all, that I thought that the argument wasn't worth it. But it was intensely irritating to have three good boarding passes (issued about 90 seconds earlier) taken away at the gate by an agent who had taken it on himself to do all this rearrangement manually.

And we've all seen cabin crew negotiating with other pax on board to swap seats to get couples together.

But I agree that if there is a growing problem we ought to be sensitive to it.

Obviously, sometimes airlines have no choice about how many seats in a row. But I'd understood that airlines picked 3-in-a-row seating where they can when they expect a higher proportion of singleton pax, to maximise the number of empty middle seats. 2-in-a-row where possible is better on routes (eg leisure) where you expect a higher proportion of couples.

Hence BA's 3-3-3 777s, compared to AA's 2-5-2. On the BA aircraft, if all pax are singletons, then nobody needs to sit next to anyone else until load exceeds 66%. On AA, if all pax are couples, nobody needs to sit in the dreaded middle seat until load exceeds 88%. And doesn't someone have a 3-4-2 layout in a 777, to minimise problems?

[PAXboy]

And all these years, when two of us have been travelling together (same surnames or not) (one on FFMs and the other not) we always took two together with the middle seat a given. We would swop turn and turn about as to who had the middle and accepted that it was pot luck if the aisle seat was free.

What fools we have been for not demanding more!