Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your questions here?

ouch, that hurt!

Old 17th Oct 2002, 14:10
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Post ouch, that hurt!

From various news sources today(17/10), but may have occurred on 15/10:

"Up to 15 passengers were injured when a Qantas 747 encountered severe turbulence en route from Tokyo to Sydney yesterday. Eight passengers were carried off the aircraft on stretchers and taken to the hospital after the 747 landed at Sydney at 7 a.m. local time. All were admitted for neck injuries."

Does this mean that pax are still ignoring the advice to ".....keep seat-belts fastened at all time, except when moving around the cabin"?

Last edited by newswatcher; 17th Oct 2002 at 14:18.
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Old 17th Oct 2002, 14:26
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Or maybe they were doing exactly that....moving around the cabin, and everybody was surprised by CAT?
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Old 17th Oct 2002, 14:44
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I hope there were no fatalities and symathise with those injured.

With maybe 400 people on board, I would expect there would always be about 15 people actually moving about in the cabin. Especially now they've all been told it reduces the risk of DVT. Besides a lap belt wont prevent injury from a decending drinks trolley for instance. DVT or CAT it seems we can't eliminate all risks, just minimise them.
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Old 17th Oct 2002, 23:37
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Newswatcher,

You've got it in one.

I'm constantly amazed to observe pax sitting with their seat belts unfastened. I've even seen some undo them as soon as the aircraft is airborne.

Earlier this week while SLFing I saw about half-a-dozen pax stand as the aircraft was taxi-ing to the jetway!

It's a bit hard to have sympathy for fools, as opposed to those legitimately moving about the cabin at the time.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 02:09
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The wearing seat of seat belts in this country is enforceable by law, that is it is an offence not to be except for some clearly defined circumstances.

Why not in aircraft.?
I'm sure most countries regs have some requirement for passengers to obey the lawful commands of the crew.
But I think that needs to be directly pointed out as part of the cabin PA.
The airlines accept that its OK to announce that (in Oz anyway) that smoking in the cabin is prohibited by law etc, seat belts are required for landing and takeoff, why not an appropriate announcement re seat belts for cruise that is a bit more prescriptive than a recommendation.
It might not be great PR but it would be much more effective.

Likewise with the brain dead described by Dan K who are up and running as the aircraft turns off the runway.
The cabin staff are between a rock and a hard place as they are strapped in for the same good reasons, why should they have to risk their necks rounding up these dumbos?
I was recently subtley offered violence after I quietly but fairly forcefully told my seat companion (a putative Master of the Universe) to sit down and buckle up as we had just turned off the runway, still had significant speed up and still had a long ride to the bridge. I suggested to him that I really couldn't care less about him breaking his neck, that it was mine and the pax around us about whom I was concerned.
It would have been much more effective had the FAs had the authority AND the teeth

The sad thing about the accidents stats, in West Oz anyway, is that around half the fatals were not wearing the seat belts provided.
And not surprisingly a large proportion of those being "tourists".
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 06:00
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From gaunty’s last post:
I was recently subtly offered violence after I quietly but fairly forcefully told my seat companion (a putative Master of the Universe) to sit down and buckle up as we had just turned off the runway, still had significant speed up and still had a long ride to the bridge. I suggested to him that I really couldn't care less about him breaking his neck, that it was mine and the pax around us about whom I was concerned.
I recently flew on Emirates to Melbourne where the captain’s ‘welcome’ PA out of Singapore got my attention. It went along the lines of “(yada yada yada)… I’ll be turning the seat belt sign off after we’re airborne, but for your own safety, and just as importantly, for the safety of those seated around you, may I strongly recommend that you leave your seat belts fastened in the cruise.”

That captain had the right idea – it’s not necessarily the clowns who undo their seat belts the moment the sign goes off who get the serious neck injuries in unexpected turbulence, but the poor unfortunates those same clowns land on.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 06:45
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If I am climbing into a jet stream (any direction) I will always lock the seatbelt signs ON for all in the back until I get stable in the cruise. I often get lots of moans for this, because luckily - 95% of the time I am being an old granny. However the odd times I am right - it saves bones.

My view is "sod the service" and I always make an appropriate PA. Not to alarm, but to explain. CAT/Shear/Whatever can be very nasty. We are well advised to be carefull.

MG
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 07:39
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If pax only had automatic seatbelts like in cars it would be way easier for them to remain belted while seated.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 08:08
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You mean passengers can't co-ordinate the movement of two hands at once or that they are holding a steering wheel with one hand?
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 08:12
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It does put the CC between a rock and a hard place, the Emirates guy is on the right track.

Not to long ago I was paxing and as soon as the aircraft had taxied off the runway about twenty pax stood in the two isles. I was expecting to cross the parallel runway but obviously ATC changed their mind and the boys up front threw out the anchors.

The mayhem was hilarious, its called widebody bowling, this rather small F/A with a big voice stood at R4 and told everyone to sit down and they all complied.

We had not made it to the parking bay and people started getting up again, this time it was the tone of this booming little voice, “don’t make me get up again”.

The rest of the paxing crew and I were in stiches.

Moral of the story, Humans are almost the dumbest creature on the planet and some are dumber that others. Some will learn and some will not.

My experience is that no matter what efforts you make to comply people will do their own thing in an aircraft.

Africans, Asians and southern Europeans seem to be the most keen to flout the rules and I suppose that reflects the societies they come from, every seen political debates in Taiwan or Italy……
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 09:01
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People,

Just keep in mind that most SLF just don't understand. They think they're in this thing that's as big and safe as a small office block but don't understand that it's scooting along the taxiway at 40mph and those brakes which slowed it from 160kt to zero? Well they can stop it pretty quick from 40mph, too.

The moral is, that most punters reckon that the main danger in air travel is either something going awry on take-off or landing, or the whole caper coming unstuck at a great height; they don't comprehend that things can get nasty when the beast is happily down with all wheels on the deck. Just as they probably don't realise that most car-related deaths occur not when the thing's on the freeway, but in quiet suburban streets.

So... a short explanation that (eg) as we're taxying at 40mph to get you to your gate as fast as we can, if we come to a sudden stop you will fall & get hurt; or that by turning on your mobile phone, you risk us losing control of vital systems (so it'd better be an important call!); or that if we hit turbulence, you may suffer broken bones - not too scary, but graphic enough to make the ignorant stop & think .

Better if these things were law, but until then, making people think about why they're being asked to do something will usually result in greater co-operation.

My two-cents' worth!!
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 09:20
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@mickey
Obviously people dislike to sit belted for hours. If they could still move a bit their acceptance to keep the belt on might increase.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 09:22
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Saw a few pax learn a hard lesson on an AA 727 once. It pulled up to the airbridge but not quite to the parking line.

Naturally the pax couldn't wait for the belt-sign to be turned off, and half of them stood up -- only to be knocked off their feet when the aircraft suddenly shunted forward another couple of yards.

Made me laugh, anyway. I'm almost certain the skipper (who'd been pretty emphatic about the seat-belt) did it on purpose.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 09:30
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I am sure there is some small print in the terms and conditions of buying a ticket that requires compliance with crew orders etc

However, I was always under the impression that Crew have no power to do anything to passengers once up in the air.

ie: If I chose to stand in the aisle for the entire flight, the crew could ask me to sit down, even demand, but they have no legal right if I refuse. As long as I don't swear, get upset, or threaten then I don't think there is anything the crew could do. In fact if they tried they may well end up in hot water.

Of course, the airline could always ban me after that but I think this is the problem crew face.

Needles to say, I take a keen interest in air safety and am not advocating any of the above, but when a lot of passengers have difficulty in even finding thier seat when boarding its hard to believe they even think about safety.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 09:31
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Post legal implications

Is it possible for the wearing of seatbelts to be mandated by "criminal" rather than civil law? When I am halfway across the Atlantic, am I subject to UK or US/Canada law? Is the "Warsaw Convention" relevant here? Or is it that I am only subjected to "Civil" law by not wearing a seatbelt - thus breaking my contract with the carrier?

With reference to mobile phones, and for the more technically-minded, I suppose a mobile phone jammer is not viable since I believe this process also utilises low frequency radio waves, which would interfere with the aircraft systems.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 10:25
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Lightbulb

Maybe we could give them the choice of accepting the advice of those of us who do it several times a day, and keep our belts (4 point ones to boot) done up throughout, or wearing a huge uncomfortable, sweaty, bulky, self-inflating air bag/lifejacket suit for the duration of the flight that has integral gloves that makes the operation of even the oldest laargest mobile phone a physical impossibility. Maybe not good PR, but better PR than injuries due turbulence, and it would save us the effort of having to write the ASR!
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 10:37
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The airlines accept that its OK to announce that (in Oz anyway) that smoking in the cabin is prohibited by law etc, seat belts are required for landing and takeoff, why not an appropriate announcement re seat belts for cruise that is a bit more prescriptive than a recommendation.
Funnily enough, the standard QF announcement is "It is a company requirement that your seat belt remain fastened whenever you are seated, even if the seat belt sign is off." or similar words (OK, I confess to having heard them enough times to know what it says without listening to them!). It's the strongest formulation on any of my regular airlines.
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 10:47
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Last week on a Olympic B717, taxing to stand in Istanbul. I was sat in the aisle seat, and as we were taxing in, the bloke in the window seat get's up and moves towards the aisle. I had no inclination to get up until the kite had stopped so remained seated. Bloke looks at me as if I was from Mars and proceeds to pour a bucket of Greek yabba-da in my direction. I just looked at him and said "sorry mate, but the seatbelt sign is still on and I'm not moving until it's switched off". More Greeek yabba-da, but in a slighly more agitated tone and then the fcuker proceeds to climb over me to get to the aisle. Should probably have grabbed him by the balls and pulled him down, but as luck would have it the skipper decides we've come to the end and STOPS the aircraft. The bloke, one leg on either side of my legs, naturally looses his balance and ends up in a rather un-dignified position on the floor. I almost p1ssed myself laughing.

But it's not over yet. Having gotten himself to the feet he starts pouring yet more Greek yabba-da at the hostie. My greek is not really up to speed, but I'm sure he blamed her for falling over. The stupidity you see on almost every flight is incredible.

Now on roller costers the seatbelt thingies are locked in place and cannot be opened by anyone but the operator of the coaster. Why not install something similar on aircraft, so that it would be impossible to open the seat belts before an electric signal has been sent, enabling the buckles to be un-locked? Hardly rocket science is it?
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Old 18th Oct 2002, 12:41
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What happens when these electronic locks fail (as all things man-made do from time to time). Imagine after takeoff when the captain has switched off the fasten seatbelt sign and you have the passenger with the weak bladder desperately needing to use the toilet but yet unable to get out because the electronic locking device on the seatbelt has failed?

(Though it could be designed to open when it fails).
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