Another reason not to fly to the US
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 312
From: UK and Italy
Another reason not to fly to the US
Apart from the risk of being hassled by the ICE and held in custody for weeks before being deported, apparently for no reason, there seems now to be an ATC crisis in the US.
'But they are well paid!' goes up the cry. Not actually that well. Like train drivers, bus drivers and airline pilots they have tremendous responsibility, their pay reflects that, and they don't earn that much more than train drivers, despite handling the safety of a lot more pax per day.
It takes a special kind of mind to be an ATCO. I'd be hopeless at it. Both by inclination and education, I'm an analytical thinker, trained to take a complex problem, and separate it out into things which can be solved and solve them. ATC requires multi-taskers, and most people can't do that in the depth that is required. Most people who apply for the job fail. Those who have the requisite skills work on Wall Street, where they can earn a lot more.
They will have an additional layer of complexity when the 777X finally takes to the skies, with its folding wingtips. The wingspan is too wide for most conventional taxiways, so they will have to see from the control tower if the wingtips have correctly deployed.
It's going to be fun. Not a job you'd get me to do in a thousand years.
'But they are well paid!' goes up the cry. Not actually that well. Like train drivers, bus drivers and airline pilots they have tremendous responsibility, their pay reflects that, and they don't earn that much more than train drivers, despite handling the safety of a lot more pax per day.
It takes a special kind of mind to be an ATCO. I'd be hopeless at it. Both by inclination and education, I'm an analytical thinker, trained to take a complex problem, and separate it out into things which can be solved and solve them. ATC requires multi-taskers, and most people can't do that in the depth that is required. Most people who apply for the job fail. Those who have the requisite skills work on Wall Street, where they can earn a lot more.
They will have an additional layer of complexity when the 777X finally takes to the skies, with its folding wingtips. The wingspan is too wide for most conventional taxiways, so they will have to see from the control tower if the wingtips have correctly deployed.
It's going to be fun. Not a job you'd get me to do in a thousand years.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
USA feeling the pinch ...
"Oh dear. What a pity."
US air fares and hotel rates slump one month ahead of World Cup kick-off
Football fan or not, travel to the US during the 2026 Men’s World Cup is getting cheaper by the day. One month ahead of the Fifa tournament – which is also being hosted by Canada and Mexico – The Independent has found air fares at well below normal summer levels. Hotel rates are sinking, too.
Travellers who have no interest in the football tournament can benefit from soft demand that has been attributed to tougher border controls and geopolitical uncertainty.
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 118
From: USA
Really ? "Another reason not to fly to the US" ? I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny or are just another hopelessly marooned America hater.
First of all, you will NOT be hassled by ICE. You just won't...unless you waded across the Rio Grande in the middle of the night with no required documents and then disappeared into US society evading CBP...to do heaven knows what. The Democrats would welcome you so you'd have that going for you which appears to provide a great level of protection.
[No one batted an eye when Chairman Barack deported 3.1 million people in his terms in office but he's Chairman Barack..a messiah and all that]
And the ATC system here appears to be handling airspace containing more flying than anywhere on this planet. In need of tweaking ? Absolutely (name a human-created system that doesn't require tweaking). And they've been talking about the need for that since I began flying in the mid 1960s. In the meantime, the system seems to be accommodating the load and maybe this administration will finally implement some needed changes. Or maybe not. I don't know and neither do you.
In the meantime, I strongly suggest you absolutely avoid coming here for any reason. I wouldn't want you to be incapacitated by a raging fear that you appear to experience at the mere thought of entering US airspace.
Joined: Feb 2017
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 547
Likes: 190
From: Sydney
Totally not interested in wading into the political discussions that will no doubt ensue but wanted to take up some of the comments the OP made about ATC and the type of job they do.
I had the opportunity to sit down next to a radar controller recently while they were on the job and was blown away by their multitasking ability and how they could hold information and situational awareness.
On the radio you often have long silences and delays in responses or get a 'standby' and I used to imagine they needed the time to put down their coffee cup, take their feet of the table and get organised and that their "sorry you were in with a ground station, say again" meant they weren't paying attention to your call.
I had no idea how much time they spent liasing with other controllers/towers etc behind the scene which explained a lot of the dead air and standbys you get.
I was most stunned though by how they could be having a thoughtful conversation with me while aircraft were making calls in the background (sometimes multiple consectutive calls when people hit the button near the same time) and they would pause mid sentence with me and pass instructions to each aircraft, sometimes giving quite complicated and thoughtful calls - to change speed, offer route changes etc and then explain to me what was going on ("yeah see how ABC is catching DEF so if I can slow down ABC by 20 knots they will maintain separation until they clear XYZ who is going to climb in a minute and RST is going to want to get an early descent so this will make it easier for that to happen in about 5 minutes" they then suddenly stop again with me, hit a button and call the controller on the next sector saying "can I descend GHI into your airspace after postion X?" and then they continue on with our previous conversation while drawing a line on the screen to calculate when someone else will reach another position...
I was amazed. I gained new respect for them. Another pilot with us asked later, are you guys gamers? Several nodded.
non political interlude concluded.
I had the opportunity to sit down next to a radar controller recently while they were on the job and was blown away by their multitasking ability and how they could hold information and situational awareness.
On the radio you often have long silences and delays in responses or get a 'standby' and I used to imagine they needed the time to put down their coffee cup, take their feet of the table and get organised and that their "sorry you were in with a ground station, say again" meant they weren't paying attention to your call.
I had no idea how much time they spent liasing with other controllers/towers etc behind the scene which explained a lot of the dead air and standbys you get.
I was most stunned though by how they could be having a thoughtful conversation with me while aircraft were making calls in the background (sometimes multiple consectutive calls when people hit the button near the same time) and they would pause mid sentence with me and pass instructions to each aircraft, sometimes giving quite complicated and thoughtful calls - to change speed, offer route changes etc and then explain to me what was going on ("yeah see how ABC is catching DEF so if I can slow down ABC by 20 knots they will maintain separation until they clear XYZ who is going to climb in a minute and RST is going to want to get an early descent so this will make it easier for that to happen in about 5 minutes" they then suddenly stop again with me, hit a button and call the controller on the next sector saying "can I descend GHI into your airspace after postion X?" and then they continue on with our previous conversation while drawing a line on the screen to calculate when someone else will reach another position...
I was amazed. I gained new respect for them. Another pilot with us asked later, are you guys gamers? Several nodded.
non political interlude concluded.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 222
Likes: 370
From: UK
'But they are well paid!' goes up the cry. Not actually that well. Like train drivers, bus drivers and airline pilots they have tremendous responsibility, their pay reflects that, and they don't earn that much more than train drivers, despite handling the safety of a lot more pax per day.
One of the questions the senior managers had actually asked themselves was "what is the justification for managers being paid more than, say, machinists or painters?".
The analogy that they used was: "Why is an airline pilot, carrying just 100 people between London and Glasgow paid so much more than a train driver on the same route carrying 1000 people?"
And they did come up with a rational justification.
Spoiler
That company, like so much of UK manufacturing is, of course, now a supermarket car park.
Son of Slot
Super Senior Moderator
Super Senior Moderator
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,048
Likes: 615
From: London
Totally not interested in wading into the political discussions that will no doubt ensue
Thank you jonkster for a most interesting sidelight on ATC.
Thank you paulross for an explanation that I have not heard before.
Neither post was thread drift.
Joined: Apr 2008
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 611
Likes: 249
From: on the ground
Really ? "Another reason not to fly to the US" ? I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny or are just another hopelessly marooned America hater.
First of all, you will NOT be hassled by ICE. You just won't...unless you waded across the Rio Grande in the middle of the night with no required documents and then disappeared into US society evading CBP...to do heaven knows what.
First of all, you will NOT be hassled by ICE. You just won't...unless you waded across the Rio Grande in the middle of the night with no required documents and then disappeared into US society evading CBP...to do heaven knows what.
Obviously not.
Joined: Jan 2009
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 291
Likes: 128
From: Oxon
A friend of mine from work travels to the USA 3 times a year to the west coast, direct from LHR, on a UK passport, and never once has she had any issues.
Just to add, I have asked her this specific question too, and so far, all ok
Just to add, I have asked her this specific question too, and so far, all ok
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 340
Likes: 22
From: On BA58/59
Agree with Helol
Two weeks ago entered the US in Atlanta with UK passport having departed Cape Town on the CPT-ATL Delta direct flight
I truly wondered what all the pre-fuss was about as it was nothing but efficient and stress free
Two weeks ago entered the US in Atlanta with UK passport having departed Cape Town on the CPT-ATL Delta direct flight
I truly wondered what all the pre-fuss was about as it was nothing but efficient and stress free
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 312
From: UK and Italy
Whenever a citizen of their country is hassled by ICE, this is headline news in the newspapers of their country. They may be only dozens or hundreds, but they are bad publicity for the Trump Presidency. Especially when children are separated from their parents.
This has happened to UK parents and UK kids. I don't believe it has to Irish citizens, yet. The UK citizens were extensively reported in UK newspapers. After several days detention , they were released without being charged,
Tourism to the US is way down. You may put this down to bad publicity in foreign countries, but it is real. How much is down to ICE, who will not hassle me, according to your narrative, and how much down to foreign press? Only time will tell.
This has happened to UK parents and UK kids. I don't believe it has to Irish citizens, yet. The UK citizens were extensively reported in UK newspapers. After several days detention , they were released without being charged,
Tourism to the US is way down. You may put this down to bad publicity in foreign countries, but it is real. How much is down to ICE, who will not hassle me, according to your narrative, and how much down to foreign press? Only time will tell.
Last edited by justapax; 12th May 2026 at 20:38.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,447
Likes: 208
From: Location: Location!
Curiously enough, I was talking about this subject only yesterday with my nephew who lives in Wellington NZ but is currently in UK. Having originally booked his flight to UK with Emirates, the first hardware started flying over the Gulf only two hours later and he rebooked Delta to LA and Virgin Atlantic to UK. Knowing what a pain it used to be even for Air NZ passengers simply transiting through LA, I asked how the current experience had been and he said that he could not believe how simple and straightforward it had been.
As regular visitors to the US, my wife and I opted to benefit from the Global Entry scheme a few years ago and cannot believe how much it helps, both with international and domestic national flights in the USA. Indeed, as I mentioned on the very similar thread late last year entitled Going into USA I have gone from aircraft door to my Chevrolet Suburban ride in as little as 10 minutes after arriving in the USA - in an A380.
Jack
As regular visitors to the US, my wife and I opted to benefit from the Global Entry scheme a few years ago and cannot believe how much it helps, both with international and domestic national flights in the USA. Indeed, as I mentioned on the very similar thread late last year entitled Going into USA I have gone from aircraft door to my Chevrolet Suburban ride in as little as 10 minutes after arriving in the USA - in an A380.
Jack
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
As the US hospitality world is saying that bookings related to the world cup are nowhere near predictions, that should make entry easier in the next couple of months. If we knew entry numbers for, say, March and April compared to last year, it might be possible to get a view on the overall numbers entering. These numbers may, or may not, have anything to do with the way that the USA is currently perceived - certainly in Western Europe.
Of more than 200 hotels surveyed across the 11 U.S. host cities, nearly 80% said hotel bookings are tracking below initial forecasts, a new report from the American Hotel and Lodging Association (AHLA) found. Though FIFA data shows more than five million tickets have already been booked for the event, “indicators suggest the anticipated economic lift may fall short of expectations,” the report said.
Most respondents noted trouble with overseas visitors obtaining visas, in addition to other geopolitical challenges, as the primary factors slowing down travel demand. Other U.S. hotels said FIFA created “an artificial early demand signal” with an overcommitment to hotel blocks. In March, FIFA exercised an opt-out clause in its contract and cancelled thousands of hotel rooms in all 16 of the World Cup host cities, including Philadelphia and Dallas, to accommodate shifting demand.
Most respondents noted trouble with overseas visitors obtaining visas, in addition to other geopolitical challenges, as the primary factors slowing down travel demand. Other U.S. hotels said FIFA created “an artificial early demand signal” with an overcommitment to hotel blocks. In March, FIFA exercised an opt-out clause in its contract and cancelled thousands of hotel rooms in all 16 of the World Cup host cities, including Philadelphia and Dallas, to accommodate shifting demand.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
As regular visitors to the US, my wife and I opted to benefit from the Global Entry scheme a few years ago and cannot believe how much it helps, both with international and domestic national flights in the USA. Indeed, as I mentioned on the very similar thread late last year entitled Going into USA I have gone from aircraft door to my Chevrolet Suburban ride in as little as 10 minutes after arriving in the USA - in an A380.
Jack
Jack
Joined: Oct 2018
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,217
Likes: 1,649
From: Ferrara
I have been traveling to and from the USA for over 50 years. I have had some good experiences with US Border Control and some really bad ones (for no discernable reason); the majority have been so-so. To me the biggest problem is the attitude of the staff - they are generally brusque, unsmiling and border on rude. You are not made to feel welcome at all. At the end of a long flight this is just another thing you don't need. Almost everyone I know who travels there regulalry has the same complaint and that includes a large number of US citizens.
It's not as bad as Russia but that's a low bar
It's not as bad as Russia but that's a low bar
Joined: Apr 2004
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 186
From: Dorset UK
Went to the USA last October via Atlanta. No problems at all.
When in Memphis we did come across Trumps National Guard on Beale Street. Had to pay $5 to be searched before entering on the Friday evening.
Saturday and Sunday was all open, they had gone home.
The day after we left there was a shooter in Atlanta airport but the police got him before he fired a shot.
When in Memphis we did come across Trumps National Guard on Beale Street. Had to pay $5 to be searched before entering on the Friday evening.
Saturday and Sunday was all open, they had gone home.
The day after we left there was a shooter in Atlanta airport but the police got him before he fired a shot.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,695
Likes: 2,033
From: Reading, UK
I have been traveling to and from the USA for over 50 years. I have had some good experiences with US Border Control and some really bad ones (for no discernable reason); the majority have been so-so. To me the biggest problem is the attitude of the staff - they are generally brusque, unsmiling and border on rude. You are not made to feel welcome at all. At the end of a long flight this is just another thing you don't need. Almost everyone I know who travels there regulalry has the same complaint and that includes a large number of US citizens.
It's not as bad as Russia but that's a low bar
It's not as bad as Russia but that's a low bar
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 482
Likes: 13
From: Luton
I’ve never had a bad experience flying into the US, had a few where they never smiled, get 20 questions followed by a grunt and my passport handed back and sent on my way.
I hate flying into Kennedy it takes ages to get to the front of the queue, the last time there was only 3 of the desks open, we were nearly at the front when 2 of them just get up and clear off, presumably it was lunch break time, even though no one replaced them for 15 minutes!
The best one was a few years ago, my daughter and I flew into Atlanta and then connecting to Austin Texas. The Immigration guy asked us where we were staying, I told him we were flying onto Austin, he said you don’t want to go there, you get shot there!
I hate flying into Kennedy it takes ages to get to the front of the queue, the last time there was only 3 of the desks open, we were nearly at the front when 2 of them just get up and clear off, presumably it was lunch break time, even though no one replaced them for 15 minutes!
The best one was a few years ago, my daughter and I flew into Atlanta and then connecting to Austin Texas. The Immigration guy asked us where we were staying, I told him we were flying onto Austin, he said you don’t want to go there, you get shot there!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 66
From: Chedburgh, Bury St.Edmunds
Too old now, but always used to smile at the guy behind the desk, say 'good to be back'. He would look at my friend and I , say 'you guys goin' to Oshkosh' [we had the shirts] we affirmed, and that was that!.