False Captain flying airliners and no-one noticed?

[BonnieLass]

This individual flew for Garuda as an F/O but then "spread his wings" and became a "false" Captain, flying for airlines across Europe and beyond, including Eurowings

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/sicher...europa/flmgjqe

(The article is in German, so translation will be required if necessary)

How did he manage to escape the licence and qualifications checks?

Just on a curiosity basis, how often does this actually happen?

[artee]

Originally Posted by BonnieLass

This individual flew for Garuda as an F/O but then "spread his wings" and became a "false" Captain, flying for airlines across Europe and beyond, including Eurowings

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/sicher...europa/flmgjqe

(The article is in German, so translation will be required if necessary)

How did he manage to escape the licence and qualifications checks?

Just on a curiosity basis, how often does this actually happen?

They just need to wear a big watch

[longer ron]

Originally Posted by BonnieLass

How did he manage to escape the licence and qualifications checks?

Just on a curiosity basis, how often does this actually happen?

It has been happening since professional Flying Licences were introduced,the problem does get mentioned in at least a few pilot autobios.

[ShyTorque]

If you would like a good read, search Rotor-heads for “How NOT to become a police helicopter pilot”.

These people are out there!

[BonnieLass]

Originally Posted by longer ron

It has been happening since professional Flying Licences were introduced,the problem does get mentioned in at least a few pilot autobios.

So if that is the case, how is it possible to stop someone adding the extra bar to their epaulette?

Are airlines so lax on their checks that they routinely allow people to fly in positions that they are not qualified to do....when I changed job to driving artics for a living I had to show my employer all required paperwork confirming that I had taken all the correct tests and had all the correct paperwork....is that not done as you move through the ranks of aircrew too? I am fairly sure that in the maritime world, bridge crew have to work up the ranks and have all the exams and paperwork etc to show for it too.

If the worst scenario came about and a false Captain was discovered to be in the cockpit and lives were lost....would the airline be, at the very least, severely reprimanded over its paper trails...or is it just so commonplace that nothing would be done?

I seem to remember something about a flight in Alaska? where the flight was diverted cos the pilot didn't know how to land (or something similar in situation)...who does that and thinks that they can get away with it?

As a pax you sort of expect that those up in the cockpit are fully qualified to be there and that they know what they are doing.....or are pax expectations too high?

The old chestnut of "lessons will be learnt" that will never be learnt again.

[BonnieLass]

Originally Posted by ShyTorque

If you would like a good read, search Rotor-heads for “How NOT to become a police helicopter pilot”.

These people are out there!

I actually find that terrifying....knowing that there are people flying who are not qualified to do so

Tbh flying beyond your qualification level is, to me at least, as dangerous as flying whilst under the influence of drink or illicit substances. It beggars belief that people can get away with it so apparently easily.

[Dave Gittins]

I suspect you mean in Colorado a couple of years ago where the relatively junior captain was not "cleared" under their rules to land at an airfield where visibility was poor, but still OK for the aeroplane and amore senior captain.

Al the procedures were followed safely (unlike with fake captains), Whether or not the flight should ever have been dispatched depends what TAF said.

[redsnail]

When you join a company you are supposed to bring your documents and some insist on you bringing your log book. If you have fake docs, then the truth is harder to find. Although, the licensing authority should query something like an A320 endorsement going on a PPL.
I know of one person who's job offer was retracted after it was found he lied about his experience.
He had claimed to have flown for a particular company in the Kimberley, Australia. The prospective company had just employed the old company's chief pilot. He was asked about Bloggs, the reply was "never heard of him". When the liar was asked about the specifics, he 'fessed up to lying and he lost the job. No idea if any punitive measures were taken. He had the qualifications, just not the experience.

Most of the time, "Walter Mittys" are found during simulator checks and fired.

[Less Hair]

It is very concerning to have a crew and planeload of passengers relying on somebody without the proper qualifications. He does not look like making the right decisions? Networked databases should be able to prevent this criminal behaviour?

[Uplinker]

Normally a quick check with whichever ATO (allegedly) awarded the LHS qualification and with the applicant's previous employer would show up the liars ?

I thought that would be routine ?

[Chesty Morgan]

Ironically there are some properly qualified pilots who probably shouldn't be

[ZFT]

Originally Posted by Uplinker

Normally a quick check with whichever ATO (allegedly) awarded the LHS qualification and with the applicant's previous employer would show up the liars ?

I thought that would be routine ?

I was the AM of an ATO for 18 years and I can count on one hand the number of times we were contacted to check.

[Uplinker]

That's comforting...

So what the hell are these HR goons actually doing all day in the office ? Other than making older experienced pilots jump through all the hoops and tests that young cadets with no experience and no proven record have to do, and rejecting the older experienced ones when they don't perform as well in stupid irrelevant tests that HR thinks pilots should be able to do.

[DaveReidUK]

[Asturias56]

"It has been happening since professional Flying Licences were introduced,the problem does get mentioned in at least a few pilot autobios."

IIRC there was guy who flew for well over 10 years for SAS and reached Senior Captain and had no qualifications whatsoever - I suppose you could say he could clearly do the job.

It happens in all walks of life. Not that long ago a VERY senior person at a major financial company quietly "retired" - one of junior their junior auditors ran a check on some of the Board and found one had very few of the financial qualifications he claimed to have.

[BonnieLass]

The individual in the article who worked for Avion Express in Lithuania and who embarked on what can only be described as a highly dangerous way of working within several other airlines - yes I realise that he is a qualified F/O but that does not make him qualified to call himself Captain without him taking the required steps to reach that goal officially - and his behaviour, from what has been said in the thread, seems to be the tip of a very unpleasant iceberg

I always thought....obviously incorrectly...that all flightcrew were checked thoroughly and on a regular basis to ensure that they were who they said they were and had the right paperwork etc, but I guess it is all too easy to go buy a uniform with the right number of bars on the epaulettes, sort out DIY documentation and walk into a job flying people (or freight) all over the place and get away with it.

Looking at it from the properly qualified flightcrew side, I can only imagine the anger that they may have when finding out that the man or woman they sat beside in the cockpit was a total fraud and seemingly managed to get away with that fraud for a long time before, by chance, being caught. Legitimate flightcrew go through so much training, often at immense cost and they, literally, earn their stripes only to find someone who bypassed the earning part has been working and socialising amongst them. It has to be infuriating.

Maybe pax should ask to see the flightcrew's credentials in future then.....since it appears to be so commonplace that the people pax are meant to trust might not be quite what they should be

[Asturias56]

Slippery slope tho'

"Excuse me Sir, you claim to be an OAP. Can I see your birth certificate, and a certified DNA report proving you are who you say you are? Then we'll let you have the 10% discount on this cinema seat"

There is a world of jobs-worths who would thing they'd reached heaven.

[BonnieLass]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Slippery slope tho'

"Excuse me Sir, you claim to be an OAP. Can I see your birth certificate, and a certified DNA report proving you are who you say you are? Then we'll let you have the 10% discount on this cinema seat"

There is a world of jobs-worths who would thing they'd reached heaven.

I absolutely get your point....

The issue here is that anyone call can themselves whatever they want to be and some step into that job without the required qualifications and more through luck than judgement, they are caught before anything bad happens.......as per another thread, you can be a fraudulent war hero or someone like that but that is unlikely to physically hurt anyone, they are not in a position where they have the lives of others in their hands - so to speak. Whereas a fraudulent Captain (or just a fraudulent pilot of any category) does have lives in their hands and the "vehicle", namely an aircraft, is sufficiently high enough off the ground that if they make a wrong move at 38000ft due to being a fraud, the outcome is always going to be catastrophic compared to a faked driver or ship captain where you are on terra firma level and there are ways and means of getting to you before it gets too far......aboard an aircraft you are far more vulnerable to the exploits of a fake behind the controls since it is not possible to be flagged to stop and explain your actions or behaviour like you can with a car with an unlicenced driver at the wheel.

I do have to wonder if actual bona fide pilots get a gut feeling that something is "off" with the person sat beside them occasionally...apart from paperwork checks and employment history checks, how do airlines actually know 100% for sure that they are employing legitimate people, getting references from past employers is probably the best way to find a fraud, but do airlines request those on a regular basis and wait for the response, or are they guilty of taking the word of their potential employee too often?

The faked pilots sat beside the bone fide pilots problem is a different situation to most other Mitty situations as there is far more to lose and the end result is going to be far more catastrophic should that fake pilot stuff things up so badly that the bone fide pilot alongside is unable to reverse things by virtue of being 30000ft or more in the air and no-one can help rescue you up there.

[ShyTorque]

Let’s not forget that such people can even bluff their way into the role of Chancellor of the Exchequer.

[Hydromet]

as per another thread, you can be a fraudulent war hero or someone like that but that is unlikely to physically hurt anyone, they are not in a position where they have the lives of others in their hands - so to speak.

In the Walts thread I wrote of a former colleague who falsely claimed previous military experience. His claimed experience included using explosives for demolition. He managed to put some large pieces of concrete onto Anzac Parade, a main road in Sydney, miraculously not hitting anyone.
I take your point though, few of these frauds cane take out several hundred people in one stroke as an unqualified pilot can.