Pilot essentially refusing to fly due to tech issue...how common is this?
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From: Near SOU
Pilot essentially refusing to fly due to tech issue...how common is this?
This incident happened in April 2024 and it isn't something that I have seen happen myself but I am wondering if it is actually commonplace for a pilot to refuse to fly an aircraft and what would be the penalty for that pilot, if any, for actually refusing to fly?
The flight had already been delayed from LAX to Hawaii in April 2024. The pilot then used the PA system to relay his thoughts and ultimately his decision not to fly the aircraft due to a technical issue that American Airlines had informed him would be OK to fly and that part(s) would be replaced once back in LAX. This pilot essentially expressed his gut feeling that the aircraft was troubling him and that the assurances he had received from AA did not make him comfortable.
This was filmed onboard at the time, with the pilot's announcement
Speaking personally I am with the pilot 100%, if he is nervous or uncomfortable despite assurances from the company that the aircraft was serviceable then he was absolutely right to refuse the aircraft, I would like to hope that most pax and crew would feel the same way. The old addage of better safe than sorry. The fact that he spoke out and informed the pax that he was unhappy with the aircraft was refreshingly honest and not something I have heard of before.
What would the potential penalties be for a pilot in this sort of situation, would the company take a dim view of it or would they back him or her 100%?
To the pilots here, have you ever found yourself in this sort of situation, or indeed actually done the same as this pilot, and decided not to fly a specific aircraft due to unease or discomfort knowing something was not right?
The flight had already been delayed from LAX to Hawaii in April 2024. The pilot then used the PA system to relay his thoughts and ultimately his decision not to fly the aircraft due to a technical issue that American Airlines had informed him would be OK to fly and that part(s) would be replaced once back in LAX. This pilot essentially expressed his gut feeling that the aircraft was troubling him and that the assurances he had received from AA did not make him comfortable.
This was filmed onboard at the time, with the pilot's announcement
Speaking personally I am with the pilot 100%, if he is nervous or uncomfortable despite assurances from the company that the aircraft was serviceable then he was absolutely right to refuse the aircraft, I would like to hope that most pax and crew would feel the same way. The old addage of better safe than sorry. The fact that he spoke out and informed the pax that he was unhappy with the aircraft was refreshingly honest and not something I have heard of before.
What would the potential penalties be for a pilot in this sort of situation, would the company take a dim view of it or would they back him or her 100%?
To the pilots here, have you ever found yourself in this sort of situation, or indeed actually done the same as this pilot, and decided not to fly a specific aircraft due to unease or discomfort knowing something was not right?
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From: Hong Kong
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From: GA, USA
Most companies however are off the persuasion that If it’s legal you go.
So it takes a fairly serious set of circumstances to pull the plug on a ‘legal’ situation.
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From: Lost again...
My company's MEL says on the first page that, whilst the MEL lists items that may be inoperative for flight, the Commander has the absolute authority to decline to operate with a particular defect if they feel that it is unsafe or inappropriate to do so.
And yes - I have declined to operate with particular deferred defects on at least three occasions with nothing ever being said.
Eg: replacement part was on the shelf but client wanted to extend to the max deferrable time for their convenience. I declined to accept the aircraft with a defect that was actually a significant operational issue. It got fixed straight away and nothing was ever said to me about it.
Not sure that washing your dirty laundry in public by making such a PA announcement is the best way to go about it though. That's likely to get the Capt in more trouble than just declining to accept the ADD.
And yes - I have declined to operate with particular deferred defects on at least three occasions with nothing ever being said.
Eg: replacement part was on the shelf but client wanted to extend to the max deferrable time for their convenience. I declined to accept the aircraft with a defect that was actually a significant operational issue. It got fixed straight away and nothing was ever said to me about it.
Not sure that washing your dirty laundry in public by making such a PA announcement is the best way to go about it though. That's likely to get the Capt in more trouble than just declining to accept the ADD.
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From: 350/3 Compton
In my experience with a large UK airline, the captain’s decision is final and there is no jeopardy for a decision taken in good faith. On my command line-check, I discovered that the aircraft had been cleared to fly without a certain required action having been carried out at base. I declined to fly until the correct action had been taken, which delayed the flight. I passed the check-ride!
Conversely, I was given an aircraft down-route, that had been “snagged” for ‘seat-belt signs will not extinguish’. This was not in the MEL and was theoretically a stopper that would have required a new switch being flown out to the Caribbean. Further discussion disclosed that the part had a 30-day delivery lead-time!
Much as I fancied a month on the beach, I couldn’t see any safety issue with getting airborne, so the snag was signed off as ‘ground tested, no fault found’ and it (surprisingly) recurred at top of climb!
Many ways of skinning a proverbial cat.
Mog
Conversely, I was given an aircraft down-route, that had been “snagged” for ‘seat-belt signs will not extinguish’. This was not in the MEL and was theoretically a stopper that would have required a new switch being flown out to the Caribbean. Further discussion disclosed that the part had a 30-day delivery lead-time!
Much as I fancied a month on the beach, I couldn’t see any safety issue with getting airborne, so the snag was signed off as ‘ground tested, no fault found’ and it (surprisingly) recurred at top of climb!
Many ways of skinning a proverbial cat.
Mog
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From: IRS NAV ONLY
Exactly. Refusing an airplane that is legal to fly by the MEL is one thing (been there, done that, no reprecussions), but going into deep technical details in the PA, alongside with publicly talking about disagreeing with the company... not the best way of dealing with it.
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From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=P8pihdksUHk&si=t_GX3ubmBvZ2CDgB
The P.I.C., Has the ultimate responsibility for the flight he/is in command of. Therefore, the PIC must have the ultimate authority.
As far as legalities are concerned. Just because it's legal, doesn't always mean it is safe. Take minimum fuel requirements for example. Try flying around some areas Africa for example with min fuel. If you make a habit of it, you would have come unstuck, in my day.
As far as legalities are concerned. Just because it's legal, doesn't always mean it is safe. Take minimum fuel requirements for example. Try flying around some areas Africa for example with min fuel. If you make a habit of it, you would have come unstuck, in my day.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
I rejected an aircraft recently. Maintenance said that the aircraft was ok. I boarded the aircraft and immediately rejected it because of a foul odour and stains still present in spite of cleaning. Definitely not acceptable for passengers.
Wrote it up and there was no argument from the office.
Wrote it up and there was no argument from the office.
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From: Everett, WA
Probably worth noting that LAX to the Hawiian Islands is 180 minute ETOPS - there is literally nothing between the US mainland and the Hawiian Islands.
The ETOPS MEL is already more restrictive, but I can certainly understand taking an even more conservative stand when looking at a long, overwater flight with no alternates.
The ETOPS MEL is already more restrictive, but I can certainly understand taking an even more conservative stand when looking at a long, overwater flight with no alternates.
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From: N. Ireland
The captain has responsibility for all aspects of the operation of the flight and any reputable management will respect that. I certainly would in this case especially as it was ETOPs. If he had departed and things gone wrong, he would be the one in the dock and the company would not have supported him (assuming of course he survived)
However I do not think his PA was wise or professional. You will simply worry and frighten them unneccessarily by talking about things most of them won't understand such as oil pressure and fuel filters! Also putting a negative spin on the management may not be prudent either. I am long retired but in a case like this I would simply have told them what they need to know i.e we have a technical issue with one of the engines , sorry the flight is delayed ( cancelled or whatever). You don't know who is sitting down the back and it is easy to dig a hole for yourself!
However I do not think his PA was wise or professional. You will simply worry and frighten them unneccessarily by talking about things most of them won't understand such as oil pressure and fuel filters! Also putting a negative spin on the management may not be prudent either. I am long retired but in a case like this I would simply have told them what they need to know i.e we have a technical issue with one of the engines , sorry the flight is delayed ( cancelled or whatever). You don't know who is sitting down the back and it is easy to dig a hole for yourself!
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From: Near SOU
Thank you for all of the opinions and thoughts so far on this incident.
There is, as I suspected, more to this incident that might shed light on why the pilot said what he did in that announcement.
This is the actual account of what happened, and from the person who filmed it, and once you have read it, I think it is easy to see and understand why this pilot became so frustrated that he went itno so much detail in his announcement.....this was not the first plane that had issues on this specific flight, his patience with AA, its maintenance and the two aircraft given to him to fly that both had technical issues, was being sorely tested....
Pilot Cancels Flight To Hawaii Twice Because He 'Wasn't Really Feeling It' — And Passengers Applaud
Yes, possibly he did say too much but given the problems that he had already faced with the first aircraft and then having a potentially worse problem with the second aircraft, I think his frustration is totally understandable and if AA/AAmaintenance did not like his tone or the content of the announcement, well maybe they need to find out why this pilot was handed two unserviceable aircraft for a long distance, over water flight and perhaps look closer at themselves for the reason for their pilot being so vocal and honest.
There is, as I suspected, more to this incident that might shed light on why the pilot said what he did in that announcement.
This is the actual account of what happened, and from the person who filmed it, and once you have read it, I think it is easy to see and understand why this pilot became so frustrated that he went itno so much detail in his announcement.....this was not the first plane that had issues on this specific flight, his patience with AA, its maintenance and the two aircraft given to him to fly that both had technical issues, was being sorely tested....
Pilot Cancels Flight To Hawaii Twice Because He 'Wasn't Really Feeling It' — And Passengers Applaud
Yes, possibly he did say too much but given the problems that he had already faced with the first aircraft and then having a potentially worse problem with the second aircraft, I think his frustration is totally understandable and if AA/AAmaintenance did not like his tone or the content of the announcement, well maybe they need to find out why this pilot was handed two unserviceable aircraft for a long distance, over water flight and perhaps look closer at themselves for the reason for their pilot being so vocal and honest.
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From: by the seaside
Paragliding is a personal risk assessment but we also carry reserve parachutes. We do as much as possible to alleviate that risk and I’ve been trying to find a small drone which would give me a sounding of the air above take off. It will happen one day.
as to refusing an aircraft;
in the early days of BA I was flying with one of the first hamsters on the Trident..new on the fleet. It was in the days that the skipper often had to spend 5 mins reading through the tech log where we had pages of carry forwards. The aircraft was unserviceable and he refused it. The big engineering guns wearing lots of stripes descended upon the cockpit and in spite of the bullying he still refused. Then came GG the duty flight manager who tried the same tactic; at that time BEA management were ex WW2 and national service..apparently the worse we’re ex Shackletons although Hunters weren’t far behind. We were then sent to serve our duty time out on standby without a serviceable aircraft in Heathrow.
Had another ex Athens where the captains artificial horizon was US. The small standby was by his left knee and virtually invisible to me. Captain accepted the aircraft but had my AI switched to his position and left a gaping hole in the panel for me to look at for 5 hours. I would have liked to protest but one didn’t in those days.
Late 80s whilst we were waiting for delivery of the first MD11and had new pilots replacing the FEs on the DC10 I had one with a management pilot probably ZRH - ATL where we should have had a double crew in the winter but management fiddled the flight times. Taxying out after I had selected take off flaps we had an amber caution but didn’t know why, the panel operator wasn’t any use technically but the captain said we are going. After explaining the systems to him and not getting him to return to the gate I told him that I would stand on the brakes as I wasn’t going.
We returned twice to the gate; which involved refuelling and lots of engineers crawling over the aircraft to eventually find a loose contact behind one of the circuit breaker panels.
A few years later we lost an aircraft due to an electrical fire, I had two lots of cockpit electrical smoke caused by the landing light switch arcing and a friend burnt his hand after the emergency bus bar panel decided to burn.
Fortunately our maintenance was nearly perfect although I did refuse and ground a F100.
The aircraft had the air conditioning compressors under the cockpit and suffered occasionally from Icing. Madrid in summer and accelerating the engines had a massive vibration. Aborted and guessing the problem I turned the bleeds off..they shut off automatically above a throttle angle or rpm on take off then turned on after take off subject to certain conditions. Took off and after selecting the bleeds back on had a TVI engine 2 warning which was caused by one of the air conditioning compressors which I deselected. We re filed at 290 and continued to GVA. The engineers didn’t want to inspect the compressor and turned up in the flight planning room to bully me into accepting the aircraft (in front of all and sundry). In the end - the argument was in French to humiliate me- I said I would write in the tech log this aircraft is grounded until a competent engineer is found.
I must admit in persuading a skipper to accept an aircraft with a couple of engine gauges US - after a night stop and heavy rain in Scandinavia - water in the gauge lines; cleared in the climb and would have only been a problem if we lost an engine on take off wrt setting MCT.
as to refusing an aircraft;
in the early days of BA I was flying with one of the first hamsters on the Trident..new on the fleet. It was in the days that the skipper often had to spend 5 mins reading through the tech log where we had pages of carry forwards. The aircraft was unserviceable and he refused it. The big engineering guns wearing lots of stripes descended upon the cockpit and in spite of the bullying he still refused. Then came GG the duty flight manager who tried the same tactic; at that time BEA management were ex WW2 and national service..apparently the worse we’re ex Shackletons although Hunters weren’t far behind. We were then sent to serve our duty time out on standby without a serviceable aircraft in Heathrow.
Had another ex Athens where the captains artificial horizon was US. The small standby was by his left knee and virtually invisible to me. Captain accepted the aircraft but had my AI switched to his position and left a gaping hole in the panel for me to look at for 5 hours. I would have liked to protest but one didn’t in those days.
Late 80s whilst we were waiting for delivery of the first MD11and had new pilots replacing the FEs on the DC10 I had one with a management pilot probably ZRH - ATL where we should have had a double crew in the winter but management fiddled the flight times. Taxying out after I had selected take off flaps we had an amber caution but didn’t know why, the panel operator wasn’t any use technically but the captain said we are going. After explaining the systems to him and not getting him to return to the gate I told him that I would stand on the brakes as I wasn’t going.
We returned twice to the gate; which involved refuelling and lots of engineers crawling over the aircraft to eventually find a loose contact behind one of the circuit breaker panels.
A few years later we lost an aircraft due to an electrical fire, I had two lots of cockpit electrical smoke caused by the landing light switch arcing and a friend burnt his hand after the emergency bus bar panel decided to burn.
Fortunately our maintenance was nearly perfect although I did refuse and ground a F100.
The aircraft had the air conditioning compressors under the cockpit and suffered occasionally from Icing. Madrid in summer and accelerating the engines had a massive vibration. Aborted and guessing the problem I turned the bleeds off..they shut off automatically above a throttle angle or rpm on take off then turned on after take off subject to certain conditions. Took off and after selecting the bleeds back on had a TVI engine 2 warning which was caused by one of the air conditioning compressors which I deselected. We re filed at 290 and continued to GVA. The engineers didn’t want to inspect the compressor and turned up in the flight planning room to bully me into accepting the aircraft (in front of all and sundry). In the end - the argument was in French to humiliate me- I said I would write in the tech log this aircraft is grounded until a competent engineer is found.
I must admit in persuading a skipper to accept an aircraft with a couple of engine gauges US - after a night stop and heavy rain in Scandinavia - water in the gauge lines; cleared in the climb and would have only been a problem if we lost an engine on take off wrt setting MCT.
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From: New jersey
I had a similar issue at Andrews AFB (Home of Air Force 1) in the early 1990’s. I was in a C-141, and we had a maintenance issue. The only mechanics available happened to be part of the AF 1 Mx team. He gave me a half-hearted assesment of the issue and stated, it was a short flight to New Jersey, so it should be fine. I asked him, would that be an acceptable answer to the pilot of AF 1 in the same situation? He said, “No” so we walked off the jet.
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From: Europe
A typical case in which it might be legal to fly but completely unreasonable would be lack of serviceable lavatories.
If I'm Captain of a widebody aircraft fitted with 10 lavs but only 2 of them are serviceable, I might (assuming the MEL says it's good to go) think twice about whether it's a good idea to embark on a 12 hour long journe with 350 pax...
If I'm Captain of a widebody aircraft fitted with 10 lavs but only 2 of them are serviceable, I might (assuming the MEL says it's good to go) think twice about whether it's a good idea to embark on a 12 hour long journe with 350 pax...
Paxing All Over The World
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From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Paragliding is personal. I recall an event where they crashed (cause does not matter) and they both died. His friend's family did not sue.
If the Cpt says 'No' that is good enough for me. Yes, it may be frustrating and you lose money and time BUT too often, onlookers (including Pax) forget that they are still alive and safe on the ground.
If the Cpt says 'No' that is good enough for me. Yes, it may be frustrating and you lose money and time BUT too often, onlookers (including Pax) forget that they are still alive and safe on the ground.
Last edited by PAXboy; 6th August 2025 at 20:10.
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From: wiltshire
Yes or no for serviceability
Not quite the same , the reverse in fact, rectifying an aircraft at Gander many years ago I wasn't happy with the aircraft and wouldn't sign it up as serviceable but the Captin said he was happy with it and said he would sign it up as a green line entry.
Asked him to give me 15 minutes as I was going to get my gear off the plane if he was going to take it as I wasn't going to be on it, at this point tha Air engineer said that if the G/E was getting off so was he!
Captain decided to give me more time to fix it which I did and we all took off together with not another word said.
Asked him to give me 15 minutes as I was going to get my gear off the plane if he was going to take it as I wasn't going to be on it, at this point tha Air engineer said that if the G/E was getting off so was he!
Captain decided to give me more time to fix it which I did and we all took off together with not another word said.
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From: by the seaside
British Airtours 707 heavy landed into Heraklion; Olympus airlines engineer refused to sign it off so captain instructed one of the first officers to contact london - the old BEA who were new to Boeing operations rather than BOAC tech who had more than a decade operating them.
Dubious procedure to see if the two engines hanging off the bent wings leaked fuel.
Load the passengers and fly back to london.
Two damaged pylons - one with a sheared bolt iirc.
IIRC aircraft beyond repair.
luckily one of the engines didn’t go over the wing as happened at Chicago on a DC10.
Dubious procedure to see if the two engines hanging off the bent wings leaked fuel.
Load the passengers and fly back to london.
Two damaged pylons - one with a sheared bolt iirc.
IIRC aircraft beyond repair.
luckily one of the engines didn’t go over the wing as happened at Chicago on a DC10.
