Delays after pushback
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Swansea
Delays after pushback
Hi,
PPL/SLF here.
I haven't flown much for a while. First Covid interrupted, and now I've retired, so business travel has ended. Whew!
But in the limited leisure travel I've done recently, I've noticed something I don't recall happening previously - namely the aircraft pushing back from the gate on time or thereabouts, then parking up somewhere and waiting for a slot. For a long time. It happened to my wife and I leaving LHR on a BA flight to Italy a couple of weeks ago, was about to happen on the return flight until an unexpectedly early slot came through, and has happened to a friend returning to the UK from the Canaries a few weeks ago. Both the friend and my wife and I were parked up for longer that we were in the air! Bad enough for an Italian flight but from The Canaries?
My memory is that delays of this magnitude would have previously involved passengers waiting in Departures, or at the gate, Why have things changed? Money? Gate charges? Avoiding compo somehow?
I'm now flying solely for leisure. The prospect of four hours in a cigar tube staring at the outside of airport buildings is enough to to make me abandon it altogether and holiday in the UK or take a car to the Continent..
Curious as to what's happened, really.
Nick
PPL/SLF here.
I haven't flown much for a while. First Covid interrupted, and now I've retired, so business travel has ended. Whew!
But in the limited leisure travel I've done recently, I've noticed something I don't recall happening previously - namely the aircraft pushing back from the gate on time or thereabouts, then parking up somewhere and waiting for a slot. For a long time. It happened to my wife and I leaving LHR on a BA flight to Italy a couple of weeks ago, was about to happen on the return flight until an unexpectedly early slot came through, and has happened to a friend returning to the UK from the Canaries a few weeks ago. Both the friend and my wife and I were parked up for longer that we were in the air! Bad enough for an Italian flight but from The Canaries?
My memory is that delays of this magnitude would have previously involved passengers waiting in Departures, or at the gate, Why have things changed? Money? Gate charges? Avoiding compo somehow?
I'm now flying solely for leisure. The prospect of four hours in a cigar tube staring at the outside of airport buildings is enough to to make me abandon it altogether and holiday in the UK or take a car to the Continent..
Curious as to what's happened, really.
Nick
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: UK
It's called push and park. We were doing it in the 1990s regularly.
Mostly it's to ensure there is a gate available for arriving aircraft but many of us considered it a con to fool the statistics for on time departures.
Mostly it's to ensure there is a gate available for arriving aircraft but many of us considered it a con to fool the statistics for on time departures.
Joined: Jan 2001
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Posts: 1,073
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From: Clarty Waters, UK
Happened to me last week in Gran Canaria. We were already running a couple of hours late departing, and after we did finally push back from the gate the aircraft just sat on the apron for 10-15 minutes. I must admit I was curious because I couldn't see any good reason why.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 30
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From: Scotland
I always suspected it was to "massage" departure times data to show fewer delays in the record books (departure time on timetables/schedules = pushback time, not take-off time). At the other end of the journey I'm also suspicious when I see ten or a dozen suitcases on the carousel within 5 minutes of arrival, followed by a 30-40 minute wait for the rest of them (which invariably seems to always include mine 😄
. The data will read "first bags delivered at "X"" and thus contractual obligations will have been (technically) met.
I hope I'm wrong but I'm extremely cynical about "business life and practice" in the UK (and elsewhere) these days. Honest reporting seems to no longer exist.
. The data will read "first bags delivered at "X"" and thus contractual obligations will have been (technically) met.I hope I'm wrong but I'm extremely cynical about "business life and practice" in the UK (and elsewhere) these days. Honest reporting seems to no longer exist.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
The flight times the airline publishes versus the actual ones are quite different. They are usually padded to allow for the inevitable delays operating at most major/popular airports.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Beyond the Blue Horizon
We had one before Christmas with BA at Manchester on shuttle to LHR connecting to Long Haul. Got an email night before cancelling our later departure so had to go on early flight. We boarded and were told there would be 2hr delay due to one of UK named storm.
I have yet to board and push back and wait, though have pushed and being delayed in taxi for an hour or so at JFK during Thunderstorm activity and that happened a few times when going through there. You know it’s going to be bad when Captain explains situation and you turn onto taxiway and see a seemingly endless line of A/C tail planes.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Cheers
Mr Mac
I have yet to board and push back and wait, though have pushed and being delayed in taxi for an hour or so at JFK during Thunderstorm activity and that happened a few times when going through there. You know it’s going to be bad when Captain explains situation and you turn onto taxiway and see a seemingly endless line of A/C tail planes.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Cheers
Mr Mac
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,695
Likes: 2,033
From: Reading, UK
The flight times the airline publishes versus the actual ones are quite different. They are usually padded to allow for the inevitable delays operating at most major/popular airports.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
Build in enough slack and you'll reduce the potential for delays.
But you'll also reduce the utilisation that you get from the fleet, and the bean-counters won't be happy (they never are ...).
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: UK
For me it's not Departure or push back times it's arrival and in the terminal time that's important for me.
At least 3 times I can remember we got across the Pond early due to the jet stream and had to wait at Gatwick for a suitable gate to be free...
At least 3 times I can remember we got across the Pond early due to the jet stream and had to wait at Gatwick for a suitable gate to be free...
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
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From: UK and Italy
While an aircraft is at the gate it's not burning fuel. Once it's pushed back, it is. How many millions of litres are burned waiting on the apron/taxiways just to make the on-time departure figures look good?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
The US doesn't have a CTOT system like what's offered at Eurocontrol. Sometimes you'll get a ground stop but most of the time, you just taxi out and wait with the engines running. That is costly.
UK/EU you'll wait in position assuming no one else wants the gate or you'll taxi to a remote hold, turn on the APU and shut down the engines. An A320's APU burns about 40kg of Avtur which is significantly less than the engines at idle.
UK/EU you'll wait in position assuming no one else wants the gate or you'll taxi to a remote hold, turn on the APU and shut down the engines. An A320's APU burns about 40kg of Avtur which is significantly less than the engines at idle.
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 312
From: UK and Italy
The US doesn't have a CTOT system like what's offered at Eurocontrol. Sometimes you'll get a ground stop but most of the time, you just taxi out and wait with the engines running. That is costly.
UK/EU you'll wait in position assuming no one else wants the gate or you'll taxi to a remote hold, turn on the APU and shut down the engines. An A320's APU burns about 40kg of Avtur which is significantly less than the engines at idle.
UK/EU you'll wait in position assuming no one else wants the gate or you'll taxi to a remote hold, turn on the APU and shut down the engines. An A320's APU burns about 40kg of Avtur which is significantly less than the engines at idle.
Son of Slot
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Joined: Feb 2013
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From: London
The Push-and-Wait is now a well established feature as DaveReidUK states - the accountants know ALL the numbers.
I recall a 45 min wait at JFK in the departure queue of a Friday evening. No parking up, just inching forward one by one to get to the active. A bit like the drive-in queue at a well known US fast food establishment.
I recall a 45 min wait at JFK in the departure queue of a Friday evening. No parking up, just inching forward one by one to get to the active. A bit like the drive-in queue at a well known US fast food establishment.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Some years ago, we were closed up and waiting for a long time at an airport not known for delays - CPT. My seat neighbour commented, "I expect we'll get pushed back to make an on time departure'. As it turned out, the a/c was tech and we were off to hotels. But at busy ports - Push-and-Wait is now a SOP.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
AVGAS is used in piston aircraft. (Aviation gasoline).
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: Ferrara
Joined: Apr 2003
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 10,576
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From: Northumberland
The flight times the airline publishes versus the actual ones are quite different. They are usually padded to allow for the inevitable delays operating at most major/popular airports.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
Now to the delays. There are airport slots and there's airways slots. The differences are like the queues to get in/out of a car park (airport slot) versus the traffic levels on a motorway (airways or CTOTs - Calculated Take off Time).
Anything can affect the airways. Weather enroute, traffic, lack of ATC, weather at departure/destination.
So you think, why board if we have a CTOT? They can change very quickly. The idea is we get you on board, then send a ready message to ATC. In UK/Europe, that goes to Eurocontrol and if possibly, you'll be released early and you can go. However, if you have to board every one, you'll miss it!
So why move? Well, the airline still needs that gate so you'll remote park to wait your turn.
If the gate is needed, push back and park remotely. This also releases resources such as tugs to go and do other things.
If it also happens to help the performance stats, well - happy days.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 164
From: U.K.
You often get the OTP myth but it’s pretty academic when the flight arrives late.
As others have said though, it frees up the gate and you aren’t reliant on the pushback crew as you’ve already pushed. And of course, the slot often comes forward or cancelled altogether and you are free to go at a moments notice.
Ultimately, it’s the quickest way to get you to your destination and for the airline to maintain its schedule.
As others have said though, it frees up the gate and you aren’t reliant on the pushback crew as you’ve already pushed. And of course, the slot often comes forward or cancelled altogether and you are free to go at a moments notice.
Ultimately, it’s the quickest way to get you to your destination and for the airline to maintain its schedule.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 424
Likes: 53
From: N . Daarset
Push and hold had been in for some time when I retired 16 yrs ago .
A very efficient idea .
Push on time [ hopefully] , delay to take off the attributed to Air traffic Control ... Those who manage can then hopefully improve things .
Gate freed up for arrivals ... How many times had we busted a gut to get in on time , then a long wait for a gate !
Pushback crew and tug freed up , again how many waits for a tug !
Gate staff freed up , and no herding cats when boarding delayed !
Park up somewhere near take off holding point , shut down . No more fuel use than on the gate with APU working ...... Slot comes forward [ It does happen } , ready to launch in 2 mins ..
USA , does not seem to do it [ plenty of gates ? ] . Certainly not for international flts ....... If V. strong tailwind and flight time so short as to arrive before airport open ...
Then delay is taken on the ground at gate in US.
Africa , Mid East , Far East ... go on time , else you won't get your place or flight level in the stream of a/c heading Europe way .
JFK congestion ... taxi up one runway down another , repeat .. Ops had some idea of taxi times , and thus taxi fuel planned . Aer Lingus Ops excellent , BA okish ..
Personal best 2hrs 11mins .... and yes she did taxi ok with 2 shut down no matter what the book said [ dare not try with 3 shutdown ] ,.. Others had to return to gate to refuel ...... That really upset ATC , trying to get a few from the outbound stream and weave them back to terminal !
Yes the on time performance figures are better , but all the above reasons out-way that .
rgds condor .
A very efficient idea .
Push on time [ hopefully] , delay to take off the attributed to Air traffic Control ... Those who manage can then hopefully improve things .
Gate freed up for arrivals ... How many times had we busted a gut to get in on time , then a long wait for a gate !
Pushback crew and tug freed up , again how many waits for a tug !
Gate staff freed up , and no herding cats when boarding delayed !
Park up somewhere near take off holding point , shut down . No more fuel use than on the gate with APU working ...... Slot comes forward [ It does happen } , ready to launch in 2 mins ..
USA , does not seem to do it [ plenty of gates ? ] . Certainly not for international flts ....... If V. strong tailwind and flight time so short as to arrive before airport open ...
Then delay is taken on the ground at gate in US.
Africa , Mid East , Far East ... go on time , else you won't get your place or flight level in the stream of a/c heading Europe way .
JFK congestion ... taxi up one runway down another , repeat .. Ops had some idea of taxi times , and thus taxi fuel planned . Aer Lingus Ops excellent , BA okish ..
Personal best 2hrs 11mins .... and yes she did taxi ok with 2 shut down no matter what the book said [ dare not try with 3 shutdown ] ,.. Others had to return to gate to refuel ...... That really upset ATC , trying to get a few from the outbound stream and weave them back to terminal !
Yes the on time performance figures are better , but all the above reasons out-way that .
rgds condor .