Comet and Trident memories

[justapax]

OK, we've done Viscount memories, and the VC10 has a website all of its own. So how about the Comet and Trident?

My main memory of the Comet at SVO was how small it was compared with its Soviet counterparts. The latter were mostly converted long-range bombers (I think the bombs travelled in greater comfort, however) and dwarved the Capitalist machine on the apron. The Comet was noisy, but not so noisy you couldn't shout at each other and be heard, and vibrated much less than a piston-engined aircraft. IIRC, the seats were half forward-facing and half rear-facing (the Trident definitely had this configuration) and there was a table in the middle which, as a family of two adults and three children, we often got.

The Trident I remember as being the puddle-jumper, flying Ankara - Istanbul - Athens - Rome - London, a journey I used to dread as it meant I was going back to school in England with compulsory Latin and cold baths. I used to count the days to the return journey. I have few memories of the actually flight itself, it was the anticipation which was the thing, but I still have the BEA bag that was my faithful companion on those journeys.

[ZFT]

Flew on 4s and 4Bs in the 60s and whilst time does distort memories, I wouldn't describe them as internally noisy A long time ago though.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I flew on a couple or more Dan Air Comets in the 80's (4B's ?) and apart from being somewhat tatty inside they didn't seem particularly noisy, though whilst taxiing with the engines being so close to the fuselage, the whine of differing power settings was more apparent than with newer aircraft. As to Tridents, I flew on a good many in and out of LHR with BEA, probably all the variants and as the engines were above and behind, the cabin noise was fine. They seemed very modern and futuristic back then.

[JEM60]

My first jet airliner flight ever was in an Ian Allen evening Air cruise in a Trident 2 from Heathrow. Cost £6,50!, Brilliant, club seating, down to Saltash in Devon and back. I asked for a flight deck visit, and, to my utter amazement, found myself on the Flight Deck 20 mins before landing, for the landing, [27R] and 20 mins after!!. Superb introduction to airliner flying.!!!. Day trip to Spanish Grand Prix on Dan-Air Comet. Starting up to return, all engines stopped, lights went out. Total silence. Voice from the back shouted 'it may be rubbish, but it's British rubbish!!' Hilarious laughter. Started up again. Great days, quite a few Flight Deck visits, including Concorde etc.!!

[pax britanica]

Flew on Danair 4B and 4C on inclusive tour trips Gatwick to Montpelier . The latter back then had a charming little airport with an outside 'departure lounge' which was after passing immigration and was pleasant little garden with some seats and little wooden gate which the staff opened to let you walk across the ramp to the plane.

Didn't strike me as noisy but I sat forward or on the engines on this trip.

Flew on several Trident trips -all BE/BA except Cyprus airways which was BEA in disguise. The T1 s were very short range as I recall Paris, Amsterdam and the like. Several T2 trips down the eastern med and several T3s which I thought a very good looking aircraft. Noisey on outside but not inside and I agree with the poster who said they were pretty modern for their day. The shorter body ones were very fast as I recall having the flight deck pointing out us overtaking DC9 and VC10s at some point.
Sadly as all British aircraft not built for a global market and probably could not have been produced in large quantities anyway.

[justapax]

Originally Posted by pax britanica

Sadly as all British aircraft not built for a global market and probably could not have been produced in large quantities anyway.

There was one exception, the Viscount, which was produced in large quantities and sold well on both sides of the Atlantic - a success story which was not to be repeated.

The jets could have been produced in large quantities, but several factors militated against this. The Comet 1 crashed and by the time the Comet 4 came along the market was already dominated by the Boeing 707. The VC10 was designed for 'hot and high' aeroports and was uneconomic on fuel on runs which didn't have this requirement, which were mostly low-volume, former-Empire destinations. But the real killer was BOAC, the Boeing Only Aircraft Corporation, which had a lot of design input into British aircraft but then went and bought Boeing anyway. On the other side of the Atlantic Boeing and Pan Am were arm in arm, but BOAC always had a stand-off relationship with British manufacturers.

[kenparry]

Another problem for the VC10 was that by the time it entered service, most of the "hot and high" runways had been lengthened to cope with the B707, so the take-off performance of the VC10 became irrelevant.

[Mr Mac]

I did a few trips on Comet 4B with Dan Air / Air Tours and BEA though not many maybe 4 or 5 in total mostly into Europe, and as others have said we often ended up with table seat as a family. They did feel quite narrow after the 707-320c which were like Justapax1 my chariot too and from school with BCAL. Trident flights were all on Trident 3, and the thing I seem to remember was noise externally, though not internally, and a steep take off angle. I remember on my first Trident flight the BA inflight magazine listed their then Fleet of all British made A/C, Comet, Trident, BAC 1-11, Vanguard, Viscount, Argosy with only the Sikorsky Helicopters for Channel Island route being none UK manufacture. Not sure on the date but the paper was Blue behind the silhouette's of the A/C, and if I was guessing it would be 1971 and it was down to Palma as we had bought a house / ruin on the island. New Blue Union Jack Livery outbound which looked very futuristic at the time, and old livery with BEA Red Square on return.

I managed to get a short cockpit visit both times accompanied my Father. Both crews were quite surprised when I started discussing long haul flying at age 11 on 707, and when my Father said I did this largely on my own they were even more surprised, though a member of CC did say that she could not bare to think of sending a child so far away from home at my age. It just seemed normal to me, as there were quite a group of us like Justapax 1 who did it. My BCAL bag disappeared years ago, along with log book alas.

It is funny what you remember with clarity with age, but other things just slide by unnoticed or remembered
Cheers
Mr Mac

[justapax]

Originally Posted by Mr Mac

My BCAL bag disappeared years ago, along with log book alas.

If I can find my BEA bag (it's somewhere in the garage) I'll bring it to the Bash which is now Saturday week, with my noise-cancelling headphones (for the train) and my laptop in it. I'll also bring a wheeled suitcase with the Nyetimber and canapés. Nearer the time I'll PM Saab Dastard for details of how many have PMme'd him saying they'll attend so I provide adequate First Class refreshments.

My BOAC Junior Jet Club booklet was 'tidied up' by my tidy mother many years ago, alas.

[Saintsman]

A tiny bit of thread drift. When the RAF Nimrods, obviously Comet based, were sent to be modified into the ill fated MRA4, one of the (very) many problems that were encountered, was that the new equipment was designed by a very accurate CAD system.

Unfortunately, the original aircraft were not. Amongst others, the fuselage wing mountings wouldn't align with the fuselage and there were other places half an inch difference between certain points, dependent on which fuselage was chosen.

Mind you, when originally built, they were built to last!

My one and only trip in the Nimrod resulted in me being airsick for 90% of a very long patrol...

[reggylater]

In ATC before moving on, I was fortunate to be offered a familiarisation flight on a Dan Air Comet. Great airline. Before we departed I asked why the fleet appeared to have differing expectations of where the initial turning point on the SID was. Hang on said the driver, all will become clear. After departure it was just as if someone had turned a tap on in the roof and water poured through the quilted headlining. Condensation said driver, we don’t really have an idea of exact position until the electrics have dried out. Later on in my “aviation career(?) “ I was on the flight deck of a Comet flown by Dan Air and we were called by ops to tell us that company traffic had burst a tyre a couple of hundred miles away but no replacement was available where they were. We were, therefore, required to drop our pax off at our original destination and pick up a wheel and tyre to rescue the sickened airframe before returning to pick up our original returning pax. Our very senior Captain didn’t blink an eye apart from a glance at the flight engineer sitting behind me and agreed to the plan despite it adding quite a lot to our duty day. Not like him at all. Nothing discussed on the flight deck apart from that and I was only a young lad. Cockpit gradient hadn’t even been invented..
Upon arrival at our original destination, inbound pax were unloaded and arrangements commenced to board the returns. At this point I asked.
All will become clear was an answer that I was familiar with. With all on board for our return trip and no sign of a spare wheel in either paper work or reality, it was time to start. After all these years, I can’t recall which of the donks refused but it did. A call to ops and we were relieved of the tyre run and told to try and fix it so that we could get back home. At this point the engineer got the front door opened and disappeared onto the apron with a massive sledge hammer which was always carried but I had had never seen in action before. The go button was pushed on the recalcitrant number but, once again, the starter stuck followed by a large bang from under the aircraft. On the third attempt, the “fix” worked and the starter was freed. We were on the way home but not before the engineer returned to the flight deck with a grin that was wider than I have seen since. Ops were told of our success and must have known what had gone on but I never heard anything more about it.
Great days Dan Air, thanks very much. Lots more stories but I had better not.

[PAXboy]

I missed the Comet era, either too young or living in another country.

First - and only - Trident was in Dec 75 LHR-HAM. I don't know if it was a Mk 2 or 3. The memorable bit was the experiment with rear facing seats. I was asked if I would participate and said yes. Filled in their form and said it was all fine - of course. No different from being in a train and not facing the direction of travel. Came back by train and Hovercraft on a circular route.

The next time I went LHR-HAM was in Mar 2019 in a 320neo. On disembarking, I asked to pop into the flight deck. The Left Hand Seat was very amused to hear about my previous landing there! The RHS had a polite smile as two oldies reminisced ...

[DaveReidUK]

I have a soft spot for the Trident, the first type I got my mitts on, both in the hangar and on the ramp.

Engine changes were always fun.

[pax britanica]

Justapax -yes of course you are right he Viscount did sell -over 400 examples- I think which was a lot for the time. It was a lovely aircraft to fly on -I cannot compare because i never flew on a recip powered one. th 1-11 didnt do badly but its too small a gainst the stretchable (almst indefinitely) DC 9s . And yes BOAC had a lot of US aircraft but they also had the Britannia Comet and VC10s -the Comet sold quite well geographically but in small numbers and was no match for the 707-DC8 combo. The VC10 lacked range of even the early 707s and was miles behind the fan engined B and C series altho much nicer to fly on.

[justapax]

Originally Posted by reggylater

Lots more stories but I had better not.

That only whets our appetites.

[blind pew]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

I have a soft spot for the Trident, the first type I got my mitts on, both in the hangar and on the ramp.

Engine changes were always fun.

Dave with your pedigree could you answer a mystery. T2 out of maintenance to Moscow..starter fault on return flight..only one in 6 years so travelling engineer and I worked on the start one engine, remove starter, fix blanking plate and replace dodgy starter ...good starter motor failed and errant engine.two duff starters....obviously imho some fault ex hangar. Nightstopped and maintrol sent out some starters and we flew back that evening. Any ideas?

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by blind pew

Dave with your pedigree could you answer a mystery. T2 out of maintenance to Moscow..starter fault on return flight..only one in 6 years so travelling engineer and I worked on the start one engine, remove starter, fix blanking plate and replace dodgy starter ...good starter motor failed and errant engine.two duff starters....obviously imho some fault ex hangar. Nightstopped and maintrol sent out some starters and we flew back that evening. Any ideas?

That doesn't ring any bells, though the starter-swap-to get-the-engine-running wasn't that uncommon. But two duff ones sounds like really bad luck.

I didn't get my hands on One-Elevens much, but I have a feeling the same technique was used on those.

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by Saintsman

A tiny bit of thread drift. When the RAF Nimrods, obviously Comet based, were sent to be modified into the ill fated MRA4, one of the (very) many problems that were encountered, was that the new equipment was designed by a very accurate CAD system.

Unfortunately, the original aircraft were not. Amongst others, the fuselage wing mountings wouldn't align with the fuselage and there were other places half an inch difference between certain points, dependent on which fuselage was chosen.

Mind you, when originally built, they were built to last!

My one and only trip in the Nimrod resulted in me being airsick for 90% of a very long patrol...

My one and only trip in Trident involved, or so it seemed, a very lethargic trundle down the runway at LHR and a resounding "thud ! " arrival at MAN.

As for the Comet, when stripping down the, in theory, last to be converted Nimrod at Waddington, as you say, "built to last".....virtually no corrosion on the fuselage shell....bomb bay door hinges on the other hand ! and memorable for finding somebody had, at some time, done their o'time calculations, in £ s.d and pencil ! just fwd of the rear px bulkhead.

[GrassRootsFlying]

I upset a co pilot once when we were left high and fast in the descent by stating , “It’s ok, I used to be on Tridents.”

[S.o.S.]

GrassRootsFlying I presume that's because Trident could slow down rapidly? Those big wings and, I also guess, she was a lot heavier than modern machines?