Delay due to Operational Reasons
Son of Slot
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I appreciate that the thread has drifted a little bit away from the original question and I thought about splitting the thread out. However, the 'war stories' do also explain the difficulties of explaining ... so please do carry on giving us something that amuses and explains.
Further to my Moscow adventure I will attempt to explain the complexity of a simple starter motor failure for the benefit of self loading, oxygen breathing and leaking freight.
It was in the 70s at the height of the Cold War where some of my mates were flying the pocket rocket through thunderstorms along the Berlin corridors with the real threat of being shot down if they strayed. It was also a time of extremely long ATC delays before continuous descent approaches were introduced. Moscow was a BOAC station with a BEA station manager, probably on his Tod, and we had a travelling spanner with a tool kit.
‘There was a performance limitation which was probably take off segment and we had refuelled for the return leg which is when the problem happened. After a brief trouble shooting which included finding engineering steps and try a manual operation of the starter we had to do a calculation of APU and single running engine expected fuel consumption, order a bowser before we could start. This process was repeated a second time including flight duty limitations and the possibility of only operating to Helsinki where we could night stop rather than sleeping on the aircraft. Station and the engineer communicated with London via telex which involved a journey to the bowels of Sheremetyevo and flight plans needed to be refiled. Each séjour took at least 20 minutes.
The captain stayed onboard where refreshments were served to the pax whilst I worked with our spanner on the top of some dodgy steps with the other copilot at the bottom; all of us dressed in woollen winter uniform and our famous raincoats with smugglers pockets. It was sleeting.
A triple engine start using one starter motor was considered but the captain wisely decided that even if it did work it wasn’t the wisest decision wrt flight safety. Fortunately Station managed to get us exceptional permission to land in the USSR, a bus was organised along with envelopes full of roubles and we were taken to a 4 star? Hôtel which mirrored some of the hotels I have stayed in in France in the 80s with regard to depravity. We were briefed on the BOAC chandeliers incident where the crew had searched for microphones, unscrewed the under carpet fixing plate and given rooms on different floors (male and female) with a babushka sitting at the end of each floor to stop us straying for a bit of home comfort.
The following day we were treated to the delights of a country which appeared to be under rationing but wearing uniforms we had a fabulous time seeing the sights.
None of the pax whinged as they understood the delights of air travel in that age.
It was in the 70s at the height of the Cold War where some of my mates were flying the pocket rocket through thunderstorms along the Berlin corridors with the real threat of being shot down if they strayed. It was also a time of extremely long ATC delays before continuous descent approaches were introduced. Moscow was a BOAC station with a BEA station manager, probably on his Tod, and we had a travelling spanner with a tool kit.
‘There was a performance limitation which was probably take off segment and we had refuelled for the return leg which is when the problem happened. After a brief trouble shooting which included finding engineering steps and try a manual operation of the starter we had to do a calculation of APU and single running engine expected fuel consumption, order a bowser before we could start. This process was repeated a second time including flight duty limitations and the possibility of only operating to Helsinki where we could night stop rather than sleeping on the aircraft. Station and the engineer communicated with London via telex which involved a journey to the bowels of Sheremetyevo and flight plans needed to be refiled. Each séjour took at least 20 minutes.
The captain stayed onboard where refreshments were served to the pax whilst I worked with our spanner on the top of some dodgy steps with the other copilot at the bottom; all of us dressed in woollen winter uniform and our famous raincoats with smugglers pockets. It was sleeting.
A triple engine start using one starter motor was considered but the captain wisely decided that even if it did work it wasn’t the wisest decision wrt flight safety. Fortunately Station managed to get us exceptional permission to land in the USSR, a bus was organised along with envelopes full of roubles and we were taken to a 4 star? Hôtel which mirrored some of the hotels I have stayed in in France in the 80s with regard to depravity. We were briefed on the BOAC chandeliers incident where the crew had searched for microphones, unscrewed the under carpet fixing plate and given rooms on different floors (male and female) with a babushka sitting at the end of each floor to stop us straying for a bit of home comfort.
The following day we were treated to the delights of a country which appeared to be under rationing but wearing uniforms we had a fabulous time seeing the sights.
None of the pax whinged as they understood the delights of air travel in that age.
Paxing All Over The World
I have been lucky over the years with only two long delays, both with simple reasons. Here is the first.
June 1990: I was returning from JNB on Sabena. It was a 743 and I was upstairs in Club, it was a daylight leaving around 07:00. We stopped at Kinshasa and then due direct to BRU, where I would connect to LHR.
Some hours into the long second sector, the Captain advised that Algeria had closed it's airspace to everyone and they did so when we were almost on their 'doorstep'. Consequently, we were going to have to go due West and cover a large part of the 'bulge'. This would mean a tech stop in Casablance for fuel and subsequent delayed arrival in BRU. As I was booked on the last out, I knew I would miss it and there were no onboard phones in those days to warn my girlfriend. She landed up going to LHR, where the flight arrived on time but finding out why I was not on it took until I got into the hotel room Sabena provided and could phone her.
At Casablanca, being unscheduled, we remained on board for the refuel. Just as we parked on a remote stand, a medium sized Police van rolled up and parked in the shade unde the wing to keep an eye on. It was the kind with two bench seats facing each other. The Police had a table between them and were playing cards. They were playing as they arrived, throught the refuel and as they drove away!
With the extended flight time, I was very lucky to be in Biz. The cabin service was distinctly average but the seat was big and comfy. I could take alcohol as I was not driving that night!
There was just one problem. In the row immediately in front of me, they had a babe in arms. Each time it screamed, she stuck a bottle in it's mouth. Inevitably there came the point at which the baby 'overflowed' at both ends ... As you will know, the Upper cabin in the 74 has the storage bins alongside the seats. Mother then proceeded to use this convenient flat surface to change baby. I reached for the call bell.
However, Sabena looked after us very well and I was on the first out the next morning.
So the explanation was simple and uncontrovertible as it will have cost Sabena a lot of money. But their handling of it meant that I used the same service again in the mid 1990s.
June 1990: I was returning from JNB on Sabena. It was a 743 and I was upstairs in Club, it was a daylight leaving around 07:00. We stopped at Kinshasa and then due direct to BRU, where I would connect to LHR.
Some hours into the long second sector, the Captain advised that Algeria had closed it's airspace to everyone and they did so when we were almost on their 'doorstep'. Consequently, we were going to have to go due West and cover a large part of the 'bulge'. This would mean a tech stop in Casablance for fuel and subsequent delayed arrival in BRU. As I was booked on the last out, I knew I would miss it and there were no onboard phones in those days to warn my girlfriend. She landed up going to LHR, where the flight arrived on time but finding out why I was not on it took until I got into the hotel room Sabena provided and could phone her.
At Casablanca, being unscheduled, we remained on board for the refuel. Just as we parked on a remote stand, a medium sized Police van rolled up and parked in the shade unde the wing to keep an eye on. It was the kind with two bench seats facing each other. The Police had a table between them and were playing cards. They were playing as they arrived, throught the refuel and as they drove away!
With the extended flight time, I was very lucky to be in Biz. The cabin service was distinctly average but the seat was big and comfy. I could take alcohol as I was not driving that night!
There was just one problem. In the row immediately in front of me, they had a babe in arms. Each time it screamed, she stuck a bottle in it's mouth. Inevitably there came the point at which the baby 'overflowed' at both ends ... As you will know, the Upper cabin in the 74 has the storage bins alongside the seats. Mother then proceeded to use this convenient flat surface to change baby. I reached for the call bell.
However, Sabena looked after us very well and I was on the first out the next morning.
So the explanation was simple and uncontrovertible as it will have cost Sabena a lot of money. But their handling of it meant that I used the same service again in the mid 1990s.
(Wheres ‘Slasher’ when you need him? This sounds like an old school intro in JB
…)
Yes, a 737 is a complicated machine... but there are enough passengers on an average flight who have a decent brain and can follow sentences of more than 10 multi-syllable words. At least try to explain the issue - some pax will understand (and explain to pax travelling with them)... and pilots will be accorded due respect.
It’s Christmas Eve, literally, and for the benefit of the story. You’re in ops and the redcaps and the dispatch/turnaround teams are working like slaves with the last few flights in filthy weather, both in blighty and across Europe, fog and widespread snow.
The last return rotation outbound LHR to Zurich has just gone tech, it’s a 737-700 (your type ma vary round trip fuel on board) and they’ve got a leading edge slat disagree and they’re talking to the spannerw@nkers who suggest bringing it back on stand for them to scratch and sniff. This is done and pax stay on board whilst the clock ticks away towards a no go time due insufficient turn round due airport closure at ZRH and the crew looking forward to sectors 4/5 of a day that would be shaded brown if you were color coding them. The engineers decide it’s £ucked, leaving a bloke working on it. So Xmas eve and you offload the pax with no aircraft to put them on, and the joy of trying to find hotels/taxis/coaches to transport them if there’s no solution.
However inbound you have a 1 hr delayed 737-300 (standby crew) which is due to go to Inverness and back which is just touching down. Your INV pax having followed’their’ plane on FR24 are smug that they are soon on their way.
So how easy is it going to be to tell them that their aircraft is going to be stolen with its crew to go to Switzerland, and that their ‘replacement’ is currently tech (might be repaired, dunno yet) with a crew running out of hours and unsurprisingly not prepared to go into discretion. You have to swap the aircraft and crew, as flight deck not cross rated between variants.
Meanwhile in Zurich the redcaps are beating off angry pax who want to know when they’re leaving, they know the airport closes and doesn’t do ‘extensions’ and its Christmas Eve..
Or you could run the INV as planned, hope the ZRH comes on line as the spanner’s have just advised you they think they’ll have sorted it in about 45mins. However if you do that the timing means you won’t have enough time to onload the return pax within curfews, so it’ll be land offload, and depart MT to get the aircraft and crew back in time so the aircraft is in the right location for the next days flying program, and to ensure it flies the right sequence of flights to get into its C check in two days time, without any subsequent positioning flights to get in the right place. And if you do that you’ve got to find transport and Hotac for 150 ZRH pax on Christmas Eve, and a separate hotel for the crew, you’re not going to put them in with a bunch of cancelled pax on Christmas Eve are you?
There you go. A fairly typical LCC day at the office.
Operational Reasons.
Sorted.
Last edited by jumpseater; 24th Dec 2021 at 14:17.
Son of Slot
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jumpseater Thank You. That is a brilliant explanation. I am glad that my only journey today (Christmas Eve, is a 25 minute car journey to family.
S.o.S.
You’re welcome. I’d love to stop and chat but we’ve just worked out that if we swap and use the -700 for INV, due to the round trip ZRH fuel it won’t do INV as their runway is contaminated. We might stand a chance if we offload some pax and bags and go lighter, however it’s a full house, and they’re all checked in. We now need to decide which pax we’ll offload..
y’all have a good Christmas and spare a thought for the boys and girls across the industry, working through the holiday season.
You’re welcome. I’d love to stop and chat but we’ve just worked out that if we swap and use the -700 for INV, due to the round trip ZRH fuel it won’t do INV as their runway is contaminated. We might stand a chance if we offload some pax and bags and go lighter, however it’s a full house, and they’re all checked in. We now need to decide which pax we’ll offload..
y’all have a good Christmas and spare a thought for the boys and girls across the industry, working through the holiday season.
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I remember many moons ago people complaining about the fairly standard announcement "We apologise for the delay to your flight to XXX, this is due to the late arrival of the inbound aircraft", but didn't tell you why the inbound flight was delayed. One of the handling agents agreed with the statement being a bit vague and announced "We apologise for the delay to your flight to Palma, this is due to forest fires in Greece". No other explanation was given (ie the inbound aircraft was operating a Corfu return) leading to a lot of pax looking very confused as they knew (or thought) they weren't going anywhere near Greece.
Russia (USSR) - Red Faces in Red Square, By Bernard Garvie (1970)
The story is completely true. Many years ago I used to stay there regularly, and I knew the manager of the Metropol, who was working there when the incident occurred. He confirmed the details of the story.
Apologies for the thread drift...
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Ah yes, I remember a time when ATC delays were common enough that they became the standard and convenient excuse for delays whatever the real reason was. One crew got caught out when I was on board. Quick call to my mates at Flow who confirmed (as I had suspected) that the flight I was on was not subject to any restrictions! I had a friendly chat to the FD afterwards and they admitted that it was a convenient way of taking pressure off the company for tech or operational issues. Pax just muttered "ATC again" 
Did the 'rounds' at West Drayton, early '80's.
Paxing All Over The World
I recall a trip LHR-ABZ where we were given the 'ATC delay'. So I checked in PPruNe and - it was True!! However, I recall being reprimanded for doubting what I was I told by the flight deck. 
Perhaps times change.
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I have had two longish delays in over 57 years of flying man and boy.
First was outbound with BCAL around 1975 going back to Chile on 707. We boarded A/C, engine started and then start ups stopped at the end of push. We were pulled back in to gate and large ladder brought to Starboard wing, and tech engineer appeared and climbed up onto wing, and removed a panel and then went and got a hammer to go with driver he already had. He then semi climbed into wing and used tools at hand. 30 min later we were off loaded and went to Brighton for 24hrs. Flew out following day with out any explanation apart from CC saying better to sort at Gatwick than have a problem down route.
Next was TWA out of Baltimore on 767 heading for Gatwick 1989, we never got near A/C as problem with engine spotted pre boarding. Part was available at JFK and TWA said they would send it down and fit and gave us vouchers for use at airport facilities, I flew in the back in those days unless someone took pity on you ! Well drinks were partaken in chunky amounts as we thought we would be flying that night. Unfortunately we and TWA did account for ground handling cock up, as part sent to Dulles not Baltimore followed by crash on Beltway which further delayed transfer. Bars had shut by then; and arrangements were made for night stop. I had met an interesting fellow and his colleague who were ostensibly going to American Univ in Tel Aviv, but who seemed more interested in stuff further East ( Gulf War one was 2 weeks old) and I had come back from Kuwait 3 weeks previously, and had worked in Damascus. Needless to say I got the impression they did not work for C&A. At the hotel drinking continued his colleague never made the room, which was a shame as she was cute ! Boarded flight 8.30 with horrendous hangover but got an upgrade unexpectedly and sat next to my drinking buddies 👍👍
All the rest of my flying has been near enough on time, or with minimal delays say under 6 hrs, so I must be lucky in that at least, and as others have said, I am always patient with those who serve me. Given that in normal times I fly around 300,000 miles per year I think it says a lot about modern A/C reliability.
Cheers
Mr Mac
First was outbound with BCAL around 1975 going back to Chile on 707. We boarded A/C, engine started and then start ups stopped at the end of push. We were pulled back in to gate and large ladder brought to Starboard wing, and tech engineer appeared and climbed up onto wing, and removed a panel and then went and got a hammer to go with driver he already had. He then semi climbed into wing and used tools at hand. 30 min later we were off loaded and went to Brighton for 24hrs. Flew out following day with out any explanation apart from CC saying better to sort at Gatwick than have a problem down route.
Next was TWA out of Baltimore on 767 heading for Gatwick 1989, we never got near A/C as problem with engine spotted pre boarding. Part was available at JFK and TWA said they would send it down and fit and gave us vouchers for use at airport facilities, I flew in the back in those days unless someone took pity on you ! Well drinks were partaken in chunky amounts as we thought we would be flying that night. Unfortunately we and TWA did account for ground handling cock up, as part sent to Dulles not Baltimore followed by crash on Beltway which further delayed transfer. Bars had shut by then; and arrangements were made for night stop. I had met an interesting fellow and his colleague who were ostensibly going to American Univ in Tel Aviv, but who seemed more interested in stuff further East ( Gulf War one was 2 weeks old) and I had come back from Kuwait 3 weeks previously, and had worked in Damascus. Needless to say I got the impression they did not work for C&A. At the hotel drinking continued his colleague never made the room, which was a shame as she was cute ! Boarded flight 8.30 with horrendous hangover but got an upgrade unexpectedly and sat next to my drinking buddies 👍👍
All the rest of my flying has been near enough on time, or with minimal delays say under 6 hrs, so I must be lucky in that at least, and as others have said, I am always patient with those who serve me. Given that in normal times I fly around 300,000 miles per year I think it says a lot about modern A/C reliability.
Cheers
Mr Mac
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Yesterday evening departing Edinburgh, No1 son tells me that the pax were informed by the flightdeck that the (30min) delay was due to 'de-icing and helping an assistance passenger'.
Oddly, he (and presumably most pax) didn't think anything of it, until I told him he had been lied to, as the OAT was +9C.
'Delay due to operational reasons' would have saved the crews' credibility and the assistance passengers blushes.
Oddly, he (and presumably most pax) didn't think anything of it, until I told him he had been lied to, as the OAT was +9C.
'Delay due to operational reasons' would have saved the crews' credibility and the assistance passengers blushes.
Cold enough
Was once deadheading on a North African carrier that had landed at Geneva on its way to Zurich..OAT in the double figures..my captain spots a sheet of clear ice on the wings and sends me to cockpit…it took two full goes to clear the ice caused by cold soaked fuel. It had been missed by our company engineers who handled the turn around.
Yesterday evening departing Edinburgh, No1 son tells me that the pax were informed by the flightdeck that the (30min) delay was due to 'de-icing and helping an assistance passenger'.
Oddly, he (and presumably most pax) didn't think anything of it, until I told him he had been lied to, as the OAT was +9C.
'Delay due to operational reasons' would have saved the crews' credibility and the assistance passengers blushes.
Oddly, he (and presumably most pax) didn't think anything of it, until I told him he had been lied to, as the OAT was +9C.
'Delay due to operational reasons' would have saved the crews' credibility and the assistance passengers blushes.
Now deicing an aircraft at EDI in December can probably be achieved relatively quickly, as de-icing capacity in winter is anticipated. Not so easy to arrange in summer months as deicing isn’t anticipated, de-icers aren’t available, so it’s wait for it to melt, thus ensuring a delay in your 30 minute turn round.
https://deicing.net/?p=261
Any volunteers out there happy to stand in front of a crowd of passengers in June and explain cold soaked fuel to them in four languages? Or is it more sensible to just apologise for an operational delay, that you know will resolve itself in an hour or so.
Last edited by jumpseater; 31st Dec 2021 at 17:03.
Son of Slot
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Thank You to all for the continuing range of stories and views. I think this is really helpful to even the experienced SLF amongst us. Cold soaking has been discussed in the Cabin on occasions and (if memory serves) has contributed to prangs.
Anyway, I hope we can keep this level of reasoned debate and information into the new year.
Anyway, I hope we can keep this level of reasoned debate and information into the new year.
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Jumpseater,
If I was incorrect in my assertion, I am more than happy to take the rap in public, call myself names, be embarrassed by my lack of knowledge and apologise to anyone and everyone I have offended.
I also put forward this example of why it may be better to state 'operational reasons' than give a specific reason.
I am slightly familiar with cold soaked fuel, however never considered it in this instance as the aircraft had been flying short sectors and on the previous sector the departure point was at +12.
My son did not pass on my thoughts to other passengers, as we only discussed it once he had landed.
If I was incorrect in my assertion, I am more than happy to take the rap in public, call myself names, be embarrassed by my lack of knowledge and apologise to anyone and everyone I have offended.
I also put forward this example of why it may be better to state 'operational reasons' than give a specific reason.
I am slightly familiar with cold soaked fuel, however never considered it in this instance as the aircraft had been flying short sectors and on the previous sector the departure point was at +12.
My son did not pass on my thoughts to other passengers, as we only discussed it once he had landed.