Thai Airways passengers removed from first class to accomodate deadheaders
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Thai Airways passengers removed from first class to accomodate deadheaders
The Thai Airways International president has apologised to two passengers forced to give up their first-class seats for two off-duty pilots deadheading from Zurich to Bangkok.
Copy and paste this for full story: bangkokpost.com/business/tourism-and-transport/1560950/thai-sorry-passengers-forced-to-vacate-seats-for-crew#cxrecs_s
Please would a member of admin insert the full url - my posting privileges don't allow me to do so. Many thanks.
Copy and paste this for full story: bangkokpost.com/business/tourism-and-transport/1560950/thai-sorry-passengers-forced-to-vacate-seats-for-crew#cxrecs_s
Please would a member of admin insert the full url - my posting privileges don't allow me to do so. Many thanks.
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THAI 'sorry' passengers forced to vacate seats for crew
19 Oct 2018 at 11:29
The Thai Airways International president has apologised to two passengers forced to give up their first-class seats for two off-duty pilots deadheading from Zurich to Bangkok.
The aircraft's departure was reportedly delayed for about two hours, with the on-duty pilots refusing to take off until first-class seats were made available for their off-duty colleagues.
The national airline posted the apology from president Sumeth Damrongchaitham on its Facebook page late on Thursday night.
He said the matter was severe and affected the airline's image. He had ordered an investigation and would ensure such an incident did not occur again.
"I express sorrow and apologise to all passengers affected by the unprofessional action that caused the delay. And I apologise to the passengers who were directly affected by the seat change. I take responsibility for the incident," Mr Sumeth said.
The incident reportedly involved THAI flight TG971 from Zurich to Bangkok on Oct 11. It was scheduled to depart at 1.30pm but the duty pilots refused to take off unless some first-class passengers agreed to give up their seats to two THAI pilots deadheading to Bangkok.
All first-class passengers initially refused to do so. After about two hours of delay, a couple finally vacated their seats so the flight could depart.
They later filed a complaint, saying the two off-duty pilots should have been given vacant seats in business class, rather than taking all passengers hostage to achieve what they wanted.
The flight was over an hour late arriving at Suvarnabhumi airport.
19 Oct 2018 at 11:29
The Thai Airways International president has apologised to two passengers forced to give up their first-class seats for two off-duty pilots deadheading from Zurich to Bangkok.
The aircraft's departure was reportedly delayed for about two hours, with the on-duty pilots refusing to take off until first-class seats were made available for their off-duty colleagues.
The national airline posted the apology from president Sumeth Damrongchaitham on its Facebook page late on Thursday night.
He said the matter was severe and affected the airline's image. He had ordered an investigation and would ensure such an incident did not occur again.
"I express sorrow and apologise to all passengers affected by the unprofessional action that caused the delay. And I apologise to the passengers who were directly affected by the seat change. I take responsibility for the incident," Mr Sumeth said.
The incident reportedly involved THAI flight TG971 from Zurich to Bangkok on Oct 11. It was scheduled to depart at 1.30pm but the duty pilots refused to take off unless some first-class passengers agreed to give up their seats to two THAI pilots deadheading to Bangkok.
All first-class passengers initially refused to do so. After about two hours of delay, a couple finally vacated their seats so the flight could depart.
They later filed a complaint, saying the two off-duty pilots should have been given vacant seats in business class, rather than taking all passengers hostage to achieve what they wanted.
The flight was over an hour late arriving at Suvarnabhumi airport.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...-crew#cxrecs_s
This sort of thing happens occasionally in my experience but usually never makes the news. I've seen operating pilots threaten to set the parking brake and get off unless their colleagues were upgraded to business or first class (which in many cases is contractual for duty deadhead). And, I've seen a paying pax offloaded to accommodate an airline executive's wife riding on a pass.
Indian MP Ravindra Gaikwad famously pummeled a flight attendant with his shoe after being seated in economy class instead of business class. It was an all economy flight :
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-slipper.html
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Rode AC from FRA to YYZ a couple of days ago with two deadheading cabin crew wanting seats in the completely full business class because it is in their contract. Maybe the paying pax should turn on their video phone and ask the airline rep of they really want another United Airlines style incident on the news.
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Rode AC from FRA to YYZ a couple of days ago with two deadheading cabin crew wanting seats in the completely full business class because it is in their contract. Maybe the paying pax should turn on their video phone and ask the airline rep of they really want another United Airlines style incident on the news.
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Were the offloaded pax offered any compensation in exchange?
Also, in any other airline it wouldn't matter but in this case it does: the offloaded pax are Thais or foreigners?
Also, in any other airline it wouldn't matter but in this case it does: the offloaded pax are Thais or foreigners?
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He said the matter was severe and affected the airline's image. He had ordered an investigation and would ensure such an incident did not occur again. "I express sorrow and apologise to all passengers...
Really simple, honour the contract instead of trying to lever through the duplicitous media.
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https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea....class-captain/
gives a bit more
gives a bit more
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What I would want to know is: were the removed pax revenue pax or non-revenue pax. There are thousands of people in Thailand: third cousins of ex-TG staff, retired politicians, police and military officers etc who have been given free flight benefits years ago, and who keep enjoying those benefits.
If a fare paying pax is bumped, something is wrong. If someone flying for free is bumped: not a problem.
Just my 2 baht...
If a fare paying pax is bumped, something is wrong. If someone flying for free is bumped: not a problem.
Just my 2 baht...
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From a One Mile at a Time article cited in the link above:
Thai Several of you have forwarded me stories about what supposedly happened on Thai Airways flight 971 from Zurich to Bangkok on October 11, 2018.
The story sounds scandalous — there were off-duty pilots onboard, and the captain operating the flight refused to depart until his colleagues were allocated first class seats, even though all first class seats were taken by passengers. Only after two passengers offered to downgrade from first to business class seats did the flight continue.
The flight took off about 2.5 hours late because of this incident, and landed about 1.5 hours late.
Thai Airways’ president has apologized for the incident and taken responsibility:
But what really happened?
Well, based on the research I’ve done, it seems that this may not have been quite as it seems. It’s still bad, but no one here got downgraded to a cabin below what they paid for.
First of all, Thai Airways uses a combination of 777-300ERs and 747-400s on their route between Bangkok and Zurich. They don’t sell the first class cabin on this flight, so no one actually paid for a first class seat. Rather the first class seats are available to be assigned by business class passengers on a first come first served basis.
For example, here’s the seatmap for an upcoming flight, showing the first class cabin as the first three rows of business class:
It would appear that this 747-400 flight to Bangkok had four deadheading pilots onboard (this means they were flying as passengers, but on company business in this case). That makes sense, since the previous flights had been operated by 777-300ERs, so they were likely 777 pilots and not 747 pilots.
Here’s a memo written regarding the incident, which is in Thai. Here’s part of it translated, via Google Translate:“Due to the flight case. TG971 / 11OCT / ZRH-BKK 49C 325Y, B777-300ER Config. 42C 306Y, due to the B777 and B747 airplane changes, resulting in Passive Crew 2FC and 2FP. Please refer to the Flight Crew Standard Passage Crew’s Seat for Passenger Crew and Passive Crew Summer 2018 which determines the 24AB / EF seat. The seating 16AB / JK, a seat in the C-class Upper deck replacement “due to change flight times to change the flight in advance (refer to ASM YS 252 dated September 13, 2561) makes the reservation the seating chart in. First Class Zone (Row 1-3) for business class passengers. And passengers have already booked seats.
“TG971 / 11OCT has 39C 275Y passengers, with all seats in the First Class Zone (9 seats) reserved in advance. When all the pilots and crew arrived. The Passenger Crew’s Passenger Crew number is 16AB / JK (2FC / 2FP). The PIC denies and confirms that both Passive FCs are seated in the First Class Zone. Will perform as requested. The station. Passengers are required to seat in First Class Zone for individual seats. But it has been totally rejected. Until XXX, the passenger number XXXXX and his wife decided to move the seat to 16AB. Later, the passenger stated that the passenger was XXXXX and his wife. And ask for a solution to prevent such problems again.
So I’m still not completely sure what exactly triggered this incident. I’m not sure how much of this comes down to a technicality of a plane with first class being operated in a way where they’re not selling first class.
At a minimum it sounds like pilots are entitled to certain business class seats in this configuration, and it sounds like deadheading captains might be entitled to first class seats, even. But they weren’t selling first class on this service yet all the seats were assigned, so…
Regardless, I find it ridiculous that this couldn’t be resolved in a faster manner. Delaying a flight by 2.5 hours over an employee seat issue is simply embarrassing.
At the same time, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that no one was downgraded here to a cabin below what they paid for. Seat assignments are always subject to change, and that includes if you can snag a “free” upgrade to a first class seat on a flight where the cabin isn’t for sale.
https://onemileatatime.com/thai-airw...ss-seat-delay/
Thai Airways Flight Delayed Because Off-Duty Pilots Wanted First Class Seats
The story sounds scandalous — there were off-duty pilots onboard, and the captain operating the flight refused to depart until his colleagues were allocated first class seats, even though all first class seats were taken by passengers. Only after two passengers offered to downgrade from first to business class seats did the flight continue.
The flight took off about 2.5 hours late because of this incident, and landed about 1.5 hours late.
Thai Airways’ president has apologized for the incident and taken responsibility:
“I express sorrow and apologize to all passengers affected by the unprofessional action that caused the delay. And I apologize to the passengers who were directly affected by the seat change. I take responsibility…”
Well, based on the research I’ve done, it seems that this may not have been quite as it seems. It’s still bad, but no one here got downgraded to a cabin below what they paid for.
First of all, Thai Airways uses a combination of 777-300ERs and 747-400s on their route between Bangkok and Zurich. They don’t sell the first class cabin on this flight, so no one actually paid for a first class seat. Rather the first class seats are available to be assigned by business class passengers on a first come first served basis.
For example, here’s the seatmap for an upcoming flight, showing the first class cabin as the first three rows of business class:
It would appear that this 747-400 flight to Bangkok had four deadheading pilots onboard (this means they were flying as passengers, but on company business in this case). That makes sense, since the previous flights had been operated by 777-300ERs, so they were likely 777 pilots and not 747 pilots.
Here’s a memo written regarding the incident, which is in Thai. Here’s part of it translated, via Google Translate:“Due to the flight case. TG971 / 11OCT / ZRH-BKK 49C 325Y, B777-300ER Config. 42C 306Y, due to the B777 and B747 airplane changes, resulting in Passive Crew 2FC and 2FP. Please refer to the Flight Crew Standard Passage Crew’s Seat for Passenger Crew and Passive Crew Summer 2018 which determines the 24AB / EF seat. The seating 16AB / JK, a seat in the C-class Upper deck replacement “due to change flight times to change the flight in advance (refer to ASM YS 252 dated September 13, 2561) makes the reservation the seating chart in. First Class Zone (Row 1-3) for business class passengers. And passengers have already booked seats.
“TG971 / 11OCT has 39C 275Y passengers, with all seats in the First Class Zone (9 seats) reserved in advance. When all the pilots and crew arrived. The Passenger Crew’s Passenger Crew number is 16AB / JK (2FC / 2FP). The PIC denies and confirms that both Passive FCs are seated in the First Class Zone. Will perform as requested. The station. Passengers are required to seat in First Class Zone for individual seats. But it has been totally rejected. Until XXX, the passenger number XXXXX and his wife decided to move the seat to 16AB. Later, the passenger stated that the passenger was XXXXX and his wife. And ask for a solution to prevent such problems again.
So I’m still not completely sure what exactly triggered this incident. I’m not sure how much of this comes down to a technicality of a plane with first class being operated in a way where they’re not selling first class.
At a minimum it sounds like pilots are entitled to certain business class seats in this configuration, and it sounds like deadheading captains might be entitled to first class seats, even. But they weren’t selling first class on this service yet all the seats were assigned, so…
Regardless, I find it ridiculous that this couldn’t be resolved in a faster manner. Delaying a flight by 2.5 hours over an employee seat issue is simply embarrassing.
At the same time, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that no one was downgraded here to a cabin below what they paid for. Seat assignments are always subject to change, and that includes if you can snag a “free” upgrade to a first class seat on a flight where the cabin isn’t for sale.
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Don't shoot me but, why they deadheading crew didn't choose to go back to the hotel in Zurich if the seats are not what they are entitled to contractually? That means more perdiems and hotels for the airline to pay and lack of technical crew in Bangkok base (the deadheading crew would not be able to take more duty in the next few days) without giving the airline management the perfect excuse to go after the pilot force in general.
There are ways and ways...
There are ways and ways...
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I had had this happen a few times over my career and instead of a confrontation with a gate agent I would call my crew scheduler and just tell them I had been denied boarding. As I recall I was called by gate agent shortly after with proper seat . No conflict or argument although a dirty look was usually shot my way. FYI I am talking about an on duty DH contractually guaranteed seat .
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The real answer if there was an issue was that the affected crew should have just refused to travel. The company could have then sorted out if they were within their rights to do so and no paying passengers inconvenienced.
and no paying passengers inconvenienced
Badly handled all around by the look of it. When you add Thai national idiosyncrasies to the mix this was inevitable.
Don't shoot me but, why they deadheading crew didn't choose to go back to the hotel in Zurich if the seats are not what they are entitled to contractually?
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Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Implying business class is not good enough for them is not a good PR look for the airline..
The seating example given above shows all seats as business.
It does seem some seats are better than others but that is the case throughout aircraft.
And from the photo hardly worth fighting over one of the cubicles.
It does seem some seats are better than others but that is the case throughout aircraft.
And from the photo hardly worth fighting over one of the cubicles.
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway.
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What it is, is bad marketing and communication from the airline. You don't let your passengers know that a conflict between crew and company is taking them hostage. You determine which 2 first class seats have to be vacated, and then do whatever it takes to keep the two "downgraded" passengers happy. And yes, occasionally that will imply a lavish expense of miles/vouchers/cash/free tickets.
I had an experience with Condor Flugdienste, whereby I had booked my business class seat months in advance, full fare, and as I was a gold member of their alliance at the time, I really did NOT expect to be booted down to premium economy. However, as their decrepit old 767 had trouble waking up in Frankfurt that morning, 2 hours delay meant that the enlarger was entitled to 2 (!) business class seats for his enroute rest, and one of those seat happened to be "mine". The gate agent never even entered into negotiations with me, just told me the facts and faced me with the choice of either waiting 4 days (!!) for the next direct flight, or sit in premium economy. Fair enough so far, but here's the rub: instead of helping get compensation, all I was left with was an internet address to which I was "authorized" to complain, and 6 weeks and 2 phone calls later, what I got was the price-difference between the premium eco and the business class ticket. No apology, no compensation, NOTHING. So f*ck Condor from now on, and my loyalty miles are now with another alliance. Had they wanted to keep more of my business, all they had to do was apologize, give me an upgrade voucher for a future flight, and compensate my fare difference without my having to beg for it...
I had an experience with Condor Flugdienste, whereby I had booked my business class seat months in advance, full fare, and as I was a gold member of their alliance at the time, I really did NOT expect to be booted down to premium economy. However, as their decrepit old 767 had trouble waking up in Frankfurt that morning, 2 hours delay meant that the enlarger was entitled to 2 (!) business class seats for his enroute rest, and one of those seat happened to be "mine". The gate agent never even entered into negotiations with me, just told me the facts and faced me with the choice of either waiting 4 days (!!) for the next direct flight, or sit in premium economy. Fair enough so far, but here's the rub: instead of helping get compensation, all I was left with was an internet address to which I was "authorized" to complain, and 6 weeks and 2 phone calls later, what I got was the price-difference between the premium eco and the business class ticket. No apology, no compensation, NOTHING. So f*ck Condor from now on, and my loyalty miles are now with another alliance. Had they wanted to keep more of my business, all they had to do was apologize, give me an upgrade voucher for a future flight, and compensate my fare difference without my having to beg for it...
Paxing All Over The World
This probably comes down to the Thai culture and an authoritarian approach. If you couple that with a lack of understand of the modern Twit, Gram and Face brigade that can 'lynch' you electronically ... then there will be more of this. We have famously seen United start to learn the lesson and other companies (not just airlines) are doing so too.
What those involved (at middle and senior levels) have to learn is that, a conflict - however minor - that you think has been resolved to your satisfaction, will be on the Net before you have walked from the aircraft back to your office. So be thinking about the e-lynching whilst the problem is evolving! That does not mean giving in to whatever is being demanded but know what the contract says for all parties involved. Be ready with your explanation to your senior manager!
What those involved (at middle and senior levels) have to learn is that, a conflict - however minor - that you think has been resolved to your satisfaction, will be on the Net before you have walked from the aircraft back to your office. So be thinking about the e-lynching whilst the problem is evolving! That does not mean giving in to whatever is being demanded but know what the contract says for all parties involved. Be ready with your explanation to your senior manager!
The Thai 777s have no first class, all passengers had business class tickets, the 744 has 50 business class seats. The 777 has 42 business class seats. The 744 should have has 8 business class and the 14 first class seats empty after accommodating all of the paid passengers.