Ryanair cancellations
Joined: May 2009
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From: Confoederatio Helvetica
Or perhaps no PPRuNe SFL would ever admit to flying with FR.
Note S.o.S's post above. Lots of discussion in the Terms & Endearment forum, http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...g-flights.html
S.o.S - Thank you for not deleting this thread. There is a SLF aspect to this
storm.
Note S.o.S's post above. Lots of discussion in the Terms & Endearment forum, http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...g-flights.html
S.o.S - Thank you for not deleting this thread. There is a SLF aspect to this
storm.
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Siargao Island
In one of my previous lives I worked in recruitment and one of our customer airlines was RYR and, with a previous background in Crew Scheduling, I picked up on RYR's situation … at that time.
Flight Crew can operate a maximum of 100 block hours in 28 days and a maximum of 900 block hours in 12 consecutive months, RYR may have a slight amendment to this but it's a maximum of 900 hours per year.
RYR work their pilots pretty much to the limit, I mean if they're going to the Canaries and back (8 hours) they can only work 12.5 days in 28, 4 sectors (6 hours) then 16.66 days in 28, on RYR's type of operation it's very easy to clock up 100 hours in 28 days.
But there are thirteen 28 day periods in 12 months and at 100 hours they can only work 9 of these periods so by the end of a summer a substantial amount of their pilots would be reaching their sell-by dates and needed to be sent on leave, put on light duties and/or grounded, we're at around that time of year now.
In my past recruitment another customer airline was Excel and rather than lay their contract pilots off of a winter we would place them with RYR for the winter months whilst RYR's own pilots were 'resting'.
I tend not to believe the excuse of a leave scheduling cock-up, RYR have been in business for a lot of years, they need to send these people on leave because they're burned out of hours, I've read of financial incentives (bribes) for pilots to work longer but hours in excess of the legal maximums cannot be bought.
Flight Crew can operate a maximum of 100 block hours in 28 days and a maximum of 900 block hours in 12 consecutive months, RYR may have a slight amendment to this but it's a maximum of 900 hours per year.
RYR work their pilots pretty much to the limit, I mean if they're going to the Canaries and back (8 hours) they can only work 12.5 days in 28, 4 sectors (6 hours) then 16.66 days in 28, on RYR's type of operation it's very easy to clock up 100 hours in 28 days.
But there are thirteen 28 day periods in 12 months and at 100 hours they can only work 9 of these periods so by the end of a summer a substantial amount of their pilots would be reaching their sell-by dates and needed to be sent on leave, put on light duties and/or grounded, we're at around that time of year now.
In my past recruitment another customer airline was Excel and rather than lay their contract pilots off of a winter we would place them with RYR for the winter months whilst RYR's own pilots were 'resting'.
I tend not to believe the excuse of a leave scheduling cock-up, RYR have been in business for a lot of years, they need to send these people on leave because they're burned out of hours, I've read of financial incentives (bribes) for pilots to work longer but hours in excess of the legal maximums cannot be bought.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK
That's a nice, succinct explanation of the situation Ryanair finds itself in (and it's a problem entirely of their own making).
The only thing I would add is that there have been suggestions that RYR has also been playing fast and loose with the "900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month. So, for example, a pilot could fly 500 hours in the last six months of the defined year and another 500 hours in the first six months of the next year, which would clearly be against both the letter and the spirit of the regulation.
The only thing I would add is that there have been suggestions that RYR has also been playing fast and loose with the "900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month. So, for example, a pilot could fly 500 hours in the last six months of the defined year and another 500 hours in the first six months of the next year, which would clearly be against both the letter and the spirit of the regulation.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
The only thing I would add is that there have been suggestions that RYR has also been playing fast and loose with the "900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month.
Ask the IAA. They should have all the facts.
Ask the IAA. They should have all the facts.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,042
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From: Siargao Island
Flight Crew can operate a maximum of 100 block hours in 28 days and a maximum of 900 block hours in 12 consecutive months, RYR may have a slight amendment to this but it's a maximum of 900 hours per year.
As I posted above I also recall variations on the 900 block hours in 12 months, that operators could variate this to work to their advantage.
But all is as per the operator's Operation Manual which is approved by their regulating authority, in this case I presume the Irish CAA, not JAA.
If the rules are there to be abused then they shall surely be abused, it's not the fault of the operator, if anybody's fault then the fault of the regulting authority that approved any abuse.
Last edited by Harry Wayfarers; 22nd September 2017 at 12:05.
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: UK
Ask the IAA. They should have all the facts
https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-...umbers-crisis/
Joined: May 2007
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From: Europe
"900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Siargao Island
Capot,
As I've twice already tried to suggest the regulatory authorities are allowing dispensations such as "Our 12 months shall be from January until December".
Don't scold the operator, scold the regulsatory authority.
As I've twice already tried to suggest the regulatory authorities are allowing dispensations such as "Our 12 months shall be from January until December".
Don't scold the operator, scold the regulsatory authority.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
It is caused by the terminology. If I understand it correctly there is a 'calendar year' limit AND a 12 month rolling limit, and they are different. WTF. WHY? How to make an easy job difficult. It can only have been because the airlines badgered EASA to allow some flexibility to their limits. Now for me a limit is a limit. It is not flexible and 2 limits can not apply to the same situation. But then EASA is born out of Brussels and therein lies the answer. FUDGE on behalf of the capitalists and greed merchants.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
My cynical suggestion is that Brussels is not the main culprit but different airlines lobbying their reps for specific conditions to allow them to do what they have always done. That is - NOT to standardise!
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Siargao Island
There have been FTL dispensations around since, and before, I've been in the industry since the 70's, i.e. "Can we exceed the maximum FDP for this one particular series of flights if we give the crews extended pre-flight and post-flight rest periods" and the answers have invariably been "yes".
On the 900 hours in 12 consecutive months it is 100% legal to operate 900 hours in circa 8.5 months, which is likely to be more tiring, 900 hours in 8.5 months or 1,000 hours spread over a calendar year?
In a previous life I became tasked with writing my operator's FTL scheme, it was most one of the difficult challenges I've faced, particularly trying to do it in what otherwise spare moments I had, trying to think of every scenario, "What if this?", "What if that?" etc., we can all mock any particular rule or set of rules but try writing an FTL scheme for yourself and appreciate just how challenging it can be!
On the 900 hours in 12 consecutive months it is 100% legal to operate 900 hours in circa 8.5 months, which is likely to be more tiring, 900 hours in 8.5 months or 1,000 hours spread over a calendar year?
In a previous life I became tasked with writing my operator's FTL scheme, it was most one of the difficult challenges I've faced, particularly trying to do it in what otherwise spare moments I had, trying to think of every scenario, "What if this?", "What if that?" etc., we can all mock any particular rule or set of rules but try writing an FTL scheme for yourself and appreciate just how challenging it can be!
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 884
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From: by the seaside
Ryanair refusing compensation
Had my flight to nice cancelled two weeks ago whilst there was the normal cgt protest the airfield was operating normally as did most flights ..ryanair has refused compensation!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
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From: Wor Yerm
It's certainly now the pilot's fault. Too few of these greedy people refused their company's overly generous offer to work just one week of their annual leave. So for the benefit and convenience of Ryanair's passengers, and additional 400,000 people have now had their bookings cancelled between November and March 2018. But RYR has seen them right, they will all now receive a marvellous €40 travel voucher each valid between October 2017 and March 2018. So that will be alright them. Greedy pilots!
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
More flight cancellations, and routes being suspended too. 400,000 more passengers to be hit by Ryanair cancellations - BBC News
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Siargao Island
Ryanair will cancel another 18,000 flights between November and March, affecting the travel plans of another 400,000 passengers.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Ireland
How does the comments that Ryanair pilots are reaching their 900 legal annual max, combine with other comments on pprune that they didn't like the bonus offer because they had checked their logbooks and found they wheren't reaching that offer's 800 annual minimum.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK
