Turnaround Times

[Phileas Fogg]

With regard to baggage, airlines are their own worst enemies. Charging for checked in bags means passengers will go to almost any limit to avoid paying

I haven't had that problem PM.

When I emigrated from LHR with CX I was allowed a 20kg checked-in bag and some 7kg in the cabin, I was all over the place, my checked-in bag weighed some 26kg, my cabin bag some 10kg, "not a problem sir" came the words of the check-in lady who I had already become in to a banter with regarding if I required a visa for my destination country or not.

You get what you pay for!

[PAXboy]

When leaving SYD a couple of weeks ago we were a little overweight but had prepared by having some easily removable items in a plastic bag - cosmetics, shampoo, sun block etc., which we offerred to the check-in agent and were readily accepted. We shifted a bit more into our backpacks and were still slightly overweight - but then all was well.

The agent thanked us for making the changes and showing willing, "Many passengers don't want to make any effort and - if it's a bad day - some of my colleagues relish the fight ...!"

You still get what you pay for!

[IBMJunkman]

Mythbusters did a test.



http://youtu.be/ss1S3-Kv6R8

The key to any loading procedure is the door staff enforcing the loading rules.

[Haven't a clue]

I find a frequent contribution to any boarding delay is people stopping to extract reading material or what ever from the single piece of cabin baggage permitted, before putting their bag in the locker. Last Saturday morning for example I watched someone pause in the aisle by my seat and spent the best part of 2 minutes extracting her handbag, magazine and book from her carry on. She seemed completely oblivious that she was holding up everyone behind her. How on earth would any boarding procedure stop that?

(Perhaps if she had been allowed to bring on 2 bags that delay wouldn't have happened )

[Rwy in Sight]

How on earth would any boarding procedure stop that?

Maybe making an announcement "kindly keep reading materials or tablets on you person, not on your bag" during the other pre-boarding announcements.

[ExXB]

Originally Posted by Haven't a clue

(Perhaps if she had been allowed to bring on 2 bags that delay wouldn't have happened )

When my wife isn't allowed a second item she does exactly the same. When she is she's got everything in her handbag which she puts under the seat in front. On Easy everyone has access to this second item, it comes at a cost, but it is available.

Many airlines have a standard announcement regarding bags, coats, duty free stuff in the lockers. It would make sense if they made this announcement in the local language to pax in the gate area before boarding starts.

[Phileas Fogg]

Maybe making an announcement "kindly keep reading materials or tablets on you person, not on your bag" during the other pre-boarding announcements.

Let it not be missed that on our way to boarding the aircraft we pass thru one, two or more security checks where we are required to remove everything from our pockets, our belt, our shoes whatever.

Pre-security check(s) I, for one, put everything from my pockets in to the side pocket of my hand baggage so once I'm in the clear of those jobsworth types, which is sometimes once on board the aircraft, I need to transfer everything back to my pockets again.

[Hotel Tango]

so once I'm in the clear of those jobsworth types, which is sometimes once on board the aircraft

Sorry Phileas, don't agree with you there. I too have prepared myself prior to reaching security (not like the two women the other day who nattered incessantly until it was their turn and only then began their 5 minute preparation ritual, keeping all behind waiting). All my needed items are in one compartment of my carry-on bag. As soon as I'm through security I find that there are always areas immediately after where one can reconfigure oneself. When I board, all items I will need during flight are on my person or in my hands. As soon as I reach my seat the bag and coat (which I have taken off whilst waiting for the other punters to sort themselves out) goes into the overhead and I'm straight into my seat. If all passengers boarded fully prepared the procedure would be much more efficient.

[Phileas Fogg]

HT,

As an ex airline professional of some 30 years it seems that we are similarly organised, I was making the point regarding the ordinary 'Joe Public" who shall not be so organised as you and I and shall delay boarding as a result.

[419]

It might not be true nowadays (in fact, it might never have been true), but I do recall reading somewhere that one of the main limiting factors regarding aircraft turnaround times is the aircraft brake temperatures.

Could someone confirm if this is still (or ever was) a limiting factor regarding when an aircraft can depart following a recent landing.

[NCL-TRC]

I wouldn't imagine so, some of the European LCCs minimum turnaround times are now down to 25 minutes for 180 or so pax, and that's nigh on impossible. offloading 180 pax and their bags and then re-loading the same, whilst re-fuelling for a 4+ hours flight from the UK to somewhere like the canaries, amd that's giving time for the crew to perform their required tasks is really pushing it.

In terms of boarding, from a professional stand point I prefer to have an airbridge stand, but with passenger access to the ramp, meaning I have the comfort of the bridge if the turnaround is long enough or the weather is really bad, but if I need it I can still board front and rear.

[scr1]

EZY's turns used to be 20mins years ago in the days of 737's and plastic boarding cards

[Rwy in Sight]

Phileas Fogg,

I am not aware of any airport that additional security checks are after the departure lounge where those announcements can be played. So along with "xxx airlines to nnn is ready for boarding, ff members may board first ..." you add a line about prepare your stuff for storing aboard.

NCL-TRC the question contact vs remote stand (or whatever the terminology of the week is), can be the base of a good thread.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by 419

It might not be true nowadays (in fact, it might never have been true), but I do recall reading somewhere that one of the main limiting factors regarding aircraft turnaround times is the aircraft brake temperatures.

Could someone confirm if this is still (or ever was) a limiting factor regarding when an aircraft can depart following a recent landing.

In the past, brake temperature was sometimes addressed by fitting aircraft with integral brake cooling fans (some are still so equipped).

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by Peter47

I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but here goes.

On a recent trip around the US what struck me was the amount of time it took to load passengers. A full narrow bodied (and US airlines are typically operating at 85% load factors) seemed to take about 30 minutes to board meaning that a turnaround took about 50 minutes.


Can anyone tell me if there are any rules of thumb used and whether turnaround times have been increasing over the years. I seem to remember that Southwest used a 20 minute turnaround for 737s that was certainly without allocated seats - I don't know if they used two entrances like most European locos.

I always thought that it was common to start loading aircraft from the rear although I personally preferred the WILMA approach starting with window seats (but allowing groups to board together) although this seems to have been an experiment that was quickly discontinued. I notice that Delta loads by status so frequent / premium flyers are allowed to board first. This is doubtless to give them priority with the overhead bins but causes congestion. Later boarders have to check their truly enormous wheelies (for free mind you, I paid $25 to check in my not much larger ruck sack which did admittedly contain a couple of 125ml liquid containers). This adds to turnaround time. I know that airlines love the ancilliary revenue but I wonder if given the hassle that it is the way to go. Why not add $10 to fares and allow the first bag for free? Is the current business model really working?

Thirdly, I departed from the rear a 747 at Schiphol (OK the middle it was a Combi). I think that this has been covered before, but would the economics of having two jetties for single aisle aircraft be compelling? This has happened in the past.


Docked Dc8s Stock Photo | Getty Images

There would certainly be a capital cost associated with it but if it were to reduce turn around times by say ten minutes it might be well worth it. Has anyone ever done the calculations? (The locos have certainly worked out that it is worthwhile using the rear entrance.) Many crews are paid according to block rather than duty hours and you would probably need larger ramp crews so there may not be any saving in staff costs but airlines would require smaller fleets. It just seems more efficient.

Any thoughts on any of the above?

I'm not sure that turn times are any shorter in the UK or Europe than they are in the US. That has not been my observation.
Part of it may be that most US airlines are not usually very aggressive in enforcing carryon rules, so many pax ignore them, which does slow things down. It's always remarkable to see cabin crew manage to find space for everything in the bins of aircraft never intended to hold so much cabin baggage. It's also only fair, since the later boarding passengers should have as much right to carry their bag aboard as did the earlier boarding bin hogs. You are correct in noting that domestic US flights typically have very high load factors these days. Most of us have fond memories of many empty seats and easy upgrades even a decade ago. All gone now.
People do carry on more than they should, but this isn't simply to avoid the checked bag fees. Some folks feel that it'll take too long to get their checked bags, although this is rarely the case in our experience and some fear lost bags, although this also happens only very rarely. In fifty years of airline flying, I've never had a bag lost or delayed, although our checked bags have sometimes arrived on earlier flights than we did.
Airlines needing or wanting more utilization out of their aircraft usually don't depend upon quick turns for this. They'll more typically schedule either an early pink eye or a late red eye for their birds. They'll also put their TATL aircraft on shorter out and backs during what would otherwise by downtime between arriving in the US and setting out for Europe again.
In short, I don't think that turn times in the US are comparatively long and I'd doubt that you could speed things up enough to get another flight each day out of each aircraft.

[Heathrow Harry]

The answer to the carry-on problem is to hand the enforcement over to those loveable people who do the Security searches................ - but I can imagine the outcry................

[wowzz]

I am actually on a Jet Blue flight to FLL as I write, and I too cannot believe the size of some of the cases wheeled on board. Ryanair would have a fit. Fortunately not every pax had a 'jumbo' carryon, otherwise we would still be in Boston trying to stuff everything in.

[PAXboy]

That is it Heathrow Harry - the carriers know they have created their own problem and enforcement is always done lightly. Whilst it is the case that the LCCs enforce the regs, they do not do so all the time on every flight. The publicity would lose them customers. So they strike a balance of checking closely once in a while and a few people get fined. But they pay up as they usually get away with it.

Since it is impossible for all carriers to agree to enforce all their baggage regulations all the time - what we have now will persist for some time.

[Reverserbucket]

Paxing last week ex-LHR T2, following boarding complete and a head count, the Captain informed us that a passenger had boarded that shouldn't have (same operator, different destination and adjoining gate). Everyone had to deplane and return to the gate waiting area to enable a security search. The miscreant had left the aircraft prior to boarding complete (his seat was occupied which required the CC to scrutinise his boarding card and identify the error), but I'm curious as to how he was able to apparently pass through an electronic boarding pass scanner and doc (passport) cross-reference inspection at the gate by Menzies staff? Although his flight was parked on an adjoining stand, the gate heads are not shared so it wasn't a case of taking a wrong turn. This resulted in a 40 min delay and some tight connections at the other end.

My suggestion with gate procedures, better management and more efficient boarding is to ensure that gate PA's are loud enough and clear enough for everyone to hear - I find pre-boarding announcements are often mumbled or indistinct, leading to everyone in the vicinity standing up and congregating near the gate agents. Essentially, as has been said, enforcement of boarding sequence and proper identification of fast-track or priority boarding lanes is required...and a change to hand-baggage allowances.

[Espada III]

There are so many ways to improve the boarding of an aircraft (and like reverserbucket I am astonished as to how someone was able to apparently pass through an electronic boarding pass scanner and doc (passport) cross-reference inspection at the gate by Menzies staff)..

However as ever it comes down to cost and willingness of the staff to deal firmly with passengers. Most of the problems would go away if hold luggage was included in the ticket price. The worry (and it is a genuine worry for some people) that they will not be able to find a place for their large cabin bag makes them crush up by the gate. It is exacerbated in some flights by having large numbers of children (especially those under two) and parents who are not frequent flyers.

Alternatively, if you pay for luggage there is a guarantee that luggage is waiting on the carousel within say 15 minutes of the plane arriving on stand and stopping the engines. At least that way, you can be certain of being out of the airport within a reasonable time.