When does an EU flight "arrive?"

[Mark in CA]

The courts have weighed in on the issue of what constitutes "arrival" at an airport for purposes of potential compensation under EU passenger rights legislation. In short, it's only at the point at which passengers are able to deplane, not at touchdown on the runway.

Courthouse News Service

[easyflyer83]

It's when the aircraft pulls on stand and when the engines are shut down. That is your arrival.

Many of the travelling public believe that departure time is the time you take off.

[Tu.114]

Originally Posted by Easyflyer83

Many of the travelling public believe that departure time is the time you take off.

Then why do so many passengers struggle with the concept of being at their gate on time for boarding?

[ExXB]

From a passengers perspective, and the applicability of R261/2004, it is better to have a definition that a passenger can relate to.

"Pulls on the stand" or "Block-to-Block" or other airline/atc jargon are unknowns to a passenger. Door opening is more likely to be understood, although if you are in row 76 it could be another 10 minutes until you have actually 'arrived'.

But, IIRC, it hasn't been airline practice to record 'door-opening' times. Has it?

[DaveReidUK]

In short, it's only at the point at which passengers are able to deplane, not at touchdown on the runway.

Irrespective of when the doors are opened, Germanwings' argument that arrival delay is calculated by the difference between the scheduled (on stand) time and the actual (touchdown) time is clearly disingenuous and has justifiably been laughed out of court.

But, IIRC, it hasn't been airline practice to record 'door-opening' times. Has it?

I believe there are specific ACARS messages for "doors closed" and "doors open" (in addition to the usual Out and In messages) but I don't think many airlines use them.

[onetrack]

Mark in CA - Thanks for the heads-up, that decision is exactly what I needed. I have been fighting a ME airline for over a year, over that precise definition.
The flight left ATH 3 hrs late in August 2013 for CAI, and according to the airlines claim, made up time in flight, and "landed" at CAI 6 mins before the 3 hr EU261/2004 "flight delay" time limit expired.
However, it took more than 6 mins before we were free to disembark.
The airline is stonewalling us, it cost us over EGP£1900 EACH to rebook our missed connection - not to mention the overnight stay in CAI airport, because the airline in question refused any assistance whatsoever.
I don't know where to go next, as this airline has no intention of even talking to us.

[DaveReidUK]

Not sure for other types but the Bus has a ACARs page called OOOI (Out, Off, On, In)

Yes, those four messages are pretty well universal for all commercial airliners.

Interestingly, OFF time actually only gets auto recorded when you have a GS>2kts

The Off message means wheels lifting off the runway (usually triggered bythe squat switches), so you'd be doing well to manage that at under 2 knots, unless you're flying a helicopter.

[ExXB]

Onetrack, if the airline isn't talking to you I suggest you contact the NEB of the country of departure, or one of those companies that promise you to seek a claim, for a fee of course.

Given your losses, claimable under the Warsaw/Montreal conventions, you might want to seek legal advice.

[flyingtincan]

Clearly, the only 'official' arrival is where the 'another on-time arrival’ announcement and fanfare are played on exiting the runway.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by easyflyer83

It's when the aircraft pulls on stand and when the engines are shut down. That is your arrival.

Many of the travelling public believe that departure time is the time you take off.

It's not only the travelling public who have this misguided belief that runway time somehow equates with schedule time.

British Airways will announce in self-congratulation tones that they have been (past tense) "on time" during the taxi in at Heathrow, whereupon you sit for 20 minutes while other aircraft ahead are pushed off stand, and then wait for your own stand because nobody has yet turned up to switch the stand guidance on (for a remote stand, there are then no buses available).

Ryanair, meanwhile, who in all fairness seem never to suffer from this type of issue (how can someone who always gets their handling done by the lowest bidder still always have their marshals in place, compared to Terminal 5 ?) nevertheless always plays their ridiculous "another on time arrival" Ta-Ra-Ta-Dee out on the runway, sometimes while the thrust reversers are still deployed.

[MCDU2]

I wouldn't be comparing the policies of a loco here. Apples and oranges spring to mind. They are not a member of IATA and hence not governed by their rules for the recording of times. They could for example make up whatever block times they so wish and heaven forbid even consider merging a late departing flight with another to appear to be on time.

[ExXB]

IATA never measured on-time performances of its Members.

The AEA (Association of European Airlines) did measure the OTP of its Members for many years.

They stopped after FR started using the statistics in 'proving' they were more punctual. Of course ignoring the realities of network vs LCC operations.