BA and hand luggage

[Dry wretched thunder]

I fly regularly (very regularly in fact) to Ghana and other African countries, I use BA mainly due to my company booking it corporately. My point /question/query/complaint is this……..why the hell do BA staff at check in or boarding gate not control the quantity of hand luggage getting taken onboard the aircraft, it is clearly stated what the allowance is but every single flight Im delayed due to reams of people retuning home with overweight cases, masses of hand luggage, oversized hand luggage etc etc. At no point do these people go challenged and the s*it hits the fan every time when they get onboard and find that there is simply no where to accommodate their huge amount of wares that they seem to want on their lap.
It seems that there is a cowardness shown by BA as they don’t want to face the confrontation that will come with the mere suggestion of debagging somebody and also it seems like a great injustice to land this daily on the CC. Why do they do it, why is it allowed and what will it take to correct it??

[Sunnyjohn]

Well now - that's a different point of view, isn't it? LoCo airlines get regularly beaten up here on Pprune, in the press and elsewhere for being pedantic about the size and weight of carry-on luggage. Yes, I know some of those comments are regarding the obnoxiousness of the staff, but only some. Interesting.

[1970s Spotter]

I wrote to BA (an achievment in itself as it is VERY hard to find a physical address on their www site) on the very same issue myself back in the Spring.

My flights are not as glamourous as yours, as I mainly travel around Europe these days, but I still come across people who are reluctant to place anything in the hold. This, on a single-aisle aircraft, leads to all manner of @rse-pain as pax push and shove their way up and down in the aisle trying to find over-head space where you'd be hard pressed to slot in a sheet of paper let alone an overnight bag + laptop etc.

I have given up, I either check-in luggage (it's no big deal to collect your bags from the carosel IMO) or I stuff it under the seat in front and loose the leg room.

However . . . I received a fairly stock answer from BA . . followed 2 months later by a 'discretionary upgrade' on my Avios card from Bronze to Silver. Coincidence?

Doesn't stop people from bringing too much into the cabin, and don't get me started on the BA Lounges . . .


P.S. Many years ago I was at a BCAL desk at Gatwick when a gentleman on the Lagos flight tried to check in a giant 'American sized' fridge freezer.

[bondim]

I am with Sunnyjohn on this one: people complain if rules are enforced and people complain when they are not. That, of course does not address your issue, which is perfectly valid. I think companies these days, or at least UK airlines, are too afraid of upsetting customers in fear of losing custom, and staff live in the same "fear" of upsetting anyone. These matters won't be resolved for as long as companies do not back their staff in enforcing rules, not when upsetting the wrong person (you know, the precious lawyers, journalists and "victims of discrimination" who go to the likes of the Daily Mail with their "stories") can result in a scandal and an overinflated newspaper article, not to mention the possibility of law suits.

It is always a no-win.

[PAXboy]

bondim has said all that I would have said. Few legacy companies now enforce the baggage rules. The LCCs have become tougher on this - not always, of course.

But we have often discussed in this forum that pax who have plainly taken too much booze and others who are carrying too much luggage - get waved through by the ground staff. they do not want a stand up row/fight. Use the Search function and look in the FAQ thread about hand luggage - it's all there.

Pax now think they 'deserve' lots of things, including weight not specified in the Terms of Carriage. If you look at the thread regarding EZY and a pax who sent a 'bird like sound' msg and the whole media upheaval? Some Pax bully their way through, just as they do in the High Street, their families and their employment.

You can rail against BA or any carrier and the reaction you got is what you'll get. But you won't get ground crew making good use of the weight and measure frames. The check-in agent hasn't got the time to do it either because their numbers have been cut back to save money.

I am one of those idiots who meets the rules, occasionally pays up for excess weight and generally tries to keep life simple for myself.

[MG23]

That should all have been pretty obvious when airlines began cutting back on allowed hold baggage: if passengers can't take as much in the hold, they'll take more in the plane. If they didn't have some kind of plan to deal with it, they clearly weren't thinking very hard.

My guess is, some airline bean-counters got big bonuses for cutting baggage allowances, and the cabin crew are left to deal with the mess.

(I haven't flown BA in years, so I don't know whether they're doing the same, but pretty much every airline I have flown are).

[edi_local]

Originally Posted by bondim

I am with Sunnyjohn on this one: people complain if rules are enforced and people complain when they are not. That, of course does not address your issue, which is perfectly valid. I think companies these days, or at least UK airlines, are too afraid of upsetting customers in fear of losing custom, and staff live in the same "fear" of upsetting anyone. These matters won't be resolved for as long as companies do not back their staff in enforcing rules, not when upsetting the wrong person (you know, the precious lawyers, journalists and "victims of discrimination" who go to the likes of the Daily Mail with their "stories") can result in a scandal and an overinflated newspaper article, not to mention the possibility of law suits.

It is always a no-win.

This sums it up pretty well.

Check in staff and gate staff are tasked with controlling hand baggage. If they are strict then people come online, or write to the papers and moan. If they are lacking in control then the exact same thing happens when baggage can't be accommodated on board.

I used to be handling agent staff and the abuse I got for taking bags, even on small regional aircraft which had no overhead space, was ridiculous. Some people really acted like you were stealing from them. You heard every excuse..."It's fragile", "I never check it in", "it always fits", "It meets easyJet's sizes"*, "I'm a frequent flyer", "I've got a gold card", "I came in with it" etc etc etc It was a horrible task. Guaranteed arguments from each and every passenger you challenged, no matter how nice you were or how much you explained the rules. I lost count of how many times my name was taken over this matter (although I very rarely was actually complained about and even when I was the management backed us up anyway).

If you let one slip through then the ones you took bags off demanded theirs back or started arguing again. If you took every single bag you thought wasn't suitable then you'd delay the plane! Literally a lose-lose situation!

Online check in has made controlling hand baggage more difficult. Most people who check in online go straight to the gate these days and never see staff until they are boarding. They will bring a bag that's too big or heavy and then cause a massive argument right as they are about to go down on to the aircraft when they are asked to check it in. This just delays boarding more so often gate staff,under pressure to get flights out on time, don't want to risk delays so let it go.

It'll only get worse when it all goes fully automated and we have unmanned boarding gates as standard (already in use in many airports). Check in is already done without people, bag drop is now starting to roll out without any agents, security has fewer staff than ever before, not long until people will go through airports without seeing a human being and when that becomes the norm it'll be awful.

*This one always amused me as people seem to think that EZY have a small allowance, when in actual fact they are pretty generous, more so than most full service carriers.

[PAXboy]

Thank you edi_local, from the horse's mouth and I would not be ground or cabin staff for any rewards. By the way, EZY have just reduced the size of the carry-on allowance from (I think) 1st July.

One of the other areas that ground staff gave up on (more then 10 years ago) was the 'boarding by row numbers'. Since many pax surged forward at the first call, others thought that they would lose out and moved forward too - despite holding a numbered seat boarding card!

So the boarding time increased as folk at the front boarded first and then blocked the aisle to those who should have been allowe to board first. How often have you seen a 747 board all the Economy pax one-at-a-time? In any order? Many times.

So I get there early, do the right thing and use my experience to get the best I can out of the experience.

[edi_local]

Originally Posted by PAXboy

Thank you edi_local, from the horse's mouth and I would not be ground or cabin staff for any rewards. By the way, EZY have just reduced the size of the carry-on allowance from (I think) 1st July.

One of the other areas that ground staff gave up on (more then 10 years ago) was the 'boarding by row numbers'. Since many pax surged forward at the first call, others thought that they would lose out and moved forward too - despite holding a numbered seat boarding card!

So the boarding time increased as folk at the front boarded first and then blocked the aisle to those who should have been allowe to board first. How often have you seen a 747 board all the Economy pax one-at-a-time? In any order? Many times.

So I get there early, do the right thing and use my experience to get the best I can out of the experience.

Boarding by seat numbers was always a challenge, but when the airline I handled asked for it I always did as requested. Most airlines have some kind of system for their boarding. If they have premium cabins then they will go first, then usually disabled travelers and then people with kids etc, or vice versa. It all comes down to people simply not listening and not caring. Try as you might to regulate aircraft boarding as best you can but if the people don't listen then you've lost the battle already. All it takes is one person to come and stand right by the desk and then within 2 minutes you have a whole plane standing around in no order at all even if it's no where near boarding time.

Then when you do begin and you do your boarding calls too many people have decided they've been standing long enough so they'll board when they want to and not when the staff decide. I was once called "stupid" by a passenger (who was near the front of a full A321, thus was called for boarding last) for trying to regulate boarding control and told that "this is how flights are delayed, you know!" Clearly ground staff know nothing about boarding control!

Even if you are boarding a full flight by seat rows then it can sometimes be a bit pointless to do so as you may only have, say 10 people at the gate who are sat in the back 30 seats. This is especially the case on short turnarounds at big airports when most of the flight may still be wandering to the gate when boarding starts.

When do you then announce the next set of seats? Do you wait for all of them to come or do you go when it fizzles out, only to then have the rest of the back rows turn up when you've moved on to the people sitting in front of them?

There is no way to get it 100% correct on all flights and avoid a que forming unless you only let one person go down, find their seat and settle before letting the next one down!

[Ignore the HUD]

overhead space etc

I regularly fly LHR to Europe with BA and LH, usually the same problems with too much luggage for the overheads lockers. I have lost count of the amount of passengers with either two items of carry on luggage or things that should have been checked into the hold.
When boarding by seat numbers the people at the back of queue realize there will be virtually no overhead space to be had when they get to board.
Cant see things changing at all IMHO.

[Jarvy]

This is a world wide problem, on a flight in the US on a small Delta commuter jet a man was so desperate to prove his carry on bags would fit in the over head bin he actually broke the door causing an hours delay whilst an engineer mended it!

[MG23]

Originally Posted by Ignore the HUD

When boarding by seat numbers the people at the back of queue realize there will be virtually no overhead space to be had when they get to board.

Yes, it's always annoying when you get on the plane and the space above your seat is already filled by bags from someone sitting twenty rows behind you...

Though not as bad as when they try to stuff their enormous bag in there after you sit down and end up dropping it on your head.

[Dairyground]

One solution to the oversize baggage problem would be to set the opening on the security scanners to the maximum size for cabin baggage. anyone with a bag too big to scan would be sent back to check it, and rejoin the queue at the back.

[edi_local]

The only problem with that is that all airlines flying from that airport would have to agree on the size.

At the moment, for example, in airports like EDI or GLA that would be unworkable as it there is no set limit for all airlines. In the same terminal they have UA who have a pretty huge allowance, BA who have a very heavy allowance and BE puddle jumpers to the highlands which accommodate barely anything. There is no way you can have a one size fits all and still keep everyone happy...unless airlines start allowing more generous checked in baggage and starting to severely limit carry on baggage to just small backpacks, briefcases and purses...i.e. only what you actually need on board...like it used to be!

[Hartington]

And, I suspect, anti trust rules would forbid the airlines from "conniving" to set a standard size/weight.

On the other hand if governments got together anything is possible. But I can't see that happening. Or would ICAO be able to do the job on safety grounds?

[DaveReidUK]

And, I suspect, anti trust rules would forbid the airlines from "conniving" to set a standard size/weight.

That's IATA's job.

[ExXB]

IATA no longer sets binding rules for carry-on baggage size and weight. While they did enjoy immunity from competition laws for decades the regulators in Canberra, Brussels, and Washington (and others) decided that setting such standards couldn't possibly be in the interests of consumers.

I think IATA still recommends carry on bag dimensions, but there is no compulsion that any airline apply them, or even accept them for interline traffic.

[DaveReidUK]

IATA no longer sets binding rules for carry-on baggage size and weight.

I don't think IATA "rules" have ever been binding for anything - after all it's a trade association, not a regulator.

But you are correct in that the policies laid out in the old "Automated Baggage Rules" (Resolutions 300/301) were deemed to be anti-competitive and have been superseded by a set of "market oriented carrier based baggage rules" (Resolution 302), summarised here:

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/stb/Doc..._Factsheet.pdf

[ExXB]

Binding in the sense that airlines submitted the IATA agreements for approval by their regulators. Once approved by said authority the agreements became mandatory for all airlines, at least those that interlined.

[PAXboy]

So ... ensuring that all airlines provide the same luggage sizes to make life easier for the passenger (and for all the staff involved at every stage of the journey) is not good for passengers?

If I was a cynical person, I'd think that the airlines had privately lobbied the regulators to stop this - just so that they could gain some perceived advantage over others and do what they want. The fact that it makes inter-lining a nightmare and increases problems for all their staff (at many levels) is as nothing to their perceived benefit of doing what they want to do.

Luckily, I'm not cynical ...