UK - Oz non stop
It's about 10,500 lhr-syd.
The GC is just under 9,200 nm:-
LHR - SYD (Nautical Miles)
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Based on those figures, every tonne you carry for 25 hours burns ---- a tonne to carry it.
On a non stop sector SYD-LHR would the winds ever favour flying a route over the North Pole?
(Distance 9,750 nm)
or via overhead Tokyo which would be circa 9,400 nm.
thing, yes am with you on the airmiles!
(Distance 9,750 nm)
or via overhead Tokyo which would be circa 9,400 nm.
thing, yes am with you on the airmiles!
Last edited by fireflybob; 10th Sep 2013 at 20:39.
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And it's not just about fuel, is it?
I cannot imagine how many flight deck crew and cabin crew would be required to staff a 20-hour..ish..flight. Flight crew often have more than one crew on very long hauls anyway, but don't now how many hours they can do before going out of hours, even when trading off. But with one set of cabin crew.....
Surely at least the cabin crew would be out of hours wouldn't they before the flight was completed, even with bunk rest.
It surely would be a complicated and expensive flight deck and cabin crew staffing issue to extend to non-stop at that length, added to the already pricey fuel issues?
I cannot imagine how many flight deck crew and cabin crew would be required to staff a 20-hour..ish..flight. Flight crew often have more than one crew on very long hauls anyway, but don't now how many hours they can do before going out of hours, even when trading off. But with one set of cabin crew.....
Surely at least the cabin crew would be out of hours wouldn't they before the flight was completed, even with bunk rest.
It surely would be a complicated and expensive flight deck and cabin crew staffing issue to extend to non-stop at that length, added to the already pricey fuel issues?
Last edited by baggersup; 10th Sep 2013 at 21:56.
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Back in the '90's I had to do LHR-SYD four times a year for three years.
Quite frankly, it was hell - and that was with BA in F. I well remember the feeling of complete despair as I sat down and contemplated 13 or so hours to SIN or BKK. This feeling was only made worse after the one hour stopover when you realised you still had another 9 hours to go. The one consolation was that flight-deck visits were the norm and I had the pleasure of a few arrivals sitting in the jump seat as we crossed Darling Harbour coming in to land.
Paradoxically then, doing it all in one go with today's electronic work and leisure technology (rather than luggable laptops with 10 minutes of battery power) might be more acceptable given that once you're on the way, that's it.
However, it still is a very long time to be on an aeroplane and as others have posted, the crewing logistics are difficult.
In 30 or so years, maybe it will be possible using space technology but until then, I think I'd still use the solution I found after the first year of my travelling there - two day stopovers in both directions.
Quite frankly, it was hell - and that was with BA in F. I well remember the feeling of complete despair as I sat down and contemplated 13 or so hours to SIN or BKK. This feeling was only made worse after the one hour stopover when you realised you still had another 9 hours to go. The one consolation was that flight-deck visits were the norm and I had the pleasure of a few arrivals sitting in the jump seat as we crossed Darling Harbour coming in to land.
Paradoxically then, doing it all in one go with today's electronic work and leisure technology (rather than luggable laptops with 10 minutes of battery power) might be more acceptable given that once you're on the way, that's it.
However, it still is a very long time to be on an aeroplane and as others have posted, the crewing logistics are difficult.
In 30 or so years, maybe it will be possible using space technology but until then, I think I'd still use the solution I found after the first year of my travelling there - two day stopovers in both directions.
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I well remember the feeling of complete despair as I sat down and contemplated 13 or so hours to SIN or BKK.
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even on the 2200 departure from Heathrow
Never, ever again.
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Under European flight time rules, would need at least five pilots (my guess would be six) per flight with dedicated bunk rest areas for n-2 of them. I leave it to you to guess what havoc that would play with the economics - after the aforementioned fuel issues.
Paxing All Over The World
One of the reasons that Concorde ended it's run was the laptop computer. In the days when time was money - saving 2.5 hours there and back was very real.
With being able to work along the way? With all the panoply of telecommunications so that you do not have to be there every time?
The number of people/companies who would pay the premium for this service? Enough to sustain the development of a new aircraft - or the heavy modification of an existing airframe? Then add the weight of the fuel and extra crew (and their resting spaces) and the cost of the extra crew.
In my view, the chances of this happening remain remote.
With being able to work along the way? With all the panoply of telecommunications so that you do not have to be there every time?
The number of people/companies who would pay the premium for this service? Enough to sustain the development of a new aircraft - or the heavy modification of an existing airframe? Then add the weight of the fuel and extra crew (and their resting spaces) and the cost of the extra crew.
In my view, the chances of this happening remain remote.
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Ive enjoyed reading your interesting points of view.
But lets not forget - we get on an aeroplane to make a journey to get somewhere no?
So if you were heading to Oz, surely doing without the transfer and airport hassle would be worth it? Instead of sitting in an airport lounge, why not sit on the enroute non-stop flight?
earlier this year my wife and i went to the Maldives with Emirates from LHR via Dubai. Mainly because i wanted to experience the A380 for the first time. When we eventualy landed at Male, there was a gleaming BA 777 on the Ramp freshly arrived from Gatwick. Lovely that the A380 was, i do remember looking forlornly at the BA plane and wishing we had done without the hassle of Dubai!
I see BA operate a flight from LHR to SYD on BA0015 (16 on return sector) with 1 stop. Anybody know where this stop is? I assume its to refuel? Do they ask pax to disembark and if so for how long? Do BA not accept more fare paying passengers from such stop-off to final destination? Interesting that its a 777 and not a 744.
But lets not forget - we get on an aeroplane to make a journey to get somewhere no?
So if you were heading to Oz, surely doing without the transfer and airport hassle would be worth it? Instead of sitting in an airport lounge, why not sit on the enroute non-stop flight?
earlier this year my wife and i went to the Maldives with Emirates from LHR via Dubai. Mainly because i wanted to experience the A380 for the first time. When we eventualy landed at Male, there was a gleaming BA 777 on the Ramp freshly arrived from Gatwick. Lovely that the A380 was, i do remember looking forlornly at the BA plane and wishing we had done without the hassle of Dubai!
I see BA operate a flight from LHR to SYD on BA0015 (16 on return sector) with 1 stop. Anybody know where this stop is? I assume its to refuel? Do they ask pax to disembark and if so for how long? Do BA not accept more fare paying passengers from such stop-off to final destination? Interesting that its a 777 and not a 744.
I see BA operate a flight from LHR to SYD on BA0015 (16 on return sector) with 1 stop. Anybody know where this stop is?
I assume it's to refuel?
But I'm guessing that you mean is it just a refuelling stop? No, BA carry LHR-SIN and SIN-SYD passengers as well as those flying LHR-SYD.
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 11th Sep 2013 at 19:26.
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As a SLF, 7-10y international I find myself asking "when did I last get on a plane and on landing mid-trip be told 'oh, you can all stay in the craft while we refuel and clean around you' folks" and think: nevah. nevah nevah evah in the last 12 years of this ritual, never have I been told, a refuel is stay-on-plane.
If it lands, they want you off it.
Love to know there's still another way, but for the majors, thats how I see it. SIN/LAX/HKK/BKK/DBX/NRT which is pretty much all of the ones you hit doing east or west, Austraya to Yoorp
If it lands, they want you off it.
Love to know there's still another way, but for the majors, thats how I see it. SIN/LAX/HKK/BKK/DBX/NRT which is pretty much all of the ones you hit doing east or west, Austraya to Yoorp
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given that we have already established that no aircraft in service has the range to fly LHR-SYD non-stop
On the contrary, haven't we infact established that certain aircraft in service CAN fly non-stop on this route?
But yeees, you get my drift
On the contrary, haven't we infact established that certain aircraft in service CAN fly non-stop on this route?
But yeees, you get my drift
On the contrary, haven't we infact established that certain aircraft in service CAN fly non-stop on this route?
As a SLF, 7-10y international I find myself asking "when did I last get on a plane and on landing mid-trip be told 'oh, you can all stay in the craft while we refuel and clean around you' folks" and think: nevah. nevah nevah evah in the last 12 years of this ritual, never have I been told, a refuel is stay-on-plane.
If it lands, they want you off it.
Love to know there's still another way, but for the majors, thats how I see it. SIN/LAX/HKK/BKK/DBX/NRT which is pretty much all of the ones you hit doing east or west, Austraya to Yoorp
If it lands, they want you off it.
Love to know there's still another way, but for the majors, thats how I see it. SIN/LAX/HKK/BKK/DBX/NRT which is pretty much all of the ones you hit doing east or west, Austraya to Yoorp
One issue is the mix of passengers. SQ decided make their SIN - EWR/LAX flights business class only presumably because J passengers are time sensitive and value non stop services and are willing to pay a premium. Long distance is a lot more bearable in premium and a full fuel load can be carried with only 100 pax + crew in a 345. Even so the economics don't appear to be working and SQ are dropping the two routes.
I've just been checking the International Passenger Survey. Whilst the UK - Oz market is around 3m one-way trips annually only about 250,000 are travelling on business. I'm not sure what proportion are LON - SYD, lets say 100,000 p.a. If you could capture half of this market you could probably fill a 777LR in all F/J config (maybe even a little W not all business pax travel in premium). A 777LR neo with next generation engines & other enhancements could probably fly non stop in both directions and (easier in the eastbound direction). However would manufacturers be able to make a business case to certify an aircraft that would only few a sell models? The 77L is not a large seller, certainly not compared with the 77W.
So yes it could be done but making it work is another matter.
I've just been checking the International Passenger Survey. Whilst the UK - Oz market is around 3m one-way trips annually only about 250,000 are travelling on business. I'm not sure what proportion are LON - SYD, lets say 100,000 p.a. If you could capture half of this market you could probably fill a 777LR in all F/J config (maybe even a little W not all business pax travel in premium). A 777LR neo with next generation engines & other enhancements could probably fly non stop in both directions and (easier in the eastbound direction). However would manufacturers be able to make a business case to certify an aircraft that would only few a sell models? The 77L is not a large seller, certainly not compared with the 77W.
So yes it could be done but making it work is another matter.