American Airport Security A Laughing Stock!
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Nobody's calling nobody a liar, any way up.
But the story, as reported at the head of this thread, and re-reported in The Grauniad today, is told from one side only - that of the aggrieved passenger and her US lawyer. Bear in mind that US lawyers are not ethically bound to stick to the truth. There is only the briefest response from US law enforcement (in The Grainuad) concerning a possibly-different state of affairs than what the suspect described. In other words, this stream of outrage at the awful violations visited upon an innocent passenger is based solely on what she says happened to her.
Apparently, there is surveillance video of the security breach which sparked the incident. Let's wait and see what that shows, shall we? She claims that she was "waved through" security checks by security personnel, something I have an awfully hard time believing. But the tape will tell the tale.
The strength and vehemence of her protestations about her treatment after her arrest leads me to have suspicions. There seems to be an awful lot of concentration on the alleged indignities of her incarceration (welcome to jail, folks, you're not in Kansas anymore) and a tendency to gloss over exactly what happened that caused it.
If it is found (as I suspect) that she slipped through a security checkpoint because she was in a hurry, I wonder how big and bold that will play in the newspapers?
llater,
llamas
But the story, as reported at the head of this thread, and re-reported in The Grauniad today, is told from one side only - that of the aggrieved passenger and her US lawyer. Bear in mind that US lawyers are not ethically bound to stick to the truth. There is only the briefest response from US law enforcement (in The Grainuad) concerning a possibly-different state of affairs than what the suspect described. In other words, this stream of outrage at the awful violations visited upon an innocent passenger is based solely on what she says happened to her.
Apparently, there is surveillance video of the security breach which sparked the incident. Let's wait and see what that shows, shall we? She claims that she was "waved through" security checks by security personnel, something I have an awfully hard time believing. But the tape will tell the tale.
The strength and vehemence of her protestations about her treatment after her arrest leads me to have suspicions. There seems to be an awful lot of concentration on the alleged indignities of her incarceration (welcome to jail, folks, you're not in Kansas anymore) and a tendency to gloss over exactly what happened that caused it.
If it is found (as I suspect) that she slipped through a security checkpoint because she was in a hurry, I wonder how big and bold that will play in the newspapers?
llater,
llamas
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But the tape will tell the tale.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the field of view, some cover the whole area while others are 'zoomed' in on just the archway. Also I doubt there is any audio, which might confirm or refute her claims. If the waved through bit is true, finding the person(s) who did so should be easy enough.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the field of view, some cover the whole area while others are 'zoomed' in on just the archway. Also I doubt there is any audio, which might confirm or refute her claims. If the waved through bit is true, finding the person(s) who did so should be easy enough.
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llamas
If it is found, as I suspect, that she was the victim of an inefficient and confusing security system, or simply made an honest mistake, will you eat your words publicly on this forum?
I don't know if you've ever spent time in jail for a crime you did not commit. I haven't, thank God, but if I had, I think I would be pretty pissed of at the system that managed to get me there.
If you can, just put yourself in her situation. If, perish the thought, you one day find yourself in an unfamiliar environment, on your way to a dream job, runing late, worried about making your connection and generally flustered, as air travel quite often makes people. Isn't it just possible that she may have quite understandably misread or misunderstood a security officer's instruction? Even if we assume that the security officers were not to blame, isn't it just possible that she made the kind of mistake that any of us could have made?
Did she really deserve to be thrown in jail? We know, in retrospect that she wasn't a terrorist. Isn't that something that could have been cleared up a bit sooner so she could be sent on her way?
I don't think for a moment that she deliberately circumvented the airport security. In my experience, it's usually the highly travelled business passengers who feel they virtually own the system and are too busy to be bothered with these boring repetitive security procedures.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm being parochial in this thread. I'm not, I really like America and the Americans; I do live here after all! I just can't help thinking, though, that this wouldn't have happened in the UK. American law enforcement does tend to be a little heavy-handed, to say the least!
If it is found, as I suspect, that she was the victim of an inefficient and confusing security system, or simply made an honest mistake, will you eat your words publicly on this forum?
I don't know if you've ever spent time in jail for a crime you did not commit. I haven't, thank God, but if I had, I think I would be pretty pissed of at the system that managed to get me there.
If you can, just put yourself in her situation. If, perish the thought, you one day find yourself in an unfamiliar environment, on your way to a dream job, runing late, worried about making your connection and generally flustered, as air travel quite often makes people. Isn't it just possible that she may have quite understandably misread or misunderstood a security officer's instruction? Even if we assume that the security officers were not to blame, isn't it just possible that she made the kind of mistake that any of us could have made?
Did she really deserve to be thrown in jail? We know, in retrospect that she wasn't a terrorist. Isn't that something that could have been cleared up a bit sooner so she could be sent on her way?
I don't think for a moment that she deliberately circumvented the airport security. In my experience, it's usually the highly travelled business passengers who feel they virtually own the system and are too busy to be bothered with these boring repetitive security procedures.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm being parochial in this thread. I'm not, I really like America and the Americans; I do live here after all! I just can't help thinking, though, that this wouldn't have happened in the UK. American law enforcement does tend to be a little heavy-handed, to say the least!
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Words can be slightly indigestible, but if it turns out that she only did as she was directed I'll have no problem saying that my suspicions were unfounded.
As it happens, I have been a deputy sheriff and I've seen plenty of the inside of a US jail - not, fortunately enough, on a non-voluntary basis. The proportion of people who claim that they are there without cause, and who complain mightily about the quality of the accommodations and the character of the company, would stagger you, I assure you.
Jail is not a pretty place. However, her complaints about the quality of the accommodations and the character of the company have no bearing - I say again - no bearing on whether or not she was there for cause. I dare say that the conditions for detainees and those on remand in Wandsworth or Strangeways leave a lot to be desired also. They are an unfortunate byproduct of the process of law enforcement.
I'm afraid I have to say that this comment
"Did she really deserve to be thrown in jail? We know, in retrospect that she wasn't a terrorist. "
is less-than-sanguine. Hindsight does not equal foresight.
Likewise, the fact that it now appears that she is likely not a terrorist has no bearing on whether or not she breached security measures.
You may very well be right, and she may well be the victim of the errors of others, or of her own, understandable mistake. However, I did note earlier that pax have some degree of responsibility for security also - she must be awfully naive if she felt that she could board and airplane without any security check whatever.
As to whether this would have happened in the UK - well, what would you say about the case of a US resident stopped for speeding on the M1 who spent four hours in the cells in Milton Keynes Central while the boys in blue figured out what to do with him? I've heard plenty of "could never happen HERE!" thinking in my life, and I assure you that it could, and does.
llater,
llamas
As it happens, I have been a deputy sheriff and I've seen plenty of the inside of a US jail - not, fortunately enough, on a non-voluntary basis. The proportion of people who claim that they are there without cause, and who complain mightily about the quality of the accommodations and the character of the company, would stagger you, I assure you.
Jail is not a pretty place. However, her complaints about the quality of the accommodations and the character of the company have no bearing - I say again - no bearing on whether or not she was there for cause. I dare say that the conditions for detainees and those on remand in Wandsworth or Strangeways leave a lot to be desired also. They are an unfortunate byproduct of the process of law enforcement.
I'm afraid I have to say that this comment
"Did she really deserve to be thrown in jail? We know, in retrospect that she wasn't a terrorist. "
is less-than-sanguine. Hindsight does not equal foresight.
Likewise, the fact that it now appears that she is likely not a terrorist has no bearing on whether or not she breached security measures.
You may very well be right, and she may well be the victim of the errors of others, or of her own, understandable mistake. However, I did note earlier that pax have some degree of responsibility for security also - she must be awfully naive if she felt that she could board and airplane without any security check whatever.
As to whether this would have happened in the UK - well, what would you say about the case of a US resident stopped for speeding on the M1 who spent four hours in the cells in Milton Keynes Central while the boys in blue figured out what to do with him? I've heard plenty of "could never happen HERE!" thinking in my life, and I assure you that it could, and does.
llater,
llamas
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As a diabetic on an insulin pump, I can say I was treated better in the UK than in the US as far as airport security goes. When I passed through security at Glasgow, I was nicely asked what the device was on my belt. I informed them that it was an insulin pump (No I don't carry a note from a Doctor, security gates don't pay attention to them, and for good reason) They had me show them that it was indeed a pump, and had me change the menu and then sent me on my way. In ATL, I literally had the pump "ripped" from my stomach! I notified them that I was a diabetic on a pump that is attached to my abdomen with a tube, she then proceeded to yank it off my belt and rip the tubing from my abdomen. Of course I grabbed her arm to get it back which got me detained in the backroom and treated like a criminal until the supervisor finally cleared me. No apology was given. 
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Further to steamchicken`s comments,let us not forget that a large proportion of the terrorism in the UK was funded by collections in the US.I hope the contributors have now lost their appetite having witnessed the devastating effects of terrorism closer to home on Sept.11th.
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Of Course Not...
"I just can't help thinking, though, that this wouldn't have happened in the UK"
Er, yeah thank God it only happens in the U.S, talk about self righteous indignation.
Er, yeah thank God it only happens in the U.S, talk about self righteous indignation.
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OnFinal -
well. what can one say about your experience? Obviously, it was seriously substandard, and I for one am very sorry that it happened to you.
But what it demonstrates is a concentration on security that borders on the zealous - which kind of gives the lie to the claims of "a laughing stock". There will always be instances of thoughtless excess like what you describe, but the issue there has to be training and experience on the part of the people doing the work. It must be a thankless task, and perhaps it contains more than its share of "jobsworth" personalities.
I got the impression, in my last travels, that the level of courtesy and consideration for pax had improved enormously since the days immediately after 9-11. I flew domestic about 2 weeks after 9-11 and they obviously had a long way to go in those areas. Your experience shows that there is still work to be done. As others have suggested, two or three decades of experience with these issues in Europe and the Middle East is bound to have improved the process still further.
Have a good day.
llater,
llamas
well. what can one say about your experience? Obviously, it was seriously substandard, and I for one am very sorry that it happened to you.
But what it demonstrates is a concentration on security that borders on the zealous - which kind of gives the lie to the claims of "a laughing stock". There will always be instances of thoughtless excess like what you describe, but the issue there has to be training and experience on the part of the people doing the work. It must be a thankless task, and perhaps it contains more than its share of "jobsworth" personalities.
I got the impression, in my last travels, that the level of courtesy and consideration for pax had improved enormously since the days immediately after 9-11. I flew domestic about 2 weeks after 9-11 and they obviously had a long way to go in those areas. Your experience shows that there is still work to be done. As others have suggested, two or three decades of experience with these issues in Europe and the Middle East is bound to have improved the process still further.
Have a good day.
llater,
llamas
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The yanks always go overboard about everything IMHO. Before Sep 11 they went overboard regarding lack of security, ever since there going overboard about security.
It's the innocent pax who are paying the price for all this paranoia because of the actions of a few. If they had had the proper security procedures in place in the first place it might never had to come to this. They've turned airtravel from what was once a fun experience into a paranoid nightmare for many people by their own stupid ineptness.
Emerald
It's the innocent pax who are paying the price for all this paranoia because of the actions of a few. If they had had the proper security procedures in place in the first place it might never had to come to this. They've turned airtravel from what was once a fun experience into a paranoid nightmare for many people by their own stupid ineptness.
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It is a popular misconception, perpetuated by repetition, that Sept. 11 was a direct result of the failure of airport security.
Unless there is something we have not been told, none of the weapons used were prohibited items either by US or European standards. (They are now). It is just that the terrorists chose to make the US their target. Most were living or had lived for considerable periods in Hamburg. Had they decided instead to pick a German, UK or any other airline (LY excepted) and targets in Europe, can anyone state categorically that the outcome would not have been the same ?
In fact, the US had the mechanisms to be more secure than Europe - the CAPPS and the FBI watch list. That these apparently failed miserably is an indictment of the overall intelligence system not airport security. Which makes the current concentration on this particular aspect all the more questionable. IMO of course.
Unless there is something we have not been told, none of the weapons used were prohibited items either by US or European standards. (They are now). It is just that the terrorists chose to make the US their target. Most were living or had lived for considerable periods in Hamburg. Had they decided instead to pick a German, UK or any other airline (LY excepted) and targets in Europe, can anyone state categorically that the outcome would not have been the same ?
In fact, the US had the mechanisms to be more secure than Europe - the CAPPS and the FBI watch list. That these apparently failed miserably is an indictment of the overall intelligence system not airport security. Which makes the current concentration on this particular aspect all the more questionable. IMO of course.
Late this afternoon at Detroit Int'l Airport, our agent told us that a Toronto-bound passenger was found at the gate with an old-fashioned razor blade, scissors and some rope in his bag. He explained what these objects were for (nothing unusual) and was next seen on the ramp in handcuffs.
Behind us earlier while inbound to Detroit, a B-757 had declared an emergency for some unrelated problem.
Behind us earlier while inbound to Detroit, a B-757 had declared an emergency for some unrelated problem.
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Lets see - American airport security not a laughingstock - you cant be serious. The new and improved, more highly trained, diligent etc. security personnel cannot find a knife or other blade 60% to 70% of the time and miss guns 30% of the time and you do not call that a laughingstock? I travel frequently in the US on business and I can say from experience that if they spent more time looking for weapons and less time searching 90 year old wheel chair bound women and 4-7 year old children maybe they would be more successful. I have been subjected to repeated additional security screenings which I can only guess are a result of the nature of my travels, last minute arrangements, sometimes on one-way tickets - I tend to be singled out 90% of the time I fly including connecting flights. Is this effective security - searching me and my belongings after I have already spent an hour or more on a commercial airliner? Much of what they do is pure and simple window dressing for the benefit of the uninformed and the politicians who can point to "enhanced security" and prooudly claim that they are doing something to protect Americans. Scrounging around through pax luggage for tweezers and cuticle scissors is not going to stop terrorists when people can walk or run through a security checkpoint unopposed get out of sight and then require a terminal evacuation! We are paying the security types to do something, the least they can do is stop unauthorized intrusions into the secure areas.
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Well, the recent FAA reports about the numbers of weapons &c still making it past security post-9-11 are troubling, no two ways about it. Perhaps someone in the know can post data regarding the situation in other nations, so that a truer comparison can be made.
More troubling to me, perhaps, is the issue of the physical security of airports outside the terminals. When I park in the cheap seats at DTW, for example, there's nothing between me and the ramps that a decent pair of wire-cutters wouldn't solve. There are areas of the over-underpasses to the new midfield terminal where a determined scrambler wouldn't even need the wirecutters. And vast tracts of fence, especially to the West, where one could work at getting onto the runways and taxiways completely unobserved. One hopes that surveillance and electronic security measures are in place, but how to know?
At Oakland-Pontiac, the airport perimeter includes significant areas of industrial parks - for want of a better term. Mostly aviation-related, to be sure, but anyone can pretty much drive in and out of the airport at any time. At which point, the entire ramp area is open to anyone who wants to go there. And 737's and such fly in and out of there.
A razor blade, scissors and a rope? Where has this guy been living for the last eight months? Oh, in Canada, maybe? Well, that explains it.
llater,
llamas
More troubling to me, perhaps, is the issue of the physical security of airports outside the terminals. When I park in the cheap seats at DTW, for example, there's nothing between me and the ramps that a decent pair of wire-cutters wouldn't solve. There are areas of the over-underpasses to the new midfield terminal where a determined scrambler wouldn't even need the wirecutters. And vast tracts of fence, especially to the West, where one could work at getting onto the runways and taxiways completely unobserved. One hopes that surveillance and electronic security measures are in place, but how to know?
At Oakland-Pontiac, the airport perimeter includes significant areas of industrial parks - for want of a better term. Mostly aviation-related, to be sure, but anyone can pretty much drive in and out of the airport at any time. At which point, the entire ramp area is open to anyone who wants to go there. And 737's and such fly in and out of there.
A razor blade, scissors and a rope? Where has this guy been living for the last eight months? Oh, in Canada, maybe? Well, that explains it.
llater,
llamas
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Security
I am just back from a trip to the US, flew into LAX and onto LAS with AA, interestingly.....at the boarding gate at LAX, some passengers were subjected to a full detailed examination, including wanding, check of shoes, hand search of carry-on baggage, and a very thorough hands on body search.
Full marks to the security people for their attention, but they lost all my confidence when it was quite clear that the only passengers being subjected to this attention, where all non US nationals. I counted 21 people in the line behind me, and watched as all where checked, all carrried European passports.
Discrimination or what, or maybe there are no security threats from people carrying US passports
Full marks to the security people for their attention, but they lost all my confidence when it was quite clear that the only passengers being subjected to this attention, where all non US nationals. I counted 21 people in the line behind me, and watched as all where checked, all carrried European passports.
Discrimination or what, or maybe there are no security threats from people carrying US passports
I find myself shaking my head at the Yank bashing. I am an airline pilot in the U.S. I guarantee I go through more security checks than the lot of you combined. I find them to be responsible and reasonable in scope. The only relief offered is front of the line privledges. I go through the same inspection you do, even in uniform, and If I can do it without complaining you should also. Then again you limeys love to complain about anything and everything.
