Carry On Baggage - What A Mess
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
From: Cape Town / UK / Europe
edi local excellent posting and you are right. It is nevertheless incumbent on the airlines, who have allowed this to happen, to find a solution.
It is not reasonable to expect passengers to check in valuables ( http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ml#post7148349). My solution would be to charge for hand baggage over a certain size and/or weight. Then we come onto definitions of what is 'reasonable' for the 'average' passenger, and we know that no passenger in the history of aviation has ever been 'average' or 'reasonable', nor will this ever come to pass!
Yep.
It is not reasonable to expect passengers to check in valuables ( http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...ml#post7148349). My solution would be to charge for hand baggage over a certain size and/or weight. Then we come onto definitions of what is 'reasonable' for the 'average' passenger, and we know that no passenger in the history of aviation has ever been 'average' or 'reasonable', nor will this ever come to pass!
Airlines, as usual, are damned if they do and damned if they don't
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
From: East Midlands
I'll freely admit that when I travel, I push the boundaries on hand baggage both in terms of weight and pieces. Why? Because I often travel with £10k+ worth of camera gear which I need to use when I get where I'm going. When an airline commits to: (a) not lose it even temporarily, (b) not allow it to be stolen, and (c) not damage it in any way - then I'll happily check my 20kg+/£10k+ of camera gear because I really don't like to lugging it around airports and onto and off of aircraft. I've learned that being a high-tier member in the frequent flyer program helps - airlines typically don't tend to pick fights with their better customers and are far less rigourous with carry on checks with premium/frequent-flyer checkin and boarding - so I try to stick to one alliance and stay a status-passenger. And quite simply, if an airline tries to inch- and pound-pinch with carry on bags I won't travel with them again - their loss not mine.
Mine my be an extreme example and I'm not suggesting I or anyone else who carries valuable gear should get special treatment or be an exception, but the process needs to support our requirements to take valuable stuff with us rather than just take a simplistic and naive one [low] size and weight fits all approach. I've had checked bags not turn up for several days on a number of occasions (FRA, MAN, MXP, DXB, KUL, BHX, MAD, come to mind), I've had contents taken from my checked bag at least once (GVA-FRA-BHX) and the items were never recovered, and I've had my bag damaged several times. Airlines have it within their remit to sort the carry on baggage problem out by providing a more reliable, quicker and secure checked baggage service - and I'd happily pay a reasonable fee to check my stuff should they do so - but they can't or don't want to do it. Until they do, I for one - and I suspect many others - will continue to haul stuff onto aeroplanes and yes, sorry, we will continue to argue with check in and gate staff if necessary too, particularly if we're close to but none the less within the rules.
The bottom line is - the checked baggage process is broken and that's why there's so much carry on. Until the airlines fix the problems with the broken process, passengers will continue to try to carry on as much as possible.
Andy
Mine my be an extreme example and I'm not suggesting I or anyone else who carries valuable gear should get special treatment or be an exception, but the process needs to support our requirements to take valuable stuff with us rather than just take a simplistic and naive one [low] size and weight fits all approach. I've had checked bags not turn up for several days on a number of occasions (FRA, MAN, MXP, DXB, KUL, BHX, MAD, come to mind), I've had contents taken from my checked bag at least once (GVA-FRA-BHX) and the items were never recovered, and I've had my bag damaged several times. Airlines have it within their remit to sort the carry on baggage problem out by providing a more reliable, quicker and secure checked baggage service - and I'd happily pay a reasonable fee to check my stuff should they do so - but they can't or don't want to do it. Until they do, I for one - and I suspect many others - will continue to haul stuff onto aeroplanes and yes, sorry, we will continue to argue with check in and gate staff if necessary too, particularly if we're close to but none the less within the rules.
The bottom line is - the checked baggage process is broken and that's why there's so much carry on. Until the airlines fix the problems with the broken process, passengers will continue to try to carry on as much as possible.
Andy
Last edited by EastMids; 23rd April 2012 at 10:14.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 909
Likes: 3
From: Glasgow
EastMids,
You could save yourself all that trouble of having to hump around that D4, and various Nikkor 16mm, 80mm, 500mm and 600mm lenses, filters and chargers by using the iPhone. After all, aren't we all told that it is just as good, if not better, than these expensive toys?
Actually, I can understand, and sympathise, withyour problem as I suffered from the thefts, broken bags, lost bags scarios quite a lot as well. Is why I only take carry on baggage.
I carry a Nikon plus one zoom lens. Don't even take a monopod or gorilla pod. The Mrs carrys the Panasonic GH-1 for videoing. The GH-1 is crap as a stills camera in low light. Would love to take an additional few lenses, but I do stay within weight and size limits. But then photography is not my job.
May I be really nosey and enquire as to what you photograph for your work?
You could save yourself all that trouble of having to hump around that D4, and various Nikkor 16mm, 80mm, 500mm and 600mm lenses, filters and chargers by using the iPhone. After all, aren't we all told that it is just as good, if not better, than these expensive toys?
Actually, I can understand, and sympathise, withyour problem as I suffered from the thefts, broken bags, lost bags scarios quite a lot as well. Is why I only take carry on baggage.
I carry a Nikon plus one zoom lens. Don't even take a monopod or gorilla pod. The Mrs carrys the Panasonic GH-1 for videoing. The GH-1 is crap as a stills camera in low light. Would love to take an additional few lenses, but I do stay within weight and size limits. But then photography is not my job.
May I be really nosey and enquire as to what you photograph for your work?
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
The checked in bag system is not broken!!
It works 99% of the time, its just the 1% that seem to come on here to justify the reason that they should be allowed to carry on what they like.
Carry on luggage is very rarely weighed, do any of you know that overhead lockers have a weight limit?
Also with more and more people filling the overhead lockers with bigger and heavier bags does this affect the c of g?
As was said earlier until there is a major incident nothing will get done.
It works 99% of the time, its just the 1% that seem to come on here to justify the reason that they should be allowed to carry on what they like.
Carry on luggage is very rarely weighed, do any of you know that overhead lockers have a weight limit?
Also with more and more people filling the overhead lockers with bigger and heavier bags does this affect the c of g?
As was said earlier until there is a major incident nothing will get done.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
From: East Midlands
The checked in bag system is not broken!!
Carry on luggage is very rarely weighed, do any of you know that overhead lockers have a weight limit?
Also with more and more people filling the overhead lockers with bigger and heavier bags does this affect the c of g?
As was said earlier until there is a major incident nothing will get done.
Andy
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 909
Likes: 3
From: Glasgow
Jarvy,
I think you will find that only one person has said he carrys too much on board - and that person has good reason.
I know I stick to the limits. I wouldn't have spent so much time producing the spreadsheet that I have, and have about eight different carry bags to fit airline requirements. Plus the fact that I have specialised low weight gear.
In your experience you say that carry on baggage is rarely weighed. When I check in to say "Hi, I'm here to fly with you today" my carry on bag is weighed 99% of the time. Perhaps it is because I tend to use small light weight rucksacks. I do not know.
When I travelled as part of a team (globally) there were always bags going missing, being broken, or being broken in to. You can't just take an airline saying to you "I'm sure you bag will turn up, where can we deliver it to you?". Our response being "some where in the jungle / desert / offshore, but certainly no where near any where". Another one that used to happen was the fact that we travelled a lot, so the lost bag never caught up with you.
In my experience, and obviously others, the 99% that you quote is "tosh".
Your experience is obviously different.
I do believe that most of us are also aware of design limitations of overhead lockers.
I would say that the checked bag system is broken. Look at most of Africa, or even London Heathrow, or Glasgow.
I think you will find that only one person has said he carrys too much on board - and that person has good reason.
I know I stick to the limits. I wouldn't have spent so much time producing the spreadsheet that I have, and have about eight different carry bags to fit airline requirements. Plus the fact that I have specialised low weight gear.
In your experience you say that carry on baggage is rarely weighed. When I check in to say "Hi, I'm here to fly with you today" my carry on bag is weighed 99% of the time. Perhaps it is because I tend to use small light weight rucksacks. I do not know.
When I travelled as part of a team (globally) there were always bags going missing, being broken, or being broken in to. You can't just take an airline saying to you "I'm sure you bag will turn up, where can we deliver it to you?". Our response being "some where in the jungle / desert / offshore, but certainly no where near any where". Another one that used to happen was the fact that we travelled a lot, so the lost bag never caught up with you.
In my experience, and obviously others, the 99% that you quote is "tosh".
Your experience is obviously different.
I do believe that most of us are also aware of design limitations of overhead lockers.
I would say that the checked bag system is broken. Look at most of Africa, or even London Heathrow, or Glasgow.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 594
Likes: 1
From: 32°55'22"S 151°46'56"E
As many of the posters on here, I travel worldwide lot and having been caught out a few times, I turned to only carrying handbaggage.
On occasions, admitedly, whilst in business I've had a handcarry weighing 35kg with manuals and documents, plus laptops and necessary equipment.
One thing I quite like about the Fokker 70/100 KLM Cityhopper flights in the UK is that they allow you to leave your handcarry at the bottom of the stairs and collect it at the bottom of the stairs on arrival at AMS, and I wish more airlines would do that.
I think the worst situation for me many years back was a bag delayed, and ended up following me around South America for two weeks, arriving at each airport just after i'd left. Another bag that I gave up all hope of ever seeing again arrived a month later completely crushed. It was flat, and everything in was flat... It was like it had been steam rolled.
I've got my hand baggage down to a tee, and can carry all my necessary documents, and several sets of clothes (no longer carry jeans!) in the one handcarry.
The worst airport i've seen for baggage delays is Miami, I pity anyone meeting a international to domestic connection within 2 hours through there.
It's easy when you travel for leisure or travel only a few times a month, and you can survive a few days. But if you genuinely travel regularly, it can be a pain in the arse risking that so called 1% chance. And all that waiting around carousels adds up quickly.
That being said, I very very rarely travel low cost airlines and avoid them unless necessary, so don't know the situation onboard those.
On occasions, admitedly, whilst in business I've had a handcarry weighing 35kg with manuals and documents, plus laptops and necessary equipment.
One thing I quite like about the Fokker 70/100 KLM Cityhopper flights in the UK is that they allow you to leave your handcarry at the bottom of the stairs and collect it at the bottom of the stairs on arrival at AMS, and I wish more airlines would do that.
I think the worst situation for me many years back was a bag delayed, and ended up following me around South America for two weeks, arriving at each airport just after i'd left. Another bag that I gave up all hope of ever seeing again arrived a month later completely crushed. It was flat, and everything in was flat... It was like it had been steam rolled.
I've got my hand baggage down to a tee, and can carry all my necessary documents, and several sets of clothes (no longer carry jeans!) in the one handcarry.
The worst airport i've seen for baggage delays is Miami, I pity anyone meeting a international to domestic connection within 2 hours through there.
It's easy when you travel for leisure or travel only a few times a month, and you can survive a few days. But if you genuinely travel regularly, it can be a pain in the arse risking that so called 1% chance. And all that waiting around carousels adds up quickly.
That being said, I very very rarely travel low cost airlines and avoid them unless necessary, so don't know the situation onboard those.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
From: moraira,spain-Norfolk, UK
In my opinion any system which only works reliably 99% of
the time is definitely broken. That's what we used to call 'normalisation of deviation'.
I once traveled with a certain
airline and didn't like the look of it's baggage tags, didn't look
strong enough or sticky enough. When challenged the check-in
staff said 'they are standard world wide'. Sure enough they came
off in transit and my baggage was only rescued due to the efforts
of the next carrier. I'm sure that someone saved his airline some
costs by purchasing cheaper tags. With other airlines you need
a knife or scissors to get the tags off. Repeat this sort of cost saving
in other areas and of course things will get lost or damaged. Not
to mention that many airports have surveillance in baggage areas
to try to stop their staff thieving.
And, yes, the overhead lockers are normally loaded far above their rather low limit.
Seems to be treated as a capacity not a load limit,
but that has been so for at least the time I have been a regular traveler, call it 40 years.
the time is definitely broken. That's what we used to call 'normalisation of deviation'.
I once traveled with a certain
airline and didn't like the look of it's baggage tags, didn't look
strong enough or sticky enough. When challenged the check-in
staff said 'they are standard world wide'. Sure enough they came
off in transit and my baggage was only rescued due to the efforts
of the next carrier. I'm sure that someone saved his airline some
costs by purchasing cheaper tags. With other airlines you need
a knife or scissors to get the tags off. Repeat this sort of cost saving
in other areas and of course things will get lost or damaged. Not
to mention that many airports have surveillance in baggage areas
to try to stop their staff thieving.
And, yes, the overhead lockers are normally loaded far above their rather low limit.
Seems to be treated as a capacity not a load limit,
but that has been so for at least the time I have been a regular traveler, call it 40 years.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
In hundreds of flights neither me or my wifes carry on bags have been measured in any way!
There will always be some who need to carry things like expensive camera gear on but maybe there should be some sort of acreditation for those.
I can only comment on the system as it affects me and the general increase in the size and weight of carry on bags over the years has got out of hand.
There just isn't room in the cheap seats for every one to take on even their allowance.
I agree that passengers who pay for the better seats should have a bit more lee way, thats one reason way we have different classes.
I can see I am banging my head against a brick wall here, so happy St.Georges day and fly safe.
There will always be some who need to carry things like expensive camera gear on but maybe there should be some sort of acreditation for those.
I can only comment on the system as it affects me and the general increase in the size and weight of carry on bags over the years has got out of hand.
There just isn't room in the cheap seats for every one to take on even their allowance.
I agree that passengers who pay for the better seats should have a bit more lee way, thats one reason way we have different classes.
I can see I am banging my head against a brick wall here, so happy St.Georges day and fly safe.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 909
Likes: 3
From: Glasgow
Jarvy,
It sounds as if you and your wife have been really lucky.
I think that most, if not all, of us agree with you that there is a problem with oversize carry on baggage and that it causes problems for other passengers. I would also state that we agree about the health & safety issues that you have raised as well.
One of the things I often see is my bag being weighed and measured, but only because I don't check a bag in. Staff are immediately suspicious that my bag will be overweight and too large. On the same flight I have seen numerous other people, who have checked in baggage, with Carry on bags that are significantly larger than mine, and obviously significantly heavier. Because they have checked a bag in they do no not get questioned. Is that right? Is that fair? No it is not. I can understand someone like EastMids not checking in his camera systems, but not everyone is a professional photographer.
As I said previously, it sounds as if you and your wife have been extremely lucky. I am really envious.
The other thing I hate is how you never ever get back the full amount of money that you have paid for things. Why should I lose out because of an airlines fault, or the airports fault? I pay for me and my bag/s to get some where. I don't mind delays. I do mind theft and damage due to incompetence and lack of consideration for other peoples possessions.
It sounds as if you and your wife have been really lucky.
I think that most, if not all, of us agree with you that there is a problem with oversize carry on baggage and that it causes problems for other passengers. I would also state that we agree about the health & safety issues that you have raised as well.
One of the things I often see is my bag being weighed and measured, but only because I don't check a bag in. Staff are immediately suspicious that my bag will be overweight and too large. On the same flight I have seen numerous other people, who have checked in baggage, with Carry on bags that are significantly larger than mine, and obviously significantly heavier. Because they have checked a bag in they do no not get questioned. Is that right? Is that fair? No it is not. I can understand someone like EastMids not checking in his camera systems, but not everyone is a professional photographer.
As I said previously, it sounds as if you and your wife have been extremely lucky. I am really envious.
The other thing I hate is how you never ever get back the full amount of money that you have paid for things. Why should I lose out because of an airlines fault, or the airports fault? I pay for me and my bag/s to get some where. I don't mind delays. I do mind theft and damage due to incompetence and lack of consideration for other peoples possessions.
Last edited by hval; 23rd April 2012 at 13:31. Reason: Clarification
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
From: East Midlands
Jarvy, don't go... I think your input into the debate is useful and for the most part, I actually agree with you. And I do think there's a problem to be solved. The big issue is that there will always be some folks - yes, me included - who claim they're the exception to the rule. Some will have "good" excuses, some won't. I don't WANT to be a special case - I just want the overall baggage process to support my travel objectives reliably and securely such that I can get where I need to go, with everything that I need to take intact and undamaged, thus allowing me to do what I need to do when I get there... I'd even pay the airline extra for that, IF they'd offer me a guarantee or at least adequate compensation (including consequential loss) if their process failed. Sadly airlines don't support those requirements through expecting me to check in valuable and delicate gear right now.
Here's some suggestions then:
hval... Nikon??? 
Nasty business!!! 
Think the C-word! 
I write and photograph for a major agency/publication which is, ironically, in the aviation/airspace arena!
Andy
Here's some suggestions then:
- Airlines should NOT be allowed to charge for checked baggage: this would, I'm sure, reduce the amount of carry-ons as more people would check bags if they didn't have to pay to check them - not with business travellers who would pay and expense, but with price-concious leisure travellers who would probably check in bags rather than carry on more often if it was free
- Airlines should set a specific size and weight for carry ons, enforce it, but allow passengers to pay extra for more weight or size: travelling with valuable or delicate equipment I would pay an fee extra to take it on board, but it'd discourage the folks with a bag full of c**p from taking it onboard
- If airlines truly wanted to reduce the weight of carry ons taken onboard by the likes of me travelling with expensive and delicate equipment that we're going to depend on when we get there, they should develop a secure checked baggage program - with a guarantee of secure, reliable and delicate handling AND/OR immediate appropriate compensation if anything was delayed, lost, broken or stolen. Again, I'd pay a reasonable amount for such a service
You could save yourself all that trouble of having to hump around that D4, and various Nikkor 16mm, 80mm, 500mm and 600mm lenses, filters and chargers... May I be really nosey and enquire as to what you photograph for your work?
Nasty business!!! Think the C-word! I write and photograph for a major agency/publication which is, ironically, in the aviation/airspace arena!
Andy
Last edited by EastMids; 23rd April 2012 at 14:09.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
I'm still here and find myself agreeing with you Eastmids.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 909
Likes: 3
From: Glasgow
Jarvy,
I agree with EastMids. Don't go. Carry on the discussion.
EastMids
Am envious of you having the job you do; well, in some ways. The pressure of getting a good photo of an aircraft that looks "different" but still shows the information that you wish to get across is not necessarily for me. Do you have a favourite aircraft for taking photographs of?
I used to be a Canon fan - all the way back to the AE-1P and Canon T90. In fact I still have my T90. Unfortunately There came a time where Canon did not produce a robust enough camera for my needs (backwoods of Africa and such like) in the price bracket I could afford, so I moved to Nikon. Nice cameras and lenses. Big shame they are so bad on their repair times. Was going to get a D800 (I want one camera that does photos and video - for weight reasons) until I realised it was a full size sensor that would mean replacing all my lenses, yet again. Also the Moire problems put me off. Will wait until the next DSLR comes out that doesn't suffer.
I agree with EastMids. Don't go. Carry on the discussion.
EastMids
Am envious of you having the job you do; well, in some ways. The pressure of getting a good photo of an aircraft that looks "different" but still shows the information that you wish to get across is not necessarily for me. Do you have a favourite aircraft for taking photographs of?
I used to be a Canon fan - all the way back to the AE-1P and Canon T90. In fact I still have my T90. Unfortunately There came a time where Canon did not produce a robust enough camera for my needs (backwoods of Africa and such like) in the price bracket I could afford, so I moved to Nikon. Nice cameras and lenses. Big shame they are so bad on their repair times. Was going to get a D800 (I want one camera that does photos and video - for weight reasons) until I realised it was a full size sensor that would mean replacing all my lenses, yet again. Also the Moire problems put me off. Will wait until the next DSLR comes out that doesn't suffer.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 649
Likes: 4
From: Edinburgh
I'm still here and find myself agreeing with you Eastmids.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.
I have seen full service carriers charge at the gate, mainly for someone who has checked in an extra bag already and then takes the mickey by bringing yet more excess baggage to the gate.
I would say that in the event of someone having extremely valuable or delicate cabin baggage which exceeds the allowance (in the case of your camera gear, EastMids) then the airline should not force that to be checked in. They should offer to tag the bag at the gate and place it in the hold and then deliver it directly to the aircraft door upon arrival. This could be pre-arranged when booking the flight and, if the airline is that way inclined, a small fee could be taken for this service, but not as much as checking a bag in.
Anyone who has oversized baggage taken off them at the gate is not given the instant delivery option, which would make it more worthwhile paying for and give people like yourself greater piece of mind as to the treatment of your equipment. If the airline cannot accommodate your bag due to a full cabin and you have stuck to all the regulations then the door pick up should be offered for free as there is no way to predict how full a cabin will get.
Of course If someone turns up with a suitcase the size of a small car, weighing 30Kg then they should check it in regardless of what's in it as that is just taking the p!ss!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
As an aside have you any tips for good pictures when I go to Oshkosh.
Now back to the subject.
So we agree on the fact that there should be an international standard for cabin baggage. I suspect my standard whould be smaller than yours, with increases for business and first.
That no airline should charge for the first checkin bag, again with incresses for the better cabins.
We also agree that there should be exceptions for certain items/professions.
So the only thing we disagree on is the state of the system. It has worked for me so we must have been lucky or just that we don't travel to certain parts of the world.
I also wish that the current standards are enforced but it seems that the current way is not to.
Now back to the subject.
So we agree on the fact that there should be an international standard for cabin baggage. I suspect my standard whould be smaller than yours, with increases for business and first.
That no airline should charge for the first checkin bag, again with incresses for the better cabins.
We also agree that there should be exceptions for certain items/professions.
So the only thing we disagree on is the state of the system. It has worked for me so we must have been lucky or just that we don't travel to certain parts of the world.
I also wish that the current standards are enforced but it seems that the current way is not to.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 649
Likes: 4
From: Edinburgh
That's the only one off the top of my head which has varying limits for hand baggage.
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
From: Cape Town / UK / Europe
there should be exceptions for certain items/professions.
By all means have differential allowances according to fare/class paid or even FF level but not this.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
Maybe I was being kind to eastmids. Have seen some TV people at checkin with letters from the airline that allowed them to carry their camera on. So I was thinking of that sort of thing.
I have worked in and around the haulage industry most of my life so know nothing is 100%.
I have worked in and around the haulage industry most of my life so know nothing is 100%.