The negative aspects of LCC's
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
The younger generations are learning all these tricks of the new trade. It's manily us that have known the 'before' that have problems and irritations with the 'after'.
In a few years time, the ones now aged 10, will be as astounded to hear about full service, as we are about the Empire Flying Boats, landing on the Nile and then all the pax going into the hotel and having dinner at the captains table in full black tie!
It's just the changing times.
In a few years time, the ones now aged 10, will be as astounded to hear about full service, as we are about the Empire Flying Boats, landing on the Nile and then all the pax going into the hotel and having dinner at the captains table in full black tie!
It's just the changing times.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,290
Likes: 9
From: BHX LXR ASW
Ah yes PAXboy those were indeed the days, when cabin crews looked after you and smiled when you requested something and gave you little things like nuts, hot towels, meals endless rounds of tea and coffee.
I hope today's 10 year olds who become tomorrow's cabin crew learn how to smile and won't be astounded by customer service.
I hope today's 10 year olds who become tomorrow's cabin crew learn how to smile and won't be astounded by customer service.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
From: Spain
I do find LCC bashing quite silly. I travel from Valencia to Alicante by coach. It's a two hour journey. I don't expet anything except to get to my destination on time, which I usually do. A journey from Bristol to Valencia by plane also takes two hours. The only practical difference between the coach and the aircraft is the time one has to spend in the airport. Who do LCC SLF expect anything more than a bus ride? Humans - I'll never understand 'em!
Joined: Apr 2009
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
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From: Darkest Lincs
Sunnyjohn [and yes it is very sunny here in Spain at the moment] - you forgot to mention that the coach company representative at the door of the coach does not weigh your luggage and charge you €40+ if it is 1kg too heavy.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Hotel Tango
These conveyances are only superficially similar. In these points 'vehicle' means a coach or aircraft:
Once LCCs started, the coach owners were really in trouble because they can never beat the speed. Since 99.99% of pax have shown (across the world) that price is the only point - the comfort of coaches is still going to have a hard job to win. However, since their overheads are so much less, they can give more leg room and so on.
... coach travel has become progressively more comfortable over the years.
- Construction cost of vehicles is rather different.
- Cost of insuring the vehicle is rather different.
- Cost of fuel per passenger mile.
- One vehicle runs on roads built by the state and which are paid for by fuel duty and toll taxes. The other uses dedicated pathways that are charged to the owner and include ATC.
- Cost of maintenance.
- Cost of overnight parking differs between a coach park and an airport.
- Not sure if coach stations charge per arrival and per departure, or a flat fee?
- Cost of safety legislation placed on owner of vehicle differs.
- Cost of driver due to legislation of duty/rest hours differs.
- Cost of vehicle standing idle for a week differs.
- Etcetera.
Once LCCs started, the coach owners were really in trouble because they can never beat the speed. Since 99.99% of pax have shown (across the world) that price is the only point - the comfort of coaches is still going to have a hard job to win. However, since their overheads are so much less, they can give more leg room and so on.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 3,423
Likes: 1
From: world
PAXboy
Thank you for the lesson
but I think that you misunderstood my comment.
Don't forget that there continue to be a significant number of people who will just not fly regardless how cheap (today) and fast it may be. I was merely alluding to the improving standards for those who choose to travel by coach relative to the deteriorating standards for those who choose to travel by air. I was not commenting in terms of one mode of transport competing with the other from A to B.
Thank you for the lesson
but I think that you misunderstood my comment.Don't forget that there continue to be a significant number of people who will just not fly regardless how cheap (today) and fast it may be. I was merely alluding to the improving standards for those who choose to travel by coach relative to the deteriorating standards for those who choose to travel by air. I was not commenting in terms of one mode of transport competing with the other from A to B.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 490
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From: Spain
Oh dear, PAXboy, you did rather miss the point. What I posted was:
Customers have very little interest in how the conveyence is built, who operates it, or what colour the captain's socks are. All we want to do is to get from A to B as cheaply and quickly as possible. You, sir, may well be interested in these things. The bloke in the seat next to me - be it coach or plane - is not.
The only practical difference between the coach and the aircraft is the time one has to spend in the airport.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 92
From: south of Cirencester, north of Lyneham
Runway
>Where do we put the trains in this story? <
In the UK, you don't. They are definitely not low cost - apparently the most expensive in Europe. In many cases, they are overcrowded, dirty and uncomfortable, while the reliability and time keeping is not as good as it might be. Additionally, there is no flexibility left for when things go wrong, because of privatisation and the number of different companies who blame each other.
Personally, I want the full service that we used to get, and I am prepared to pay for it.
>Where do we put the trains in this story? <
In the UK, you don't. They are definitely not low cost - apparently the most expensive in Europe. In many cases, they are overcrowded, dirty and uncomfortable, while the reliability and time keeping is not as good as it might be. Additionally, there is no flexibility left for when things go wrong, because of privatisation and the number of different companies who blame each other.
Personally, I want the full service that we used to get, and I am prepared to pay for it.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 594
Likes: 1
From: 32°55'22"S 151°46'56"E
Sunnyjohn, it would be nice if the LCC's were as easy as they claim to be and as easy as travelling by coach.
The reason we value business class so much is because it actually makes it easy...
In Asia the LCC's actually are often quite simple, the price you see is the price you get and you add the things you want. Easy!
The reason we value business class so much is because it actually makes it easy...
In Asia the LCC's actually are often quite simple, the price you see is the price you get and you add the things you want. Easy!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 13
From: UK
Radeng, if you walk into the station and ask to travel now our trains can be expensive there's no doubt. But a little flexibility and planning can mean significant savings. It's a bit like the difference between walking into Heathrow and saying "I want a ticket on the next flight to New York" and going to a website a week or so beforehand and seeing what you can find - the difference in price can be eye watering.
In many ways the fare structure on the railway is little different to airline fares - not easy to understand and illogical. I'm sure if you approach buying a train ticket the same way you approach a plane ticket you'll see dividends.
Oh, and it's not simply about advance purchase. There's a little know rule on the trains that you can hold more than one ticket, combined end on end, for a rail journey. The train has to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to the next (you don't have to get off). Living where I do (125 miles from London) if I want to go to London I either buy in advance or I buy tickets at the station, on the day, Home - A, A-B, B-C and C-London. Brings the fare down from something over GBP70 for a day return to just under 40 using the same trains (and that includes a Travelcard) and advance can be as little as GBP12 each way.
In many ways the fare structure on the railway is little different to airline fares - not easy to understand and illogical. I'm sure if you approach buying a train ticket the same way you approach a plane ticket you'll see dividends.
Oh, and it's not simply about advance purchase. There's a little know rule on the trains that you can hold more than one ticket, combined end on end, for a rail journey. The train has to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to the next (you don't have to get off). Living where I do (125 miles from London) if I want to go to London I either buy in advance or I buy tickets at the station, on the day, Home - A, A-B, B-C and C-London. Brings the fare down from something over GBP70 for a day return to just under 40 using the same trains (and that includes a Travelcard) and advance can be as little as GBP12 each way.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 490
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From: Spain
In a recent EU-wide survey on railways, believe it or not, UK railways came top of the list for good timekeeping. Shows you how bad the rest are! However, here in Spain, the introduction of the AVE from Madrid to Valencia has seen a significant transfer of customers from aircraft to train, most of whom are commuters and business travellers. If you book well ahead (as already mentioned for the UK railways) you can find a fare that is the same or cheaper than the equivalent flight and, because rail is city centre to city centre, the overall journey is faster.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,173
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From: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Ah yes PAXboy those were indeed the days, when cabin crews looked after you and smiled when you requested something and gave you little things like nuts, hot towels, meals endless rounds of tea and coffee.
The last one about cabin staff being better will partly be a trick of memory I suspect.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 594
Likes: 1
From: 32°55'22"S 151°46'56"E
As for the railways, i've no idea where they get the figures from. Firstly I've never found particularly nice train in Europe, whether it be the TGV or whatever, and have been in so called 'First' in France, Holland, Spain and Italy. In france trying to book from Nice to Paris cost an absolute arm and a leg. Nice to Monaco was expensive enough...
Italy was expensive as well, and the trains were horrendous.
My experience on the North Eastern lines and the Virgin Crosscountry have always been fantastic, Wi-Fi comfortable seats and table service in First. Even the transpennine express into Manchester Airport is great in First Class. Admittedly I've never commuted or been on many other routes in the UK, but always found the trains to be very good.
I've done the Eurostar to France and preferred it to flying, much more civilised.
Italy was expensive as well, and the trains were horrendous.
My experience on the North Eastern lines and the Virgin Crosscountry have always been fantastic, Wi-Fi comfortable seats and table service in First. Even the transpennine express into Manchester Airport is great in First Class. Admittedly I've never commuted or been on many other routes in the UK, but always found the trains to be very good.
I've done the Eurostar to France and preferred it to flying, much more civilised.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 3,423
Likes: 1
From: world
Do I want to pay several hundred quid more for some nuts, a towel and "Tea? Coffee?" Of course not.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 92
From: south of Cirencester, north of Lyneham
Try Switzerland for clean on time trains. I've never had a problem in Germany, either. Including a dining car attendent who when asked for a receipt, responded (in English) 'How much do you want it made out for?'
I've had a number of occasions in BR days when things went t*ts up, that 'Special Stop Notices' were issued to get me home or to the airport. On one occasion, they even started a special to get me home: by the time it got from Ramsgate to Dartford for me, it had 12 coaches and full load of pax for London! Plus I'd been given a cup of tea in the Station Foreman's office.
Sure as hell wouldn't happen now. Eurostar I don't find as good as Club Europe, and it's no more reliable - especially if it's very cold! Don't forget December 2010 when the steam loco took the commuters home, too.
I've had a number of occasions in BR days when things went t*ts up, that 'Special Stop Notices' were issued to get me home or to the airport. On one occasion, they even started a special to get me home: by the time it got from Ramsgate to Dartford for me, it had 12 coaches and full load of pax for London! Plus I'd been given a cup of tea in the Station Foreman's office.
Sure as hell wouldn't happen now. Eurostar I don't find as good as Club Europe, and it's no more reliable - especially if it's very cold! Don't forget December 2010 when the steam loco took the commuters home, too.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 889
Likes: 3
From: UK
For European travel it is always good to check out BA.
The LCC's with their added charges don't always work out as cheap.
No baggage charge, two pieces of hand luggage, free drinks, snack/meal and the back up of a major player in air travel. Plus, of course, clear pricing.
I use Monarch and Easyjet but refuse, at any price, to use Ryanair, I am afraid.
The LCC's with their added charges don't always work out as cheap.
No baggage charge, two pieces of hand luggage, free drinks, snack/meal and the back up of a major player in air travel. Plus, of course, clear pricing.
I use Monarch and Easyjet but refuse, at any price, to use Ryanair, I am afraid.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Redefining the essential of air travel
In other words what to we consider essential on a flight - that we always buy on a low cost or appreciate on a full service carrier?
I take a printed boarding pass is an item on that list. As assigned seat maybe, a free glass of water?
Rwy in Sight
I take a printed boarding pass is an item on that list. As assigned seat maybe, a free glass of water?
Rwy in Sight
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Hi folks, yes I missed the point on that good and proper!!! 
Not sure how many tipples I'd had or what sort of mood I was in!!!!!! Just me opening my big mouth - as usual.
So I'll stay out of this thread now ...
Not sure how many tipples I'd had or what sort of mood I was in!!!!!! Just me opening my big mouth - as usual.So I'll stay out of this thread now ...