Air India detains passengers at Gatwick for 9 hours

[oscarisapc]

I read a news report that an Air India flight to London Heathrow had to land at London Gatwick because of fog. For various reasons the flight could not depart for Heathrow for nine hours during which time the passengers were kept on board and forbidden to leave. My question is why? Is there any law that says you can't leave a flight until it has reached its declared destination? Flights are diverted all the time due to bad weather and the usual procedure is for passengers to be taken to their final destination by coach with the luggage following later. It is not as though the flight had landed in another country. It had landed at one London airport instead of another. Many passengers said Gatwick was as good as Heathrow as far as they were concerned. Air India obviously knew that the flight had ended because the pilots hours were declared spent and part of the delay was waiting for a relief crew. Unless it is a flight where a relief crew is already on board, for very obvious reasons you can't stop pilots flying in excess of their hours during a continuing flight so the flight was over as far as the airline was concerned. This sounds like a case of false imprisonment to me. The airline can't have it both ways - either the flight was over or it wasn't. The Police were called to deal with the passengers complaints and to prevent a breach of the peace - not to release them from being falsely imprisoned against their will. The Police were also reported to have stated that the passengers were in need of refreshment. It doesn't look good for the airline's competence or care. Any comments?

[redsnail]

Not wishing to comment on the specifics on this case but to get access to coaches to drive the pax to LHR is not as easy as it sounds.
It is possible that Air India did not have a handling presence in Gatwick and that makes arranging any thing extremely difficult. Such as access to a gate or stairs and the like.

However, having said that, 8 hours on the aeroplane does sound excessive and I am sure questions will be asked.

[ExXB]

Originally Posted by oscarisapc

My question is why? Is there any law that says you can't leave a flight until it has reached its declared destination?... Any comments?

No there is no law, rule or regulation that says pax cannot leave a flight at an unscheduled intermediate point. Think of 11 September 2011 when literally hundreds of US bound flights landed at Canadian airports on both coasts. There may be customs / airport issues but since Gatwick has a large sterile area these probably were not a factor here. The decision likely rested with the Airline who had an impossible task estimating or even guessing when they could go.

in this case I would say that Air India very much wanted to complete the flight to Heathrow as soon as possible. Of course that was where many passengers wanted and expected to go, that's where AI infrastructure was, and that's where the new crew and passengers were for the next sector. Selectively deplaning for people happy with Gatwick also problematic due baggage reconciliation. Even ignoring security issues passengers would not be happy without their bags for a couple of days (or having to get out to Heathrow to get them)

Weather is very unpredictable and after Heathrow reduced flights to deal with the fog various aircraft had to divert. All of them would be put into a queue to complete their flights ASAP but with Heathrow full from 0800 to 2200 squeezing them in once the flow control was lifted would have been very difficult.

A typical creeping delay. Everyone hoping that the flight could head off to Heathrow at a moment's notice once flow control was removed. Tick, tick, tick, Disembarking would be counter-productive as they wouldn't be even in the queue if they were not ready to go. An hour later, still no improvement, an hour after that, things may have eased and diverted flights being 'slotted-in' but likely a long list. An hour later the original crew probably timed out. Decision made to call crew in from Heathrow by surface means, taking flight out of 'ready to go status'. Finding transport etc. would take some time but probably not more than an hour to an hour 1/2 getting them their. Decision made not to disembark passengers to be ready to go when new crew arrived. New crew delayed another hour at security, passport control, flight briefing, etc.

So new crew on board and 'ready to go' 5 1/2 hours after landing. Fog at Heathrow gets back again - crew waits for OK to go for another 2 1/2 hours and off they go 1/2 hour to Heathrow and you are up to nine hours.

Believe that there was a twitterer on board providing a running commentary. Otherwise this would never have 'news'. 9 hours is probably a little extreme and making decisions on what should have happened, in hindsight, is quite easy. However it isn't on the day without an accurate crystal ball.

[James 1077]

I still don't understand why people put up with it. If I was on a plane, on the ground, for more than a couple of hours without being fed, watered and entertained then I would just walk off it. If I had to I would blow the slides to get off.

Yes, they'll probably arrest me but nothing will come from that in the UK. And I'm sure large numbers of people would follow so it is unlikely that they would even arrest.

Don't put it up with it and it will stop happening!

[crewmeal]

Maybe AI's credit rating with the handling agents is poor. Maybe no handling agent had been appointed for AI. if it had gone to MAN or BHX maybe the pax would have been off after it had come on to stand.

AI's rating in the world is not the best me thinks!

[ExXB]

James,
Leaving aside the consequences to you, and I think you are understating them significantly - but that's for another thread.

Blowing the slides would likely lead to panic on the aircraft, leading to an unsupervised exodus from the aircraft. Minor injuries would occur, scrapes bruises, broken arms, ankles, legs. Serious injuries are also possible. With 300 plus passengers milling around the ramp the airport would likely freeze all aircraft movements in the vicinity - and likely the same with ground movements until all passengers are accounted for. Other flights both inbound and outbound would begin pulling delays, compounding the existing problem.

And since the bottles and slides would have to be replaced (as many as 10 sets) you are likely adding many more hours before the flight could be completed

Even if it was only one door you would be making the situation much worse for everybody else.

From what I've seen in the press and here I've seen nothing that suggests that the passengers will maltreated. Since there are no complaints about heat, food, toilets, etc. I have to assume that AI treated their customers well. OK, so everyone would be bored to tears sitting in a tube for hours on end, but that's what air travel is all about, n'est pas ?

This problem was not AI's fault, and it appears they did reasonably well given the circumstances. This situation will be costing them a bundle, all because of the crap infrastructure at Heathrow that can't handle a little fog.

[Piltdown Man]

How hard can it be?

ExXB - I have read you posts and I wish we had (more) people like you to explain the realities of air travel to those affected when it goes 'wrong'. But I think you may have been a little to kind to LHR. That airport runs day in, day out well above what might be described as its 'rated capacity' which means as soon as the slightest hiccup occurs, airline operations grind to a halt. The fault certainly doesn't lie with ATC nor the airside operations people. Without their constant intervention the airport wouldn't get a fraction of the movements it does. No, the fault lies with senior management of the airport and to a degree the government. Unless they get their act together, LHR will become a regional airport feeding the likes of FRA/CDG/AMS. But there again, maybe that's not such a silly idea...

[Llademos]

Not AI's fault? While the diversion wasn't, the fact that a plane load of passengers sat for nine hours on a first-world country's runway with plenty of infrastructure available smacks of incompetence. And being held on an aircraft for eighteen hours (flight time plus time on the ground) is maltreatment - try it at home and see how you get on.

If they couldn't get a bus to take the passengers to LHR, National Express do one every ten minutes or so. I also understand that there are things called taxis available.

[radeng]

The BBC report said there was no food or drink.

So if the flight crew are out of hours and deplane (as was stated in a news report, what about the cabin crew? They would be way over discretion!

And how come AI haven't got CAT III capability, then? Or was LHR closed - in which case, surely we would have heard about it.

[PAXboy]

There is one item of REALLY GOOD news. This is unlikely to happen again.

The next time any carrier lands up at a LGW due fog at the other place - they will be sure to feed and water them first and then make a deceision to get them off and bus them, with their luggage to arrive later. Since a carrier rep could have been at LGW within an hour of the a/c landing to direct ops at first hand - you can be sure that will happen next time.

Yes, these folks have been VERY unfortunate but the public rumpus - yay for social networks and customers not afraid to shout in public - then this has been a wonderful lesson for everyone.

I am not joking. What they need to do now is publically apologise and send a little compensation to each pax. It's called damage limitation. This has been nasty but if we see this happen to AI again - then you will know that they ARE incompetent.

[TSR2]

Why could they not have simply transported the passengers from the plane into the terminal building airside just like a transit stop. Would have been far more comfortable with food and drink available.

[PAXboy]

That is the question TSR2 and their mgmt OUGHT to now be trying to answer it. If their senior mgmt (in India) are anything like other senior mgmts I have met they will be trying to blame the underlings. The underlings will be tryiing to point out that the rules they have been given to operate under did not permit them to take any action.

But then, I'm a dreadful cynic.

[Hotel Tango]

This problem was not AI's fault, and it appears they did reasonably well given the circumstances.

As a well travelled aviation person I think that you're being far too generous and I beg to differ with you on this one ExXB. You just DON'T keep pax on board on the ground for 9 hours, and especially when they are at their destination (i.e. London), be it LGW iso LHR. I would say that it came down to some very poor organisation and decision making by the responsible Air India staff and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

[grounded27]

HMM, the AI crew was on the clock.

[oscarisapc]

The fiasco was entirely the responsibility of Air India management

My original query was about the legality of keeping people on board against their will when they had arrived at a point where the plane was declared to have landed. I still think this was false imprisonment, and the Police, instead of keeping the passengers calm, should have been helping them exercise their rights. Ironically, if anyone had been arrested and taken into custody, the Police would have been obliged to offer them food and drink at regular intervals, which is more than they were getting on the plane.

As far as Air India management is concerned, this situation has to be their responsibility and they should have plans for this. Even if they do not have a service base at Gatwick, they should have a "what if one of our planes loaded with passengers has to divert to Gatwick?" scenario in their contingency planning as part of running a responsible airline. At the very least, organising drinks and a hot meal once the delay was known to be significant, even allowing for the incremental nature of the delay, should have been a priority. If the plane was then given clearance to leave Gatwick before the passengers could have their meal, it would have been money well spent as insurance against poor PR - at what? £10 per passenger at most. If solving this problem was above the pay grade of the Air India duty manager, why wasn't someone more senior involved? I am sorry, but as a regular passenger I don't buy the "it was not their fault" argument at all.

[750XL]

It's not entirely AI's fault though, probably.

I'd imagine the Terminal Duty Manager would not allow 300+ passengers to disembark the aircraft to be kept airside like a transit lounge. At Manchester at least, if an aircraft diverts in and road transportation is required to get the passengers to their final destination, the passengers are not allowed to disembark the aircraft until the coaches are sat outside arrivals waiting for the passengers.

As bad as it sounds, it's a lot easier to keep 300 pissed off passengers onboard rather than swanning about the terminal ranting and raving

[PAXboy]

I'm sure it is easier to keep them sitting on board. But this situation crops up every year, often twice a year spring/autumn when the fog is around. There must be countless long hauls that have to make this divert and then wait. So LGW mgmt must have well polished plans to serve food and drain the lavvies AT THE LEAST.

What do other carriers do?

[750XL]

I'm sure it is easier to keep them sitting on board. But this situation crops up every year, often twice a year spring/autumn when the fog is around. There must be countless long hauls that have to make this divert and then wait. So LGW mgmt must have well polished plans to serve food and drain the lavvies AT THE LEAST.

What do other carriers do?

That's more down to AI management than the airport themselves. If AI have no service partner contracts (for waste/water, catering etc) then no one is going to bother coming out, until AI make phone calls and confirm payment for such services.

[ExXB]

OK, AI did not wine, dine and entertain them which shouldn't happen.

But behind the scenes some things that are not immediately obvious;

LHR did not close due to fog, it imposed a reduced flow control. The slots for takeoff/landing were reduced meaning fewer takeoffs/landing. AI was one of the unlucky ones, perhaps they were already late or perhaps the flip of the coin, or who knows ? They diverted to Gatwick.

Once on the ground AI would appeal for a takeoff slot out of LGW and a landing slot at LHR. Eurocontrol would coordinate these requests, but with LHR already slowed down it is unlikely that they would be given anything other than "we'll do our best" , and "let us know when you are ready to go".

It is likely they would have to take on fuel, enough for the short hop, alternatives and safety margin. Once this was done they would be put into the queue for both airports, and Eurocontrol. All this time the original crew would be watching their watches. Nothing more back from EC other than we are trying our best. They might have had an opportunity at one or the other airport but they needed both.

Once the crew timed out, that was it. Eurocontrol would have said simply, too bad, but Have your replacements let us know when they are ready to go, so back to the end of the queue for you.

The crew - and it's not that likely that AI would have more than one at an out station, would then have to get from Heathrow to Gatwick, and I'm sure they did everything in their power to do that as quickly as they could. Once they were in the cockpit they would let EC know they were ready to go and they would be put back in the queue.

AI had a valid landing slot which could not be honoured. That is why everything afterwards went tits up. Of course slots are not guaranteed and Heathrow will get paid anyway once the aircraft finally arrives.

[PAXboy]

Sure ExXB, that is an excellent listing of the problems they face and that many punters will have seen on the various Airport documentary programmes.

I go with the idea that they should have outline contracts in place ready to be activated at a moments notice. That moment would have been as the crew were approaching their time out. For then, it was inevitable that another 2/3/4 hours were in store. That is down to AI. Since they have operated at LHR for a very long time, they know how often flow control is invoked.