Air India detains passengers at Gatwick for 9 hours

[grounded27]

We have laws in the USA that regulate just how long an airline is allowed to keep pax onboard. I googled passenger rites and found this.



"As of April 2010, airlines operating flights within the U.S. may no longer keep a plane on the tarmac for more than three hours, and they will have to provide "adequate food and potable drinking water" for any delays longer than two hours. There must also be functioning lavatories onboard during the delay, as well as medical attention when necessary. (The three-hour rule is waived if safety or security is at stake, or if air traffic control reports that airport operations will be disrupted if the plane returns to the gate.) Airlines who violate this rule must pay a penalty of $27,500 per passenger.

In 2011, the DOT expanded this rule to foreign airlines operating in the U.S.; a four-hour limit on tarmac delays applies to international flights."

27k x 4-500 pax on a 747, that would be a heafty fine.

[oscarisapc]

Was it lawful to confine passengers?

I don't think anyone is complaining about the need for a diversion in the first place or that the period on the ground at Gatwick lasted for 9 hours for reasons that have been explained. What is being complained about is that during those 9 hours, it appears that nobody took into account the needs of the passengers coooped up in their seats after a long haul flight without food or drink - and probably with full and smelly lavatories as well. I agree it is easier for the staff to keep all the passengers confined on board the plane and out of sight and out of mind. Which brings me back to my original point. Was it lawful to prevent those passengers who wanted to from disembarking? Staff convenience has nothing to do with justifying actions if those actions are unlawful. I don't have an answer which is why I ask the question.

[Rwy in Sight]

I am aware thanks to PPRuNe as well that a lot of things are happening behind the scenes to make up for a delay and pax are unaware of them. Often these things don't work as much the airline (and pax) would like and the delay is well preserved.

However I have two comments here: the first relates to an editorial read on the "airline business" magazine back in 1993 - a good carrier is one that handles irregular situations effectively. How AI fared here?

Second were pax kept informed of the situation? Where the only announcements made "ladies and gentlemen we landed at LGW please wait" and 8 hours later "we are leaving for LHR"?

Finally would a provision or buses airside-airside (for emergencies) would have helped? I understand 10 buses are not productive to lay around but they could have ferried crew and pax from LHR to LGW as well?

[Hotel Tango]

I remember a flight from NAS to LUX back in the 70s when, due to fog, we diverted to FRA. At FRA pax were given the choice to either get off and make their own way by ground transportation or wait it out with the crew for a wx improvement at LUX. It was also made clear that if wx improvement didn't come about within the next x hours (can't remember the exact figures) they would be transported by coach to LUX. The point was that pax were given a choice.

[750XL]

I remember a flight from NAS to LUX back in the 70s when, due to fog, we diverted to FRA. At FRA pax were given the choice to either get off and make their own way by ground transportation or wait it out with the crew for a wx improvement at LUX. It was also made clear that if wx improvement didn't come about within the next x hours (can't remember the exact figures) they would be transported by coach to LUX. The point was that pax were given a choice.

Giving the passengers a choice is probably the worst thing you could do. If let's say 50% of the aircraft opted to offload themselves and find their own way back, you'd then have to spend forever and a day shifting through 400 bags to find the 200 who have offloaded.

[Octopussy2]

I understand the point about how giving the passengers a choice could be problematic given the need to sort out baggage; surely the only sensible decision would have been to let passengers disembark, collect their luggage and offer to lay on coaches for those who wanted to be taken to Gatwick (probably with a substantial wait for those coaches, but hey, at least pax would have been given the option to make their own alternative arrangements). IMHO, the difference between arriving at Gatwick and Heathrow is neglible and I would imagine only a very few passengers (elderly/infirm) would be reluctant to make their own onward travel arrangements.

Keeping passengers on board for this length of time in these circumstances is completely unacceptable. Also, some people will have been travelling with children; I don't think my two are particularly unruly, but the thought of trying to keep them entertained for 9 hours [I]at the end of a long flight[I] doesn't bear thinking about.

[grounded27]

Just how long would it take to unload all pax and baggage, let those who wanted claim then recheck their bags and hang out in the terminal where they had access to services not available (even to just stretch legs) aboard the aircraft. While there may not be laws in the UK governing this there is sure as hell common sence. Sounds like there are grounds for a heafty lawsuit there is probably legal PRECEDENCE to work off of.

[Hartington]

Deep breath....

This is Air India we're talking about. Red tape central. Nobody breathes without being told to do so by their superior.

Here's my take. Aircraft diverts to Gatwick - these things happen. They've got passengers at Heathrow wanting to board as well as the passengers on board wanting to get off. Crew has enough hours to go for a quick refuel and hop over to Heathrow provided everything goes to plan. So they park off terminal. Will someone authorise fuel? The crew can't authorise and the request works its' way slowly through the red tape. By the time it's authorised the crew are out of hours. Where's a replacement? Probably in London. Can we call them? More red tape. Yes we can. OK get them to Gatwick. Find the plane. File a flight plan - no slot until....

In the meantime, apart from the fact that they've asked for fuel the guys on board know nothing. No feedback. So they say nothing; they don't want to promise something they can't provide (and get into trouble for doing so). Did the crew ask for food? I doubt it because they would be seen as causing even more problems, in any case "we're getting fuel soon".

I hate to see a great airline bought down in this way. It didn't used to be like this.

I wonder what they'll do when they have a plane stuck at JFK in a snow storm given US law?!

Will it happen again? I hate to say it but probably.

[Hotel Tango]

750XL you may be right but on the day it all went smoothly. Knowing they were going nowhere fast they unloaded the bags onto the tarmac, then off loaded the pax (by row numbers) and they identified their bags. The bags were then loaded on baggage carts and the pax bussed to the terminal (we were on a remote stand). Remember, these were the days when airline staff were encouraged to use initiative and had the brains to ORGANISE. Sadly lacking these days!

[PAXboy]

Hartington

This is Air India we're talking about. Red tape central. Nobody breathes without being told to do so by their superior.

Thanks for that. If I had have known that, I would not have made any of my other comments. If that's the restrictions on the staff, then they never stood a chance.

A repeat example is certainly on the cards.

[750XL]

750XL you may be right but on the day it all went smoothly. Knowing they were going nowhere fast they unloaded the bags onto the tarmac, then off loaded the pax (by row numbers) and they identified their bags. The bags were then loaded on baggage carts and the pax bussed to the terminal (we were on a remote stand). Remember, these were the days when airline staff were encouraged to use initiative and had the brains to ORGANISE. Sadly lacking these days!

Maybe that was possible back 'in the day', but not these days.

Firstly you need the equipment and a ramp team to offload the thing, then take all the bags out of the cans and line them up in some sort of fashion on the apron. You're probably looking at a minimum of 5 guys, 1 hi-lo, various EBTs and dollies. Once that's done, you'll need a few passenger service staff to escort the passengers off the aircraft to ID their bag, get the bag put to one side then load the passengers back onto the aircraft (up rear steps presumably) or onto a coach. The airport probably won't be able to afford to have a few coaches sat at the aircraft side for an hour or more while this is done. On top of this, you're going to need someone to load plan it for the onload of ULDs, then get a loadsheet prepared (unless the captain decides to do it himself). Where I work, and I'd imagine all other airports in the UK, handling agents can barely cover their own scheduled flights never mind diverts sat on the apron having bag ID's.

[wiggy]

750XL

What you describe sounds entirely credible. Some airlines are well aware that LGW is stretched for resources on a normal day and is not the best place to divert to unless it is the only alternate you can reach (fuel).

FWIW if we are headed for LHR we will usually have LGW as our nominated Alternate on the Flight plan but if a diversion is on the cards and obviously only if our fuel state allows then Stansted or Luton are the better options, simply because they are more "friendly" from a customer service/refueling/onwards travel point of view.

[jetset lady]

I still don't understand why people put up with it. If I was on a plane, on the ground, for more than a couple of hours without being fed, watered and entertained then I would just walk off it. If I had to I would blow the slides to get off.

Yes, they'll probably arrest me but nothing will come from that in the UK. And I'm sure large numbers of people would follow so it is unlikely that they would even arrest.

Don't put it up with it and it will stop happening!

There's always one!

Ok, James 1077. Let me add a few more scenarios to those already given by ExXB. There you are. You've diverted and you're a little disgruntled but not expecting too much of a delay. As you pull onto stand, in the background, a PA is made. "Cabin Crew, doors to manual and cross check." As a regular traveller that has heard some version of the above many times, it barely even registers on your radar.

Now fast forward four hours. You are way more than disgruntled and you know your rights! No one is going to keep you on an aircraft against your will. So up you jump, declaring, "If you won't let me get off, I'm going to blow the slides and get off that way!" Other, equally disgruntled passengers, start to cheer and follow you down the aisle. You are a hero! You have taken charge of the situation. As a certain ad would say, James, you are so mo**y supermarket! So you fling open the door...and look down into a gaping great hole. Remember that PA all those hours earlier? Sadly, those behind you can't see that there is no slide. So they keep pushing and out you go.

But lets say today is your lucky day. For some reason, the doors are still in automatic and out pops the slide. Sadly, it's not such a lucky day for the poor ground staff member that happens to be standing underneath when that slide comes down. Or maybe it's her lucky day too. But not the best day for the honey wagon, which is just pulling forward. Trust me. You do not want to slide down onto the honey wagon.

However, unbelievably a small part of your mind has retained a modicum of sense and you have checked outside to see that nothing is blocking the slide. (Unlikely but possible, I suppose.) Have you ever stood at the top of one of those slides, looking down. They are high. And very steep. All of a sudden, you're not feeling like much of a hero. But no time to stop! Everyone is coming down behind you, don't forget. And best make sure you get away from the bottom of the slide quickly. But as ExXB has already said, be careful not to run in front of that taxiing aircraft....

I'm sure you get the idea by now. So please can we drop this "I'll blow the slide" attitude once and for all? Those slides are there for one scenario and one scenario only. When the situation in the cabin is so bad that your life would be in immediate danger, were you to stay. They are not playground slides and injuries will and do happen. They are certainly not there because you want to make a point!

Going back to the actual incident in question, I'd be interested to know whether the airline made any requests for the passengers to be allowed into the terminal at least. Obviously, with some passengers possibly connecting directly onto other international flights from LHR and therefore not having UK Visa's, they would probably have had to stay airside but as others have said, at least they would have had access to better facilities or even the chance to stretch their legs. For those that know about ground operations, could the airport refuse to allow the passengers into the terminal? In other words, once they accept an aircraft into their airport, do they then share some responsibility for duty of care of the passengers with the airline? And if not, why not? True, it's not their fault if an aircraft has been diverted into their airport due to bad weather, volcanic ash etc but it's not really the fault of the airline either. In no way am I trying to shift the blame from AI as undoubtedly, they got it wrong but it does always seem to be the airlines that have to pay while the airports get away with doing the bare minimum.

[radeng]

A real problem with such a delay if there's no food is that you can have a medical emergency on your hands if a diabetic goes hypoglycaemic. Then the airport have to find the steps, escort the ambulance.........more trouble than getting food out to the aircraft.

[Hotel Tango]

I can't help but notice that the airline professionals here are quick to respond with what they believe are acceptable reasons/excuses. Sorry folks, keeping passengers (i.e. customers) virtual prisoners for 9 hours when they have effectively arrived at their destination city is simply not acceptable at all, whoever or whatever may be responsible. It is perfectly valid for those involved to complain and for the entire episode to be thoroughly investigated. I also believe that all pax should be handsomely compensated!

[wiggy]

.

I can't help but notice that the airline professionals here are quick to respond with what they believe are acceptable reasons/excuses.

To be fair I think most of the professionals here have come up with explanations as to why in general you can't just arrive at an alternate airport and expect a rapid turnround or passenger disembarkation.....that doesn't mean the professionals here think what happened at Gatwick the other day was acceptable.

[jetset lady]

I can't help but notice that the airline professionals here are quick to respond with what they believe are acceptable reasons/excuses.

Hotel Tango,

Are we reading the same thread? I've not seen anyone try to offer up acceptable reasons or excuses, as you call them, be they from the industry or not. It's very easy for you to say..

Sorry folks, keeping passengers (i.e. customers) virtual prisoners for 9 hours when they have effectively arrived at their destination city is simply not acceptable at all

..but that was one of my points. Possibly, for some of those passengers, they hadn't effectively arrived in their destination city. Their destination city may not have even been in the UK, in which case they may not have had visas and therefore would not have been allowed to enter the UK to be bussed to LHR. Could they have been given emergency visas? I don't know. Hopefully, someone from the ground will be able to answer that along with my question on the airports responsibility.

Most of the airline professionals on here are the same people that are directly in the firing line in an incident like this. We don't want to be stuck in this sort of situation anymore than the passengers do. We were merely trying to explain some of the issues that may have arisen to escalate this mess into the shambles it became. That doesn't mean that we think the explanations relieve the companies involved of any responsibility or that what happened doesn't need investigating.

[grounded27]

Their destination city may not have even been in the UK, in which case they may not have had visas and therefore would not have been allowed to enter the UK to be bussed to LHR.

They certainly could have been provided with a gate at an international terminal and been provided with proper food and facilities until a resolution was provided. I am sure there are several solutions but deboarding is not that complicated of one.

[PAXboy]

grounded27

I am sure there are several solutions but deboarding is not that complicated of one.

Uummmm, all the professionals have listed the reasons why it IS a complicated solution!!!

• Air India staff not present on site
• AI staff need permission to spend money - possibly from HQ
• Airport facilities already fully assigned.
• Airport space to be made available that would be safe and isolated from ALL other pax and the staff to monitor pax - for as many hours or days that it took. That space to have refreshements and toilet facilties for 250+ people
• Then to sort those people into disenbarking and waiting to go on to LHR.
• Then to sort their luggage / get fuelled / get crew / etc.
• All the while - they might get the 'go' instruction from ATC at any time.

You cannot STRAT to disembark the pax until ALL of the other points are lined up. In the modern phrase, "It's complicated ..."

[grounded27]

PAXboy

Uummmm, all the professionals have listed the reasons why it IS a complicated solution!!!

• Air India staff not present on site
• AI staff need permission to spend money - possibly from HQ
• Airport facilities already fully assigned.
• Airport space to be made available that would be safe and isolated from ALL other pax and the staff to monitor pax - for as many hours or days that it took. That space to have refreshements and toilet facilties for 250+ people
• Then to sort those people into disenbarking and waiting to go on to LHR.
• Then to sort their luggage / get fuelled / get crew / etc.
• All the while - they might get the 'go' instruction from ATC at any time.

You cannot STRAT to disembark the pax until ALL of the other points are lined up. In the modern phrase, "It's complicated

Wish this happened In the USA, all of those logistal issues should be balanced with the cost of a fine. A simple answer to streamline a better situation would be an interairline agreement to handle all the above common issues. Your last item, after 3 hours they should have been thinking about calling the "hold" off. Airports/Nations should mandate and be prepared for these circumstances. No excuse here.

I am SURE if they were subject to the fines imposed in the USA they would have found a way to do the right thing. Majic ain't it!