New security area 1st Floor Gatwick south
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New security area 1st Floor Gatwick south
I see the new security area upstairs is open (2nd June), the thing that worries me is that they now do a scan of my retina before I am allowed through to the baggage Xray/pat down area.
No signs saying they are going to, so no explicit consent requested they just do it. How long is is kept, what for? At no place prior to getting on the plane is there another scanner so it can't be to ensure the right person gets on the right plane.
Very sinister.
Same old way on the ground floor !
No signs saying they are going to, so no explicit consent requested they just do it. How long is is kept, what for? At no place prior to getting on the plane is there another scanner so it can't be to ensure the right person gets on the right plane.
Very sinister.
Same old way on the ground floor !
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David Hill a manager at Gatwick South has just explicitly denied to me that such a scanner is even in place! Interesting, are you sure it's not just having your photo taken as per all domestic travel at Gatwick?
Either you're mistaken in what happened or Gatwick's left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.
Either you're mistaken in what happened or Gatwick's left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.
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The machine asked me to open my eyes wider? If that's not a retinal scan I don't know what is.
The gate is a bit like a ticket gate on the Tube, but has a place to put the boarding pass bar code. Further away, beyond the barrier is vertical piece 6/7 feet high. There is an array of red LEDs that glow but in no way bright enough to be a flash, they stay on rather than flash. Below this there appears to be a lens/camera and below that a video display that told me to open my eyes. The attendant told me to remove my spectacles and move a bit further forward, why if it was a simple photograph.
Nearly at the gate, going through the checkpoint where it used to bring up your photograph on the display when they scanned the bar code put on the board pass (the old existing system) I looked back and it said something like "retinal scan failed". I guess therefore the system was not in full operation as yet.
I wish I'd had the forsight to take a sly photo of the machine.
Half the new security section still had workmen in it but there must have been 30 or so of these machines in place.
I have asked Gatwick and our Data Protection Commissioner to advise me.
Big Brother is watching.
If I were a gambling man, I would say the machines are from ;
MFlow Track
And concidentally they list Gatwick as a client.
The gate is a bit like a ticket gate on the Tube, but has a place to put the boarding pass bar code. Further away, beyond the barrier is vertical piece 6/7 feet high. There is an array of red LEDs that glow but in no way bright enough to be a flash, they stay on rather than flash. Below this there appears to be a lens/camera and below that a video display that told me to open my eyes. The attendant told me to remove my spectacles and move a bit further forward, why if it was a simple photograph.
Nearly at the gate, going through the checkpoint where it used to bring up your photograph on the display when they scanned the bar code put on the board pass (the old existing system) I looked back and it said something like "retinal scan failed". I guess therefore the system was not in full operation as yet.
I wish I'd had the forsight to take a sly photo of the machine.
Half the new security section still had workmen in it but there must have been 30 or so of these machines in place.
I have asked Gatwick and our Data Protection Commissioner to advise me.
Big Brother is watching.
If I were a gambling man, I would say the machines are from ;
MFlow Track
And concidentally they list Gatwick as a client.
Last edited by radiosutch; 3rd Jun 2011 at 22:48.
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Went through this process last night for the first time. Machine kept on asking me to look at the display, and open my eyes, which I did so. Eventually it told me to seek assistance. That meant going to a second, manned gate where I think they took my photograph. I say that because down in the depths of gates 1-9 there's another machine you have to stand and look at. I expected to fail that test too, but surprisingly it seems I passed. Rather too quickly I thought so I suspect the monitor simply displayed my photo as before. There was a message on the screen saying "Biometric reconciliation complete" which I suspect is management speak for "this is the chap we saw earlier".
Now I am concerned, because I pass through Gatwick almost every week, and, given my total failure to get IRIS to recognise me, it would seem that I will have to try, try, try again until the system asks me to seek assistance. What a total pain.
Why not just an automated photo taker? Well I guess that's not as sexy and simply too cheap to be an acceptable solution.
Now I am concerned, because I pass through Gatwick almost every week, and, given my total failure to get IRIS to recognise me, it would seem that I will have to try, try, try again until the system asks me to seek assistance. What a total pain.
Why not just an automated photo taker? Well I guess that's not as sexy and simply too cheap to be an acceptable solution.
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I have asked Gatwick and our Data Protection Commissioner to advise me.
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Of course, I'll post any replies. I expect one from the DPC, not confident about Gatwick though. Time will tell.
The manager you spoke to is simply wrong. My guess on the supplier was right as this has been reported in;
http://www.hrsid.com/images/mediafil...k%20032011.pdf
Iris Recognition
I rest my case !
The manager you spoke to is simply wrong. My guess on the supplier was right as this has been reported in;
http://www.hrsid.com/images/mediafil...k%20032011.pdf
Iris Recognition
I rest my case !
Last edited by radiosutch; 4th Jun 2011 at 11:53.
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Update
No reply from Gatwick, no surprise there !
No further response from the DPC but I am absolutely confident I will get a reply when their investigations are complete even if they take weeks. Dealt with them before in a professional capacity and they are reliable.
No further response from the DPC but I am absolutely confident I will get a reply when their investigations are complete even if they take weeks. Dealt with them before in a professional capacity and they are reliable.
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A reply !
Not that helpful, as I already guessed it wasn't the UKBA doing it.
The DPC via the UK IC is now going to take this up with 'BAA', however I have pointed out BAA don't own Gatwick now.
Not that helpful, as I already guessed it wasn't the UKBA doing it.
The DPC via the UK IC is now going to take this up with 'BAA', however I have pointed out BAA don't own Gatwick now.
RESPONSE BY UKBA
I have tried to provide as much information below. I think the individual is assuming that UKBA check his photo with the one taken by an airport operator when passing through the security check point. This is not the case, below explains the different types of gates that is used at immigration controls across the UK.
Leaving the UK:
When an individual has checked in, they must proceed through the security check point. This process is handled by the airports operator, in this case BAA. I am assuming this would be for security reasons as anyone would expect at an airport. Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm their use, retention and destruction policy for information gathered at this security point. No information regarding this check point is passed to UKBA for our immigration function.
Entering the UK.
Our officers scan passports and cross-check passenger details to make sure only those people who have the right to enter the UK are allowed to do so. The Agency is always seeking new and quicker ways of allowing those with the right to enter the United Kingdom to pass through immigration control quicker and easier. Two of these initiatives are the IRIS and e-passport gates.
IRIS is a voluntary scheme where UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can register. IRIS makes use of the fact that the pattern of the iris in each person's eye (the coloured part of the eye) is unique. This enables a person to be identified simply by looking into a special camera at the IRIS barrier located in the immigration arrival hall. More details regarding the IRIS scheme can be found on UKBA's website. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/usingiris/
e-passport gates uses facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the 'chip' in your passport. Again, UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can use the gates provided their passport has a 'chip' logo on the front of their passport. You must also be aged 18 or over, unless otherwise stated on airport signs. Once the checks are made, the gates will open automatically for you to go through. More information regarding e-passport gates can be found on UKBA's website http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/e-passport-gates/
Both of these schemes are ways to speed up the passengers experience when travelling through immigration control. The same checks will be completed at the gates as would be should the individual present themselves to an Immigration Officer at the desk. No additional checks are competed at the gates.
I hope that this is helpful
I have tried to provide as much information below. I think the individual is assuming that UKBA check his photo with the one taken by an airport operator when passing through the security check point. This is not the case, below explains the different types of gates that is used at immigration controls across the UK.
Leaving the UK:
When an individual has checked in, they must proceed through the security check point. This process is handled by the airports operator, in this case BAA. I am assuming this would be for security reasons as anyone would expect at an airport. Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm their use, retention and destruction policy for information gathered at this security point. No information regarding this check point is passed to UKBA for our immigration function.
Entering the UK.
Our officers scan passports and cross-check passenger details to make sure only those people who have the right to enter the UK are allowed to do so. The Agency is always seeking new and quicker ways of allowing those with the right to enter the United Kingdom to pass through immigration control quicker and easier. Two of these initiatives are the IRIS and e-passport gates.
IRIS is a voluntary scheme where UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can register. IRIS makes use of the fact that the pattern of the iris in each person's eye (the coloured part of the eye) is unique. This enables a person to be identified simply by looking into a special camera at the IRIS barrier located in the immigration arrival hall. More details regarding the IRIS scheme can be found on UKBA's website. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/usingiris/
e-passport gates uses facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the 'chip' in your passport. Again, UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can use the gates provided their passport has a 'chip' logo on the front of their passport. You must also be aged 18 or over, unless otherwise stated on airport signs. Once the checks are made, the gates will open automatically for you to go through. More information regarding e-passport gates can be found on UKBA's website http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/e-passport-gates/
Both of these schemes are ways to speed up the passengers experience when travelling through immigration control. The same checks will be completed at the gates as would be should the individual present themselves to an Immigration Officer at the desk. No additional checks are competed at the gates.
I hope that this is helpful
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Hmm Interesting this....
When I renewed my passport, I had several photographs rejected "as the computer could not recognise your eyes" Eventually I had to have a photograph taken without my spectacles (which I wear all the time), before the passport office announced themselves satisfied. Interestingly my photo on my driving licence (I thought they shared information with the passport office) has me with my glasses in place.
With regard to airports photographing travellers, I thought they did this all the time! I first became aware of it some years ago at Bristol, when at the gate I saw a photograph of me that clearly had been taken without my knowledge at check in. My assumption has been since, that every time I have travelled by air I have passed through a similiar procedure. BTW I have yet to see the automatic passport readers at Birmingham actually in operation. Such expense not being used and not enough desks being manned seem now to be the norm at Birmingham.
When I renewed my passport, I had several photographs rejected "as the computer could not recognise your eyes" Eventually I had to have a photograph taken without my spectacles (which I wear all the time), before the passport office announced themselves satisfied. Interestingly my photo on my driving licence (I thought they shared information with the passport office) has me with my glasses in place.
With regard to airports photographing travellers, I thought they did this all the time! I first became aware of it some years ago at Bristol, when at the gate I saw a photograph of me that clearly had been taken without my knowledge at check in. My assumption has been since, that every time I have travelled by air I have passed through a similiar procedure. BTW I have yet to see the automatic passport readers at Birmingham actually in operation. Such expense not being used and not enough desks being manned seem now to be the norm at Birmingham.
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The machine asked me to open my eyes wider? If that's not a retinal scan I don't know what is.
What you are experiencing is more likely to be an Iris Scan, not a Retina Scan, as stated in the "unhelpful" reply you got.
Dawdler.
Your passport will be a "biometric" one. One "biometric" used is the size of your eyes and the distance apart they are (again, unique to the person). Glasses distort that, so that is why the instructions that come with the passport form state that glasses are NOT to be worn in the picture you use for your passport.
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update
An update from Gatwick !
I may have been rather loose in my use of technical terms for which I apologise. I don't know if it is iris or retinal scanning but either way it's biometric data that can be stored for any (nefarious?) purposes.
"
Thank you for your recent email.
Firstly may I apologise for the delay in responding to you. This was due to some recent changes in the structure of our customers services team.
Gatwick operates a common user travel area where both domestic and international departing passengers are able to mix. To meet with UKBA regulations and the reconciliation of domestic passengers arriving at the departure gate a simple biometric system is in place that captures domestic passengers iris details.
Previously we operated a photographic system that enabled a similar facial reconciliation process. Both the systems are programmed, such that no data is retained after the flights arrival.
Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further concerns.
Yours sincerely,
Andrew Murray
Security Regulation Manager
www.gatwickairport.com
I may have been rather loose in my use of technical terms for which I apologise. I don't know if it is iris or retinal scanning but either way it's biometric data that can be stored for any (nefarious?) purposes.
"
Thank you for your recent email.
Firstly may I apologise for the delay in responding to you. This was due to some recent changes in the structure of our customers services team.
Gatwick operates a common user travel area where both domestic and international departing passengers are able to mix. To meet with UKBA regulations and the reconciliation of domestic passengers arriving at the departure gate a simple biometric system is in place that captures domestic passengers iris details.
Previously we operated a photographic system that enabled a similar facial reconciliation process. Both the systems are programmed, such that no data is retained after the flights arrival.
Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further concerns.
Yours sincerely,
Andrew Murray
Security Regulation Manager
www.gatwickairport.com
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So the commercial company that owns LGW now has our Iris scans and promises not to lose them? Hmmm not happy about this, BAA got stung with fingerprints at T5.
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For recent trips through LGW South I still have to be patient until the boarding pass scanner decides it has captured what it wants and lets me through to the security scanning area. However I have had no problems getting through the secondary check down in the pier by gate 4 (other than the huge queues the new machine seems to have created). In fact it doesn't even ask me to "Look Here" any more. So I snuck a quick peek at the operator's screen last time and saw a huge banner "Biometric Reconciliation Complete" message with a photograph of me on the right hand side.
I am thus wondering whether they have furtively gone back to using photographs having fallen foul of some Data Protection rule; something that other posters have suggested may well be possible?
I am thus wondering whether they have furtively gone back to using photographs having fallen foul of some Data Protection rule; something that other posters have suggested may well be possible?
Paxing All Over The World
Skipness One Echo
Technically - they ARE promising to lose them!!
They say that, when the flight arrives at destination - they will delete the data. Probably, they should say "n hours after arrival and we know that there are no problems with pax on that flight"
The questions is, WHEN do they delete and DO they delete? To save them the trouble of replying, the answers are:
1) Immediately
2) Always.
!
So the commercial company that owns LGW now has our Iris scans and promises not to lose them?
They say that, when the flight arrives at destination - they will delete the data. Probably, they should say "n hours after arrival and we know that there are no problems with pax on that flight"
The questions is, WHEN do they delete and DO they delete? To save them the trouble of replying, the answers are:
1) Immediately
2) Always.
!
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I don't understand the big fuss about all of this, at the end of the day if it enables airport security to be improved in any manner then this should be embraced with open arms. Even if Gatwick did keep your information for a prolonged period of time, what do you think they are going to do with it? And even in the worst case scenario! Some 'group' gets hold of a picture of your face, what are they seriously going to do with it. If they were able to clone your passport (impossible without accompanying APIS data anyway...), you are the innocent party and you have nothing to worry about.
You'll notice that security at the departure gates use this image to ensure that the same pax that had the photo taken is the same one that is at the gate.
Just relax, if you live your life that security conscious then I'm sure you live a very restrictive lifestyle.
You'll notice that security at the departure gates use this image to ensure that the same pax that had the photo taken is the same one that is at the gate.
Just relax, if you live your life that security conscious then I'm sure you live a very restrictive lifestyle.
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ImPlaneCrazy - we all understand the photograph process; it's been used for several years. The photograph system started before barcoded boarding passes appeared, and involved generating a barcode digitally attached to a stored image and physically attached to your boarding card. Assurances were given that the images would be deleted within 24 hours. That process is still in use for domestic arrivals at Gatwick South, and the barcode is stuck to a piece of paper with this assurance printed on the reverse.
I have yet to see any notice to the travelling public spelling out what Gatwick are doing with these new scanners.
It's the capture of a unique biometric identifier by a private company which concerns me. There is the possibility (indeed the probability) that other personal information is captured from the 2D barcode on the boarding pass which contains the passenger name, flight number etc and that might make the identifier data into a valuable commodity. I would hope that our data protection laws are strong enough to prevent misuse, but my experience with other organisations who quietly accumulate data on their customers suggests otherwise.
Do you really want to find you are offered say personalised advertising or worse based on your travel activity? Look at the tracking organisations already do based on your computer browsing, and often without your knowledge (it's on page 72 of our terms and conditions, sir)? It will happen.
The reason though we have this dreadful process is because the airports want to corral us into one great shopping mall for their own convenience, and understandably the UKBA want to ensure that no one uses that as an opportunity to gain entry into the UK without having a little chat with them first. Perhaps the UKBA should put their foot down and refuse to accept this mixing of domestic and international pax. That was how T1 worked at LHR. Frankly as a frequent traveller I would be happy to spend my waiting time in a separate domestic lounge and avoid the chaos that is international departures. But I'd like to have a Starbucks or Pret in that lounge too....
I have yet to see any notice to the travelling public spelling out what Gatwick are doing with these new scanners.
It's the capture of a unique biometric identifier by a private company which concerns me. There is the possibility (indeed the probability) that other personal information is captured from the 2D barcode on the boarding pass which contains the passenger name, flight number etc and that might make the identifier data into a valuable commodity. I would hope that our data protection laws are strong enough to prevent misuse, but my experience with other organisations who quietly accumulate data on their customers suggests otherwise.
Do you really want to find you are offered say personalised advertising or worse based on your travel activity? Look at the tracking organisations already do based on your computer browsing, and often without your knowledge (it's on page 72 of our terms and conditions, sir)? It will happen.
The reason though we have this dreadful process is because the airports want to corral us into one great shopping mall for their own convenience, and understandably the UKBA want to ensure that no one uses that as an opportunity to gain entry into the UK without having a little chat with them first. Perhaps the UKBA should put their foot down and refuse to accept this mixing of domestic and international pax. That was how T1 worked at LHR. Frankly as a frequent traveller I would be happy to spend my waiting time in a separate domestic lounge and avoid the chaos that is international departures. But I'd like to have a Starbucks or Pret in that lounge too....
