A Hygiene Issue
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Belfast
A Hygiene Issue
Is it legal for a passenger aircraft to operate for a prolonged period of time without running water in the toilet?
I travelled on a Flybe Dash 8 400 earlier this month. During the flight I visited the WC but could not wash my hands because no water was forthcoming when I pressed the tap on the washbasin. I told the cabin crew the water system was not functioning. They told me pipes had burst during the first of December's 'cold snaps'. They also said it would be about two weeks until the repairs were carried out and offered me one of their own bottles of hand sanitiser for which I was very grateful.
The cabin crew were genuinely distressed about the situation and hated working on the aircraft in question as they could not wash their hands. They didn't have to point out to me that in the course of a shift they must have had to visit the WC between sectors and then serve tea, coffee, drinks and snacks to their next batch of passengers.
I have no doubt the cabin crew in question did their utmost to maintain hygiene standards but the situation was obviously far from ideal.
I travelled on a Flybe Dash 8 400 earlier this month. During the flight I visited the WC but could not wash my hands because no water was forthcoming when I pressed the tap on the washbasin. I told the cabin crew the water system was not functioning. They told me pipes had burst during the first of December's 'cold snaps'. They also said it would be about two weeks until the repairs were carried out and offered me one of their own bottles of hand sanitiser for which I was very grateful.
The cabin crew were genuinely distressed about the situation and hated working on the aircraft in question as they could not wash their hands. They didn't have to point out to me that in the course of a shift they must have had to visit the WC between sectors and then serve tea, coffee, drinks and snacks to their next batch of passengers.
I have no doubt the cabin crew in question did their utmost to maintain hygiene standards but the situation was obviously far from ideal.
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From: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
That plane should be reported to the CAA who are responsible in the UK for Health and Safety in the cabin.
Whilst I'm not sure whether or not it is written that there must be running water, it is written that proper standards have to be maintained. Have a look at cap 757 and talk to the person referred to in that doc.
Whilst I'm not sure whether or not it is written that there must be running water, it is written that proper standards have to be maintained. Have a look at cap 757 and talk to the person referred to in that doc.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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From: On the western edge of The Moor
That plane should be reported to the CAA who are responsible in the UK for Health and Safety in the cabin.
Contact the Port Health authority at the airline's HQ. They have more power to deal with such issues!!
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From: Wor Yerm
Is it legal for a passenger aircraft to operate for a prolonged period of time without running water in the toilet?
Contact the Port Health authority at the airline's HQ. They have more power to deal with such issues!!
PM
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Over Mache Grande?
Calm down B & T...
I see where you are coming from, but perhaps a little extreme?
FF2: It's been difficult in recent circumstances to keep everything on the aircraft working perfectly. For example, each night we got back to base recently the toilets had to be dropped and the water tanks emptied, along with all relevant CB's pulled. Even then, there is residual water in the systems which freezes and causes problems.
First flight of the day, if the water bowsers haven't frozen then we refill the tanks and turn all the heaters on. Even then, I have had to take off with a still frozen system, knowing it should defrost shortly.
I don't know the Dash or your sector, but perhaps it could have been a first flight of the day? Also, without checking the MEL, it may be possible to despatch without water. As B & T was alluding to, we often spend longer in areas without access to water than maybe a short sector on a Dash?
We also carry hand sanitisers, so we would provide that plus bottled water if we have a potable water problem.
DW.
FF2: It's been difficult in recent circumstances to keep everything on the aircraft working perfectly. For example, each night we got back to base recently the toilets had to be dropped and the water tanks emptied, along with all relevant CB's pulled. Even then, there is residual water in the systems which freezes and causes problems.
First flight of the day, if the water bowsers haven't frozen then we refill the tanks and turn all the heaters on. Even then, I have had to take off with a still frozen system, knowing it should defrost shortly.
I don't know the Dash or your sector, but perhaps it could have been a first flight of the day? Also, without checking the MEL, it may be possible to despatch without water. As B & T was alluding to, we often spend longer in areas without access to water than maybe a short sector on a Dash?
We also carry hand sanitisers, so we would provide that plus bottled water if we have a potable water problem.
DW.
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From: In transit
More worrying than this is the state of the toilets on some longhaul flights after a few hours. Anyone who's flown to/from Central Asia, Indo/Pak region, Africa on the national carriers particularly will know exactly what this is like. As we say in SA ... "sies"
Thread Starter
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From: Belfast
Are you taking the P1SS?
Were you doing BFS-SYD on this Dash 8-400 flight and you figured you may die from the germs for the 5 day flight?
Have you ever asked the bloke at Burger King if he washed his hands before he went for a slash?
Perhaps the poor girl in Costa Cofee in the terminal had taken a massive dump just prior to serving your latte and failed to go through decomtamination prior to you getting to the gate?
Ever sat on a bus for an hour without running water?
Remember those pics of Michael Jackson in an air tent years ago? Sh1t...thats not you is it Mike?
Were you doing BFS-SYD on this Dash 8-400 flight and you figured you may die from the germs for the 5 day flight?
Have you ever asked the bloke at Burger King if he washed his hands before he went for a slash?
Perhaps the poor girl in Costa Cofee in the terminal had taken a massive dump just prior to serving your latte and failed to go through decomtamination prior to you getting to the gate?
Ever sat on a bus for an hour without running water?
Remember those pics of Michael Jackson in an air tent years ago? Sh1t...thats not you is it Mike?
The hygiene concerns I mentioned were outlined to me by the cabin crew who made it plain they did not like working on a plane where they could not wash their hands.
They were very aware they were serving drinks and snacks to passengers and also handling money which many people had handled before them.
I do understand the problems the cold snap posed in terms of freezing pipes and to be honest I don't go to Burger King.
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From: UK
They do have a procedure in Flybe that when the tap in the WC is US, the normal soap dispenser is replaced with a gel hand sanitiser. If the tap in question had been US then i would think that there would have been some hand sanitising gel available in the WC.
If on the other hand it was the airport that couldn't service the aircraft due to pipes on the ground freezing and bursting, then what do you expect Flybe to do? Cancel the flight while they position it to another base to get the toilet serviced perhaps? Who wins then?
If on the other hand it was the airport that couldn't service the aircraft due to pipes on the ground freezing and bursting, then what do you expect Flybe to do? Cancel the flight while they position it to another base to get the toilet serviced perhaps? Who wins then?
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
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From: Hertfordshire, UK.
DERG is correct. My standard kit - even for a day trip on the train to London is:
- Bottle of water
- Hand/baby wipes
- Small bottle of sanitising lotion
- Muesli or oat/fruit bar in case of delays
- Fully charged mobile phone
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Europe
Is it legal for a passenger aircraft to operate without running water in the lavs?
frequentflyer2, I´ll attempt an additional answer to your question, with the caveat that I am cabin- not cockpit crew, and thus not formally trained in use of the MEL.
So I hope that any pilots here will be kind enough to correct any and all mistakes in the following.
To determine what can legally be broken on an aircraft and for how long, every commercial aircraft carries, either in printed or digital form, a Minimum Equipment List or MEL.
The pilots use it to look up what is legal and what is not when it comes to things that are "broken", unserviceable, out of order etc etc.
The operator's MEL is based on a Master Minimum Equipment List or MMEL, held by the regulatory authority, which in your example I think would be the European Aviation Safety Agency or EASA. MMELs
Scrolling down that page, you find the Bombardier Dash 8-400 with clickable PDF files. If you click on them, they turn out to be revisions that have to be read as being in addition to the original MMEL held by the country where the Bombardier is made. In this case Canada.
Going to the Transport Canada website you can unearth their MMEL for the Dash 8-400.
Looking through that for something applicable, I found this:
The words Any portion of system which operates normally may be used coincide precisely with my experience on other aircraft.
If the lav can be used, use common sense as well and let the passengers use it.
Again, the above description of MELs and their use is what I have gleaned from 25+ years of operating as cabin crew. A passing pilot will hopefully have a look and add the definitive word here.
As for the hygienic aspects; they have been admirably addressed by others above.
So I hope that any pilots here will be kind enough to correct any and all mistakes in the following.
To determine what can legally be broken on an aircraft and for how long, every commercial aircraft carries, either in printed or digital form, a Minimum Equipment List or MEL.
The pilots use it to look up what is legal and what is not when it comes to things that are "broken", unserviceable, out of order etc etc.
The operator's MEL is based on a Master Minimum Equipment List or MMEL, held by the regulatory authority, which in your example I think would be the European Aviation Safety Agency or EASA. MMELs
Scrolling down that page, you find the Bombardier Dash 8-400 with clickable PDF files. If you click on them, they turn out to be revisions that have to be read as being in addition to the original MMEL held by the country where the Bombardier is made. In this case Canada.
Going to the Transport Canada website you can unearth their MMEL for the Dash 8-400.
Looking through that for something applicable, I found this:
The words Any portion of system which operates normally may be used coincide precisely with my experience on other aircraft.
If the lav can be used, use common sense as well and let the passengers use it.
Again, the above description of MELs and their use is what I have gleaned from 25+ years of operating as cabin crew. A passing pilot will hopefully have a look and add the definitive word here.
As for the hygienic aspects; they have been admirably addressed by others above.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Belfast
As I explained earlier in this thread the hygiene concerns I outlined were those expressed to me by the cabin crew. I know they were taking every step possible to ensure their hands were clean and I had no worries on that front.
I accept that Flybe were legally entitled to use the aircraft without running water in the toilet but that doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the cabin and flight crew. The aircraft is their place of work. I wouldn't like to be employed somewhere I could not wash my hands with soap and water after a "massive dump" as Beer and Tabs put it in an earlier post. Remember too this lack of water was going to continue for at least two weeks.
I don't know what the situation is at every airport but it was obvious at the destination of my flight there was no hope of the crew entering the terminal to use the facilities there. It's far from ideal.
I accept that Flybe were legally entitled to use the aircraft without running water in the toilet but that doesn't stop me feeling sorry for the cabin and flight crew. The aircraft is their place of work. I wouldn't like to be employed somewhere I could not wash my hands with soap and water after a "massive dump" as Beer and Tabs put it in an earlier post. Remember too this lack of water was going to continue for at least two weeks.
I don't know what the situation is at every airport but it was obvious at the destination of my flight there was no hope of the crew entering the terminal to use the facilities there. It's far from ideal.
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From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Juud
Two comments:
1. In the first column in the MEL extract it says:
I interpret the C as the repair interval, and normally C would be 10 days
2. From the BA B747-400 MEL for Waste Systems
Hope that helps
Two comments:
1. In the first column in the MEL extract it says:
30-1 Lavatory Toilet C
2. From the BA B747-400 MEL for Waste Systems
OPERATIONS (O)
Under EU regulations, British Airways aircraft are considered to be food premises and therefore have to have an adequate supply of hot and/or cold water available on-board whenever the aircraft is operating. This can be achieved by the provision of bottled water.
Under EU regulations, British Airways aircraft are considered to be food premises and therefore have to have an adequate supply of hot and/or cold water available on-board whenever the aircraft is operating. This can be achieved by the provision of bottled water.
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From: UK
Unfortunately, neither the CAA, Port Authority nor even the local council Environmental Helath Dept would have any interest in the original query.
As other posters have already detailed, it is perfectly legal to operate the aircraft in question with an inoperative WC sink. Indeed it is the CAA who approve this particular operation. Provided the waterless hand gel was installed on the toilet sink (it looks identical to the standard soap dispenser), then there is also no hygiene issue that any of the other authorities would consider serious enough to intervene.
You may be inclined to disagree, but let me tell you this. Even when you have a perfectly serviceable and apparently clean WC and sink, remember the cleaners wipe down your tray table and all other surfaces with the very same cloths they use to wipe down the WC on this and all other aircraft they service.
Enjoy your next in flight sandwich.
As other posters have already detailed, it is perfectly legal to operate the aircraft in question with an inoperative WC sink. Indeed it is the CAA who approve this particular operation. Provided the waterless hand gel was installed on the toilet sink (it looks identical to the standard soap dispenser), then there is also no hygiene issue that any of the other authorities would consider serious enough to intervene.
You may be inclined to disagree, but let me tell you this. Even when you have a perfectly serviceable and apparently clean WC and sink, remember the cleaners wipe down your tray table and all other surfaces with the very same cloths they use to wipe down the WC on this and all other aircraft they service.
Enjoy your next in flight sandwich.
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: UK
I'd add to Otto's remarks that no one is the least bit interested in hygiene on board except the crew and pax. Enforcement is impossible, the CAA say they're an aviation authority not a public health body, the council say talk to the CAA. Even if the council was interested (they do not consider aircraft to be part of their remit) how do you suppose they'd get airside without IDs? No way! I have been involved in efforts to get squalid flight-decks cleaned up and no-one, but no-one is able to do a thing. The only help you'll get is from the crew on the day. Or the media.
And remember - some filthy bastards even change their filthy babies on the tray tables...perhaps Howard Hughes was onto something after all!
And remember - some filthy bastards even change their filthy babies on the tray tables...perhaps Howard Hughes was onto something after all!
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From: Singapore
On topic, I do see the OP's point, up to a point - but how long a flight would be operated by such a plane? Surely just wipe your hands with the sanitiser kindly offered by the CC and get over it?
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From: in the toilet
Ha Ha, I also witnessed a similar thing, a woman changing her baby's filthy nappy on the tray table on a full Kulula.com 737...AND SHE WAS SITTING IN THE MIDDLE SEAT! Poor buggers who were sitting either side of her...I really really felt for them!