A pilot's perception of delays...
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A pilot's perception of delays...
Here at Glasgow we have suffered weather that has not been seen for about ten years. Six to eight inches of snow, freezing fog, ice, blizzards... you name it, we've had it.
For the last three days not a single one of our aircraft has moved off the stand, resulting in some poor people being stranded in the airport with screaming children, the old and infirm left to fend for themselves and a terminal that looked like a pub on New Year's Eve. All very unpleasant for those trying to get Belfast etc.
What I fail to understand is why passengers feel the need to form small militant groups, shout, scream, abuse and harangue as many airport and airline staff as they can find ? Why do some passengers feel that they know more about flying and meteorology than the crews themselves ?
An example... yesterday, a flight was cancelled to a Scottish island because there was no alternate airport available for diversion. Every other airfield within flying distance was closed or out of limits. Some people had been waiting three days to get home, and I understand their frustration, especially as upon phoning the island, they discovered that the weather was almost perfect.
When an attempt was made to explain the lack of diversion airfield to the mob, someone actually shouted 'You're all cowards'.
Well, yes, we are. Why why why are people seemingly willing to risk an icy plunge off the end of a runway into the North Sea in order to get to a meeting or to get home ? Words fail me. If I don't want to fly, you certainly don't either.
Are our explanations inadequate ? Do pax really feel that we like cancelling flights because we can't be bothered to fly ?! What more is there that we can do to make your lives easier and less frustrating at a difficult time for everyone ?
From a pilot's perspective, some of these delays are extremely frustrating. The airport authority failing to clear the snow from around aircraft, baggage handlers refusing to load aircraft because there is snow near the cargo door, snow being cleared and piled in front of the aircraft preventing a pushback tug being attached, the steps for passengers icy enough for a Torville & Dean performance, airports running out of de-icing fluid... all things outside our control, yet it is us that has to explain it.
And if we're not flying, believe me, we are sitting around exactly the same as the passengers, bored and restless, although we do have the benefit of being able to mush our way home in the evening.
I suspect that most of you who read this are the sane, rational types who understand that when a flight is cancelled, its cancelled for a damn good reason. Aircraft sitting on the ground, and crew in the crewroom cost a lot of money and generate none.
Please bear with us during this unpleasant weather - we hate it as much as you do, and remember that the member of cabin crew or ground staff you take your frustration out on, has probably been on duty for ten hours as well.
All suggestions welcome !
Regards
For the last three days not a single one of our aircraft has moved off the stand, resulting in some poor people being stranded in the airport with screaming children, the old and infirm left to fend for themselves and a terminal that looked like a pub on New Year's Eve. All very unpleasant for those trying to get Belfast etc.
What I fail to understand is why passengers feel the need to form small militant groups, shout, scream, abuse and harangue as many airport and airline staff as they can find ? Why do some passengers feel that they know more about flying and meteorology than the crews themselves ?
An example... yesterday, a flight was cancelled to a Scottish island because there was no alternate airport available for diversion. Every other airfield within flying distance was closed or out of limits. Some people had been waiting three days to get home, and I understand their frustration, especially as upon phoning the island, they discovered that the weather was almost perfect.
When an attempt was made to explain the lack of diversion airfield to the mob, someone actually shouted 'You're all cowards'.
Well, yes, we are. Why why why are people seemingly willing to risk an icy plunge off the end of a runway into the North Sea in order to get to a meeting or to get home ? Words fail me. If I don't want to fly, you certainly don't either.
Are our explanations inadequate ? Do pax really feel that we like cancelling flights because we can't be bothered to fly ?! What more is there that we can do to make your lives easier and less frustrating at a difficult time for everyone ?
From a pilot's perspective, some of these delays are extremely frustrating. The airport authority failing to clear the snow from around aircraft, baggage handlers refusing to load aircraft because there is snow near the cargo door, snow being cleared and piled in front of the aircraft preventing a pushback tug being attached, the steps for passengers icy enough for a Torville & Dean performance, airports running out of de-icing fluid... all things outside our control, yet it is us that has to explain it.
And if we're not flying, believe me, we are sitting around exactly the same as the passengers, bored and restless, although we do have the benefit of being able to mush our way home in the evening.
I suspect that most of you who read this are the sane, rational types who understand that when a flight is cancelled, its cancelled for a damn good reason. Aircraft sitting on the ground, and crew in the crewroom cost a lot of money and generate none.
Please bear with us during this unpleasant weather - we hate it as much as you do, and remember that the member of cabin crew or ground staff you take your frustration out on, has probably been on duty for ten hours as well.
All suggestions welcome !
Regards
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Would agree with you totally TBone.
I was delayed last year on a flight from LHR to Toronto. The flight got delayed twice, then cancelled, only to be reinstated a few hours later.
Most Pax did exactly as you said - formed militant groups and severely harrassed the poor airline employees, threatening to hang them etc.
Personally, I went to a bar, pulled out my book and had a couple of pints whilst reading! I didn't shout at anybody, but just let the others get on with it.
Guess who got the upgrade to first class?
One thing I have learned by all the flying that I do is that if you are calm and understanding in a situation like this, then you will probably get treated better yourself.
On the subject of the flight that was cancelled due to no alternate - I'm not sure your average pax would understand the concept of alternates - they probably don't realise what's involved with planning a flight and probably think you just get in the cockpit 5 minutes before a flight, take off and point the aircraft in the correct direction.
Was the reason for the cancellation explained properly to them - ie. Why you have alternate airfields and why it is dangerous to fly without them.
Personally I would rather get there late, in one piece than not get there at all.
On the subject of weather - sounds like you are having it bad in the UK at the moment.
I moved from the UK to the USA this year and am experiencing my first winter here. I'm 160 miles north of Chicago and know full well the extent of weather on aviation here.
It's currently minus 20 C - and I used to complain about English weather!
Last week It took me three days to fly from Chicago to my home town of Appleton (a 40 minute flight!)
I was delayed last year on a flight from LHR to Toronto. The flight got delayed twice, then cancelled, only to be reinstated a few hours later.
Most Pax did exactly as you said - formed militant groups and severely harrassed the poor airline employees, threatening to hang them etc.
Personally, I went to a bar, pulled out my book and had a couple of pints whilst reading! I didn't shout at anybody, but just let the others get on with it.
Guess who got the upgrade to first class?
One thing I have learned by all the flying that I do is that if you are calm and understanding in a situation like this, then you will probably get treated better yourself.
On the subject of the flight that was cancelled due to no alternate - I'm not sure your average pax would understand the concept of alternates - they probably don't realise what's involved with planning a flight and probably think you just get in the cockpit 5 minutes before a flight, take off and point the aircraft in the correct direction.
Was the reason for the cancellation explained properly to them - ie. Why you have alternate airfields and why it is dangerous to fly without them.
Personally I would rather get there late, in one piece than not get there at all.
On the subject of weather - sounds like you are having it bad in the UK at the moment.
I moved from the UK to the USA this year and am experiencing my first winter here. I'm 160 miles north of Chicago and know full well the extent of weather on aviation here.
It's currently minus 20 C - and I used to complain about English weather!
Last week It took me three days to fly from Chicago to my home town of Appleton (a 40 minute flight!)
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TBone, I think that many pax are uncomfortable with so many things being out of their control when they fly an airplane. Window or aisle and chicken or beef are about the only decisions that they get to exert any control over. Frustration needs to be vented by some, we just use pprune rather than a gate agents ear! Be thankful that, in delay situatuins when the pax are onboard, at least you up in the pointy end are spared the questions/shouting that we get in the back! 757 is quite right in realizing that the pax that sits back and smiles quietly will definitely get the better treatment than the 'squeaky wheel'!
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The best thing I heard this summer was when we had a huge delay on our flight because the inbound aircraft had been delayed due to the fact that the airport it was at had suffered a serious (like entire island) power cut. Being nighttime meant that no one could get in or out.
This was explained in detail to an angry passenger by one of our reps.
He was extremely rude and even had the audacity to turn to her and say "Do you think I'm stupid? That is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard! Can't you think up something better than that!".
So it gave us great pleasure to stress the reason for the delay when we finally got underway.
I have also been a passenger on delayed flights. One, from a notorious ski resort, the aircraft couldn't get in due to fog, etc. So it diverted and we were bussed over to it. There was a small band of passengers forming, and having a go at the agent, because they discovered that later on, aircraft were landing. Due to the fact the fog had cleared. So they decided that our pilots were obviously rubbish and that is why they couldn't land. I have to say though, that the rep during that coach journey and also in the airport was 100% useless and had no idea what he was doing.
Personally I think in the main its best to ensure that everyone has the reason for the delay, so that the truth gets through. That means that reps, agents, etc. and crew are all saying the same thing.
Once explained, passengers are generally OK. The main problem I have found is where the outbound flight is delayed and then during the week's holiday, a few people get together and talk the delay up and decide they should be given lots of compensation.
I had a flight delayed a couple of hours recently due to both ground handling/ facilities problems and tech problem. We kept the passengers informed throughout and it was nice that many of the passengers thanked us for keeping them so well informed and went away happy.
Any passenger who is rude should be taken outside and shot.
But the best defence is the magic word "safety". Such as "we cannot depart as it would be unsafe to undertake this flight in the prevailing conditions" or even claim that it is not legal due to safety reasons (the no alternate situation)".
Generally those two words pacify them.
This was explained in detail to an angry passenger by one of our reps.
He was extremely rude and even had the audacity to turn to her and say "Do you think I'm stupid? That is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard! Can't you think up something better than that!".
So it gave us great pleasure to stress the reason for the delay when we finally got underway.
I have also been a passenger on delayed flights. One, from a notorious ski resort, the aircraft couldn't get in due to fog, etc. So it diverted and we were bussed over to it. There was a small band of passengers forming, and having a go at the agent, because they discovered that later on, aircraft were landing. Due to the fact the fog had cleared. So they decided that our pilots were obviously rubbish and that is why they couldn't land. I have to say though, that the rep during that coach journey and also in the airport was 100% useless and had no idea what he was doing.
Personally I think in the main its best to ensure that everyone has the reason for the delay, so that the truth gets through. That means that reps, agents, etc. and crew are all saying the same thing.
Once explained, passengers are generally OK. The main problem I have found is where the outbound flight is delayed and then during the week's holiday, a few people get together and talk the delay up and decide they should be given lots of compensation.
I had a flight delayed a couple of hours recently due to both ground handling/ facilities problems and tech problem. We kept the passengers informed throughout and it was nice that many of the passengers thanked us for keeping them so well informed and went away happy.
Any passenger who is rude should be taken outside and shot.
But the best defence is the magic word "safety". Such as "we cannot depart as it would be unsafe to undertake this flight in the prevailing conditions" or even claim that it is not legal due to safety reasons (the no alternate situation)".
Generally those two words pacify them.
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TBone,
The airspace around EDI and GLA has been such a dream to operate these last few days with jets only, we're thinking of making the TMA an ATP/Shed Free Zone
Seriously though, in my experience the flow of information at the gate/lounge is sometimes non existent or misleading. Like the others here I don't get too upset about that. I know what can and does go wrong in aviation and accept that as part of the travel 'experience'. However there will always be the drink fuelled imbecile around to rally the sheep and make the airline staffs time unpleasant.
Many a time I've sat on an aircraft and heard the comments from the minority of SLF around state that the Captain's explanation is 'B**llocks'. Or hear them sigh and tut when it's announced we will be 10 minutes late....shock, horror...10 MINUTES LATE!! Having attempted in the past to explain further about what the Captain has said to said neanderthals and recieving a look as though I have two heads, I no longer even try
I would make a plea though not to lie, especially about ATC delays. Many of us in the ATC world who travel extensively do actually make a point of checking. More to see what's wrong with our end of the operation than yours I hasten to add. And on one or two occasions the 'alleged' delay has simply not existed. Fortunately most of the lounge staff now know the 'ATC regulars' and accept our light hearted suggestion that the flight can now go as there's no ATC delay A quick phone call from them and they are soon fed the truth about the lost pax, bags which do not tally, lack of tug, catering problems, late incoming crew, staff sickness, etc, etc, etc....... Now why weren't they just told that by their Ops staff in the first place ?? 
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
The airspace around EDI and GLA has been such a dream to operate these last few days with jets only, we're thinking of making the TMA an ATP/Shed Free Zone
Seriously though, in my experience the flow of information at the gate/lounge is sometimes non existent or misleading. Like the others here I don't get too upset about that. I know what can and does go wrong in aviation and accept that as part of the travel 'experience'. However there will always be the drink fuelled imbecile around to rally the sheep and make the airline staffs time unpleasant.
Many a time I've sat on an aircraft and heard the comments from the minority of SLF around state that the Captain's explanation is 'B**llocks'. Or hear them sigh and tut when it's announced we will be 10 minutes late....shock, horror...10 MINUTES LATE!! Having attempted in the past to explain further about what the Captain has said to said neanderthals and recieving a look as though I have two heads, I no longer even try
I would make a plea though not to lie, especially about ATC delays. Many of us in the ATC world who travel extensively do actually make a point of checking. More to see what's wrong with our end of the operation than yours I hasten to add. And on one or two occasions the 'alleged' delay has simply not existed. Fortunately most of the lounge staff now know the 'ATC regulars' and accept our light hearted suggestion that the flight can now go as there's no ATC delay
A quick phone call from them and they are soon fed the truth about the lost pax, bags which do not tally, lack of tug, catering problems, late incoming crew, staff sickness, etc, etc, etc....... Now why weren't they just told that by their Ops staff in the first place ?? ------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
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Any pax who has been conscientiously reading these forums for a while will have gained valuable knowledge about the reasons why delays sometimes occur. If I may be allowed to say so we're going to be the ones who understand, rather than the troublemakers. When it comes to situations like these, it amazes me how people have the nerve to second guess the aviation professionals.
Just another example of how the information on these forums can educate (as well as inspire) the "layperson". For those willing to seek out more and better information, they serve as an antidote to the stories the general media feed us about aviation. For that let me say a big thank you!
SevenFiftySeven - best wishes for surviving your first winter in the Upper Midwest! When my paternal grandfather passed away in January 1989 (funeral in Kimberly - my mom is from the grand metropolis of Freedom, I was born in Appleton), the nighttime low was a brisk minus 20F and in the daytime it warmed up to a balmy minus 8F! But they did have a warm spell in the (positive) teens and 20s before I left.
According to my Sierra Club Guide to the North Woods you are now living in a place with a Summer climate that is like that of Paris, a Winter climate like that of Moscow!
Would you know if fog still delays flights in and out of ATW? My grandparents had to go by coach between ATW and MKE (or ORD) so many times I lost count! I've been flying in to MKE for the past several years (as opposed to ATW or GRB) because it's generally cheaper to hire a car there, and then I just head up Highway 57 (on the other side of the lake) - a beautiful drive, actually.
IMHO the (Fox River) Valley is actually a rather unique place. In many ways still the "community" that has vanished from so many places in the US - but sometimes (unfortunately) it can seem very provincial.
Pax D (actually flew on Air Wisconsin several times in a/c with the complete avocado and burnt orange livery, and it used to take more than 40 minutes ORD-ATW in a nine passenger bugsmasher, great uncle was the architect for the original 1970s ATW terminal, and wonders if anyone's actually talked you in to going ice fishing for sturgeon on Lake Winnebago yet )
When it comes to situations like these, it amazes me how people have the nerve to second guess the aviation professionals.Just another example of how the information on these forums can educate (as well as inspire) the "layperson". For those willing to seek out more and better information, they serve as an antidote to the stories the general media feed us about aviation. For that let me say a big thank you!
SevenFiftySeven - best wishes for surviving your first winter in the Upper Midwest! When my paternal grandfather passed away in January 1989 (funeral in Kimberly - my mom is from the grand metropolis of Freedom, I was born in Appleton), the nighttime low was a brisk minus 20F and in the daytime it warmed up to a balmy minus 8F! But they did have a warm spell in the (positive) teens and 20s before I left.
According to my Sierra Club Guide to the North Woods you are now living in a place with a Summer climate that is like that of Paris, a Winter climate like that of Moscow!
Would you know if fog still delays flights in and out of ATW? My grandparents had to go by coach between ATW and MKE (or ORD) so many times I lost count! I've been flying in to MKE for the past several years (as opposed to ATW or GRB) because it's generally cheaper to hire a car there, and then I just head up Highway 57 (on the other side of the lake) - a beautiful drive, actually.
IMHO the (Fox River) Valley is actually a rather unique place. In many ways still the "community" that has vanished from so many places in the US - but sometimes (unfortunately) it can seem very provincial.
Pax D (actually flew on Air Wisconsin several times in a/c with the complete avocado and burnt orange livery, and it used to take more than 40 minutes ORD-ATW in a nine passenger bugsmasher, great uncle was the architect for the original 1970s ATW terminal, and wonders if anyone's actually talked you in to going ice fishing for sturgeon on Lake Winnebago yet
)
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pax domina - not experienced delays due to fog at ATW, but have experienced cancellations due to snow and ice!
Actually, it's not bad - United Express (Air Wisconsin) uses BAe 146 on the ATW - ORD flights, which I love, especially flying over the snow at this time of year - fantastic.
I find it funny though that I fly transatlantic for 9 hours LHR - ORD on an aircraft with only 2 engines (767/777) to then be one of only a handful of people to board a 35 minute flight on a jet with 4 engines! (Boy - can 146's shift when there's only 5 people on board - especially when the pilots put their foot down on takeoff.)
Yep, know it's cheaper to drive, but love flying too much - and my company is the one who picks up the bill!
No-one has bothered asking me to go ice fishing - they know not to bother!!
Everyone else - sorry for hijacking this thread, but this is the first person I've spoken to on the web who knows where Appleton is!
Actually, it's not bad - United Express (Air Wisconsin) uses BAe 146 on the ATW - ORD flights, which I love, especially flying over the snow at this time of year - fantastic.
I find it funny though that I fly transatlantic for 9 hours LHR - ORD on an aircraft with only 2 engines (767/777) to then be one of only a handful of people to board a 35 minute flight on a jet with 4 engines! (Boy - can 146's shift when there's only 5 people on board - especially when the pilots put their foot down on takeoff.)
Yep, know it's cheaper to drive, but love flying too much - and my company is the one who picks up the bill!
No-one has bothered asking me to go ice fishing - they know not to bother!!
Everyone else - sorry for hijacking this thread, but this is the first person I've spoken to on the web who knows where Appleton is!
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TBone wrote:
<<An example... yesterday, a flight was cancelled to a Scottish island because there was no alternate airport available for diversion. Every other airfield within flying distance was closed or out of limits. Some people had been waiting three days to get home, and I understand their frustration, especially as upon phoning the island, they discovered that the weather was almost perfect.>>
What about round trip fuel? Sometimes I think us in the airlines do not try hard enough to see things from the pax point of view, and we are a service industry, so it is the only view which counts. Airlines are pathetic at telling the punters whats happening, even a little information will go a long way in helping. Take enough fuel to get you back, then explain fewer folks can go! Easy!
<<An example... yesterday, a flight was cancelled to a Scottish island because there was no alternate airport available for diversion. Every other airfield within flying distance was closed or out of limits. Some people had been waiting three days to get home, and I understand their frustration, especially as upon phoning the island, they discovered that the weather was almost perfect.>>
What about round trip fuel? Sometimes I think us in the airlines do not try hard enough to see things from the pax point of view, and we are a service industry, so it is the only view which counts. Airlines are pathetic at telling the punters whats happening, even a little information will go a long way in helping. Take enough fuel to get you back, then explain fewer folks can go! Easy!
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R2A,
A very good point, but believe me when i said there was no alternate, I meant no alternate ! Glasgow could not be relied on to stay open for the return, leaving us with MAN (about to go out of limits) or BHX.
"Sir, if you would like to attempt to get to Stornoway, we would be happy to take you. Only snag is, we need fuel to return to Birmingham which means we can only take your three year old son and if we don't get in, he'll be even further South than he is now !"
The extremes of weather were unusual, even for Scotland, and I suppose I expected some kind of understanding from the passengers.
However, only the other day, walking through the terminal I saw a red-faced shouting man calm down and say 'thanks, you're the first person who's bothered to tell us anything' to one of the ground staff. I thought communication was generally quite good between airlines and pax but that week opened my eyes.
As the man said, we don't get much aggro up front.
(10W.. it's the sheer high speed of these babies that keeps you on your toes, isn't it. Don't worry about it, many a controller has lost it when a couple of BAe's finest enter their airspace )
A very good point, but believe me when i said there was no alternate, I meant no alternate ! Glasgow could not be relied on to stay open for the return, leaving us with MAN (about to go out of limits) or BHX.
"Sir, if you would like to attempt to get to Stornoway, we would be happy to take you. Only snag is, we need fuel to return to Birmingham which means we can only take your three year old son and if we don't get in, he'll be even further South than he is now !"
The extremes of weather were unusual, even for Scotland, and I suppose I expected some kind of understanding from the passengers.
However, only the other day, walking through the terminal I saw a red-faced shouting man calm down and say 'thanks, you're the first person who's bothered to tell us anything' to one of the ground staff. I thought communication was generally quite good between airlines and pax but that week opened my eyes.
As the man said, we don't get much aggro up front.
(10W.. it's the sheer high speed of these babies that keeps you on your toes, isn't it. Don't worry about it, many a controller has lost it when a couple of BAe's finest enter their airspace
)
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R2A,
Appreciate your point on round trip fuel, but does it not also still depend on several other factors. Assuming the a/c operting isn't ETOPS, it's not just a case of getting back if the destination airfield closes as well. What happens if you lose an engine?
Long time since I was a regular in Nav, but surely some a/c types are restricted in distance from avail alternate/s?
Correct me if i'm wrong, it's always useful to know....
rgrds.
[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 06 January 2001).]
Appreciate your point on round trip fuel, but does it not also still depend on several other factors. Assuming the a/c operting isn't ETOPS, it's not just a case of getting back if the destination airfield closes as well. What happens if you lose an engine?
Long time since I was a regular in Nav, but surely some a/c types are restricted in distance from avail alternate/s?
Correct me if i'm wrong, it's always useful to know....
rgrds.
[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 06 January 2001).]
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The abusive passenger taking it out on those who cannot change the situation does not just occur in airlines. My brother is a train driver, and I once witnessed him taking the same type of abuse. He was travelling home at the end of his shift, so in uniform, and our train was delayed through a lack of a driver. Passenger is obnoxiously abusive to him for not taking over for the missing driver, and would not accept that my brother was not trained on type and at the limit of his duty hours. In any type of transport system both factors are clear safety issues, but clearly some people prefer punctuality at the risk of safety. I cannot image that a certain type of airline passenger is any better, and trying to explain probably counts as wasting ones breath. (By the way, turns out that the passenger giving my brother grief worked for the Post Office, which he portrayed as the epitome of organisational efficiency. This opinion I occasionally recall when queuing for ever at the Post Office.)
Think the problem for the irate delayed passenger is the uncertainty, and unfortunately somebody in a uniform is an available target to vent some of the frustration. It is wrong, misguided and I do not understand it myself (tend to take roughly the same chilled out attitude as SevenFiftySeven - got enough other things to be tense about!), but some people are like that. Mind, what 10W says about being honest about the length of delay is important. If we, as the humble pax, know we are going to be delayed for hours it is easier to mentally adjust.
Think the problem for the irate delayed passenger is the uncertainty, and unfortunately somebody in a uniform is an available target to vent some of the frustration. It is wrong, misguided and I do not understand it myself (tend to take roughly the same chilled out attitude as SevenFiftySeven - got enough other things to be tense about!), but some people are like that. Mind, what 10W says about being honest about the length of delay is important. If we, as the humble pax, know we are going to be delayed for hours it is easier to mentally adjust.
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One of the major headaches with delays, particularly when the weather is severely grot, or the jet severely tech for example, is when you are faced with the option of offloading the pax back in to the lounge. Often you have to make that decision based on the comfort factor of a long wait in the aircraft vs a long wait in the lounge. It is extremely frustrating tho, when, once eveything is repaired or a slot comes through or the weather improves to find that half of your pax have gone walkabout and can't/won't be found.
On the other hand, my own view is that it is simply not cricket to lie to pax about the reason for the dealy; there is no need to be too technical, a concise explanation should be enough. Finally, if any pax feel the need to abusive, the Commander can always decline to carry them.
On the other hand, my own view is that it is simply not cricket to lie to pax about the reason for the dealy; there is no need to be too technical, a concise explanation should be enough. Finally, if any pax feel the need to abusive, the Commander can always decline to carry them.
