Same crap different day !!
Thread Starter
Same crap different day !!
Been trying to track Monarch ZB 234 out of LGW to ACE today at 15.10.
I fully realise that conditions are very poor.
I received several calls from the passenger who I am awaiting, updating me on how things were progressing.
I got a call saying they had boarded around 15.20, followed by another soon afterwards, saying that she had been advised that the rwy was being closed for 1 hour for de-icing.
After that, I tried tracking the progress on various sites, including the LGW site.
Every one was giving different information.
I contacted Monarch, who contacted operations, who advised that the flt would arrive in ACE at 20.50, not so bad I thought.
I explained the problems I was having getting solid info, at which point the contact advised that since this info was from Ops, it could be relied on.
20 mins later I get a call from the passenger advising me that they had been disembarked without further information. That is where she is now, sitting in LGW waiting for updates.
Funny how Ops reckons that flight is somewhere over Spain at this moment.
Why do they bother and what is the point of putting out misleading info.
This problem is not unique to the aviation industry, it is simply that they are the worst by far when it comes to accurate info.
I know the conditions are bad but this is nothing to do with conditions and more to do with sheer disregard of the truth
If they do not take-off before 20.00, they will not take off at all.
ACE closes at midnight. Will they provide overnight accom ?
I fully realise that conditions are very poor.
I received several calls from the passenger who I am awaiting, updating me on how things were progressing.
I got a call saying they had boarded around 15.20, followed by another soon afterwards, saying that she had been advised that the rwy was being closed for 1 hour for de-icing.
After that, I tried tracking the progress on various sites, including the LGW site.
Every one was giving different information.
I contacted Monarch, who contacted operations, who advised that the flt would arrive in ACE at 20.50, not so bad I thought.
I explained the problems I was having getting solid info, at which point the contact advised that since this info was from Ops, it could be relied on.
20 mins later I get a call from the passenger advising me that they had been disembarked without further information. That is where she is now, sitting in LGW waiting for updates.
Funny how Ops reckons that flight is somewhere over Spain at this moment.
Why do they bother and what is the point of putting out misleading info.
This problem is not unique to the aviation industry, it is simply that they are the worst by far when it comes to accurate info.
I know the conditions are bad but this is nothing to do with conditions and more to do with sheer disregard of the truth
If they do not take-off before 20.00, they will not take off at all.
ACE closes at midnight. Will they provide overnight accom ?
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The problem is the weather. The runway is closed for de-icing operations. The airport provides the airline operators with the anticipated time of re-opening. If it transpires that estimate is unreliable, then it will update and amend the estimate. Until an "Ok" is give from the clearance and inspection crews, the runway will not open irrespective of the inconvenience to all parties.
In the meantime, not only are delays building up in the terminal, but inbound aircraft needed for subsequent services are being diverted to other airports. Those aircraft waiting for departure are also themselves in one queue for a takeoff sequence and another for air traffic co-ordination once they eventually get airborne.
On top of this, crews waiting to take these flights out are on a duty time limitation where the clock started ticking when they reported for work. If they run out of hours a replacement crew is called out. These crews are then themselves affected by the weather and the disruption on the roads often causing further delays.
When operations pass on an anticipated time, it is obviously a "best guess" based on the information that is available to them (from many sources) at any given moment. They are not providing misleading information, nor do they not know where the aircraft is. It is stuck on the ground along with everybody else. It has absolutely nothing to do with a disregard of the truth, it has everything to do with a situation that involves multiple agencies all needing co-ordination when faced with a changeable and dynamic situation.
The airlines want their flights away. The crews all want to get away and safely home again. The passengers all want to get to their destinations. Everybody is frustrated and inconvenienced.
We work in an industry where accuracy is an intrinsic part of the operation. However when weather shuts down an airport, we cannot do anything other than wait for the the airport to re-open, and once advised that it is, work to get our flights away as expeditiously as possible given the other problems that will be a consequence of the earlier disruption.
In the meantime, not only are delays building up in the terminal, but inbound aircraft needed for subsequent services are being diverted to other airports. Those aircraft waiting for departure are also themselves in one queue for a takeoff sequence and another for air traffic co-ordination once they eventually get airborne.
On top of this, crews waiting to take these flights out are on a duty time limitation where the clock started ticking when they reported for work. If they run out of hours a replacement crew is called out. These crews are then themselves affected by the weather and the disruption on the roads often causing further delays.
When operations pass on an anticipated time, it is obviously a "best guess" based on the information that is available to them (from many sources) at any given moment. They are not providing misleading information, nor do they not know where the aircraft is. It is stuck on the ground along with everybody else. It has absolutely nothing to do with a disregard of the truth, it has everything to do with a situation that involves multiple agencies all needing co-ordination when faced with a changeable and dynamic situation.
The airlines want their flights away. The crews all want to get away and safely home again. The passengers all want to get to their destinations. Everybody is frustrated and inconvenienced.
We work in an industry where accuracy is an intrinsic part of the operation. However when weather shuts down an airport, we cannot do anything other than wait for the the airport to re-open, and once advised that it is, work to get our flights away as expeditiously as possible given the other problems that will be a consequence of the earlier disruption.
Thread Starter
I have a reasonable understanding and sympathy of and for the complexities of running such an operation in the vagaries of the English winter clime.
That is a total given.
What I fail to understand is why the operations department of a major UK charter airline advise me that the aircraft has been in the air for just under 2 hours, when the aircraft is in fact stuck in an airport where the staff are working their butts off trying create conditions where aircraft movements can proceed in a safe and orderly fashion.
If the ops people are not aware that the aircraft is temporarily grounded, then who does.
That is the nub of the matter.
Thank you for you concise reply.
That is a total given.
What I fail to understand is why the operations department of a major UK charter airline advise me that the aircraft has been in the air for just under 2 hours, when the aircraft is in fact stuck in an airport where the staff are working their butts off trying create conditions where aircraft movements can proceed in a safe and orderly fashion.
If the ops people are not aware that the aircraft is temporarily grounded, then who does.
That is the nub of the matter.
Thank you for you concise reply.
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I contacted Monarch, who contacted operations, who advised that the flt would arrive in ACE at 20.50, not so bad I thought.
I explained the problems I was having getting solid info, at which point the contact advised that since this info was from Ops, it could be relied on.
20 mins later I get a call from the passenger advising me that they had been disembarked without further information. That is where she is now, sitting in LGW waiting for updates.
I explained the problems I was having getting solid info, at which point the contact advised that since this info was from Ops, it could be relied on.
20 mins later I get a call from the passenger advising me that they had been disembarked without further information. That is where she is now, sitting in LGW waiting for updates.
My understanding of what you said, was that you contacted Monarch (customer services?) who in turn obtained the latest information from operations. Depending on the time you called, they might well have anticipated an arrival at a particular time. Whatever the case, the operations department will pass on to the relevant parties the information it has at periodic intervals. Operations do not deal with public enquiries, so it is unlikely they would have advised you of anything directly. More likely you were being provided the latest information that had been given to customer services.
As I have already stated, everybody is frustrated by a fluid timescale, that cannot be relied upon. Even when the runway does open there will be a host of other considerations not least the fact that as you say your airport is not a 24 hour operation.
Thread Starter
This is the problem.
I was kept hanging on during an international call whilst Operations was called.
I was told categorically that the flight would arrive at ACE 20.50.
I questioned the veracity of the statement and was assured of its accuracy.
The aircraft was on the ground.
Do you think I was misinformed or were they flat out lying?
I was kept hanging on during an international call whilst Operations was called.
I was told categorically that the flight would arrive at ACE 20.50.
I questioned the veracity of the statement and was assured of its accuracy.
The aircraft was on the ground.
Do you think I was misinformed or were they flat out lying?
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No I cannot imagine why anybody would lie to you, what would be the point?
I do not know if you were misinformed. It would depend on the information that was being disseminated at that time. As this information seems to have been relayed, it is possible it was misunderstood at some point in the chain. It is also possible it was the best guess at that time. Perhaps it was the expected departure time, or the scheduled arrival time. Who knows?
If you are in contact with the passenger you are waiting for, they are probably going to be your best source of information, as they are at the gate or getting the latest anticipated departure time from the on site departure boards.
If the runway remains closed, then every airline is in much the same situation, and will be unable to do anything more than provide a best guess for the departure time of their flights. Some will delay flights, others will cancel them. It depends on the circumstances. All anyone can do is wait.
I do not know if you were misinformed. It would depend on the information that was being disseminated at that time. As this information seems to have been relayed, it is possible it was misunderstood at some point in the chain. It is also possible it was the best guess at that time. Perhaps it was the expected departure time, or the scheduled arrival time. Who knows?
If you are in contact with the passenger you are waiting for, they are probably going to be your best source of information, as they are at the gate or getting the latest anticipated departure time from the on site departure boards.
If the runway remains closed, then every airline is in much the same situation, and will be unable to do anything more than provide a best guess for the departure time of their flights. Some will delay flights, others will cancel them. It depends on the circumstances. All anyone can do is wait.
Thread Starter
Bealzebub, You are right of course and I appreciate you valuable information.
The passenger in question, my daughter, is still on the ground.
The flight time between LGW and ACE at best is 3hrs 35mins.
ACE closes at midnight, 20 mins later in special circumstances.
I think she is on an all-nighter in LGW.
Will they provide accomodation do you think or is she likely to be sleeping on a bench ?
Just had a call this minute. Flight cancelled !! No surprise there !!
Where do you think that leaves her. What you advise ??
The passenger in question, my daughter, is still on the ground.
The flight time between LGW and ACE at best is 3hrs 35mins.
ACE closes at midnight, 20 mins later in special circumstances.
I think she is on an all-nighter in LGW.
Will they provide accomodation do you think or is she likely to be sleeping on a bench ?
Just had a call this minute. Flight cancelled !! No surprise there !!
Where do you think that leaves her. What you advise ??
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El Grifo
Despite the extraordinary circumstances when all members of staff were undoubtedly extremely busy, at least one employee took the time and effort to attempt to address your enquiry directly. As Bealzebub explains there are a lot of variables to consider and the person who dealt with you gave you the best answer they could based on the information available to them (were they aware you were making an international call?). I understand how frustrating this must be for you, but IMO the fact that they took the time to contact Ops in such circumstances demonstrates good customer service that would be lacking from a lot of other airlines.
Edit........................................................ ........
Just read your last post re. your daughter.
Sorry- I didn't understand your situation totally. For what its worth I once experienced a cancelled monarch flight AGP-MAN a few years back. Staff were totally professional. Got some of us onto a BA flight to LGW then bussed us home (the rest were put up in a hotel. It was a technical fault but they still bent over backwards to help everyone, going far beyond what the minimum requirements in such a situation). Monarch are often more expensive than their competitors, but the standard of service is higher too. On past experience I'd say your daughter will be well looked after.
Hope things work out alright for you.
This is the problem.
I was kept hanging on during an international call whilst Operations was called.
I was told categorically that the flight would arrive at ACE 20.50.
I questioned the veracity of the statement and was assured of its accuracy.
The aircraft was on the ground.
Do you think I was misinformed or were they flat out lying?
I was kept hanging on during an international call whilst Operations was called.
I was told categorically that the flight would arrive at ACE 20.50.
I questioned the veracity of the statement and was assured of its accuracy.
The aircraft was on the ground.
Do you think I was misinformed or were they flat out lying?
Edit........................................................ ........
Just read your last post re. your daughter.
Sorry- I didn't understand your situation totally. For what its worth I once experienced a cancelled monarch flight AGP-MAN a few years back. Staff were totally professional. Got some of us onto a BA flight to LGW then bussed us home (the rest were put up in a hotel. It was a technical fault but they still bent over backwards to help everyone, going far beyond what the minimum requirements in such a situation). Monarch are often more expensive than their competitors, but the standard of service is higher too. On past experience I'd say your daughter will be well looked after.
Hope things work out alright for you.
Thread Starter
Thanks for that Anansis.
Currently trying to book her on another flight tomorrow.
Strangely enough same flt. no. at same time coming up for tomorrow. Does that perhaps indicate a re-schedule, or should I just re-book.
I bow to your superior, collective knowledge folks !
Currently trying to book her on another flight tomorrow.
Strangely enough same flt. no. at same time coming up for tomorrow. Does that perhaps indicate a re-schedule, or should I just re-book.
I bow to your superior, collective knowledge folks !
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That will be the next scheduled flight.
The airline is not responsible for weather related delays, but if she speaks with an airline representative or Swissport the handling agent, they should be able to assist her with protecting a flight for the following day, if there is a seat available. Obviously it is the run up to Christmas, and she needs to do this quickly. Given that everybody else will be trying to do the same thing, it might be useful if you telephone to assist.
Regarding accomodation, there are lots of cancelled and disrupted flights which will be putting a heavy demand on local hotels. If it was my daughter I would be on the computer or phoning around to secure her a hotel room as quickly as possible unless there are already arrangements in place.
The Hilton and Holiday Inn at LGW are full, and I haven't searched any others. However only a short train ride to Brighton if she gets stuck and the Hilton metropole is offering this rate for £69 tonight.
The airline is not responsible for weather related delays, but if she speaks with an airline representative or Swissport the handling agent, they should be able to assist her with protecting a flight for the following day, if there is a seat available. Obviously it is the run up to Christmas, and she needs to do this quickly. Given that everybody else will be trying to do the same thing, it might be useful if you telephone to assist.
Regarding accomodation, there are lots of cancelled and disrupted flights which will be putting a heavy demand on local hotels. If it was my daughter I would be on the computer or phoning around to secure her a hotel room as quickly as possible unless there are already arrangements in place.
The Hilton and Holiday Inn at LGW are full, and I haven't searched any others. However only a short train ride to Brighton if she gets stuck and the Hilton metropole is offering this rate for £69 tonight.
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Hi,
i understand your frustration.
The weather has just been awful here this week,
I Just copied this from their website.
"Our primary concern is to transport you to your destination safely and on time, but in the event of your flight being delayed or cancelled, or that you are denied boarding due to over booking, Monarch Airlines is aware of our obligations under the European legislation regarding your rights to compensation (Regulation (EC) 261/2004).
If, after you purchase your ticket, we make a significant change to the scheduled flight time, which is not acceptable to you, and we are unable to book you on an alternate flight, which is acceptable to you, you will be entitled to a refund for the ticket or the portion of the ticket as applicable."
Just to add,we were delayed with monarch flying out a couple of chrismasses ago.
We were on the plane,then off,then on again,Then back in the airport.
Ironically we ended up back in the hilton airport where we had stayed before.
I will say monarch were great,they gae a a 3 course meal,& we stayed overnight,& then flew out early the nevxt day.
i understand your frustration.
The weather has just been awful here this week,
I Just copied this from their website.
"Our primary concern is to transport you to your destination safely and on time, but in the event of your flight being delayed or cancelled, or that you are denied boarding due to over booking, Monarch Airlines is aware of our obligations under the European legislation regarding your rights to compensation (Regulation (EC) 261/2004).
If, after you purchase your ticket, we make a significant change to the scheduled flight time, which is not acceptable to you, and we are unable to book you on an alternate flight, which is acceptable to you, you will be entitled to a refund for the ticket or the portion of the ticket as applicable."
Just to add,we were delayed with monarch flying out a couple of chrismasses ago.
We were on the plane,then off,then on again,Then back in the airport.
Ironically we ended up back in the hilton airport where we had stayed before.
I will say monarch were great,they gae a a 3 course meal,& we stayed overnight,& then flew out early the nevxt day.
Thread Starter
She is three from the front of the queue at the monarch desk, I am hanging on to a seat for tomorrows flight ready to press the pay button, but she is overhearing information from the desk about 5 inches of snow forecast tomorrow and the low possibilities of flights going.
Its like a cheap drama being played out in front of my eyes.
Pretty good feedback though guys.
I love Pprune but have never used it in such a live kind of way.
Back to the mobile and the keyboard. Watch this space !!
Any suggestions are welcome needless to say
Its like a cheap drama being played out in front of my eyes.
Pretty good feedback though guys.
I love Pprune but have never used it in such a live kind of way.
Back to the mobile and the keyboard. Watch this space !!
Any suggestions are welcome needless to say
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There are rooms available at the Premier inns at both crawley south (golf parks) & crawley east.
Both are just a couple of miles from gatwick & both at £69.00.
Phone numbers are ///
crawley sth 0870 990 6390.
crawley east 0870 990 6546
Both are just a couple of miles from gatwick & both at £69.00.
Phone numbers are ///
crawley sth 0870 990 6390.
crawley east 0870 990 6546
Thread Starter
Nothing beats local knowledge
She has reached the front of the queue and has been booked on ZB 234 from LTN tomorrow pm
The weather forecast is lousy, Luton has not faired so well over the last 24 hrs as far as I can gather from my little rock in the atlantic.
Anyone able to throw any light on the odds of getting out of LTN tomorrow.
Thanks for your excellent feedback folks. I started off a bit arsey and don't really deserve it.
En Saludos
El Grifo
She has reached the front of the queue and has been booked on ZB 234 from LTN tomorrow pm
The weather forecast is lousy, Luton has not faired so well over the last 24 hrs as far as I can gather from my little rock in the atlantic.
Anyone able to throw any light on the odds of getting out of LTN tomorrow.
Thanks for your excellent feedback folks. I started off a bit arsey and don't really deserve it.
En Saludos
El Grifo
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If you pay for the flight & it doesn't go tomorrow,then you would be entitled to refund anyway.
I hope your daughter is okay.
She must be 2nd in the queue now...?
I hope your daughter is okay.
She must be 2nd in the queue now...?
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De nada.
bbc news weather for luton p.m.tues
Tuesday
Any rain, sleet or snow over the east of the region slowly clearing, the day then dry with some bright or sunny spells developing.
Has given clear visibility temp -4 18.00 hrs 94% 988mb
bbc news weather for luton p.m.tues
Tuesday
Any rain, sleet or snow over the east of the region slowly clearing, the day then dry with some bright or sunny spells developing.
Has given clear visibility temp -4 18.00 hrs 94% 988mb
Thread Starter
Hey, maybe there is a god 
I have always catagorised myself in life as an optimistic pessimist.
The girl is safe and warm in a small hostelry not a stones throw from the terminal del norte and guess what, she has met an old flame from Norway who was travelling here on the same flight.
As the illustrious Zimmerman wrote " brought together by a simple twist of fate"
I'll be buggered !
Thanks all. I will post the good news of the imminent arrival tomorrow.
hasta banana
El G.
I have always catagorised myself in life as an optimistic pessimist.
The girl is safe and warm in a small hostelry not a stones throw from the terminal del norte and guess what, she has met an old flame from Norway who was travelling here on the same flight.
As the illustrious Zimmerman wrote " brought together by a simple twist of fate"
I'll be buggered !
Thanks all. I will post the good news of the imminent arrival tomorrow.
hasta banana
El G.
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Same crap different day
EZ from EMA to PRG
Cancelled on Saturday.
Cancelled on Sunday.
Cancelled again today.
Jeez.
Yes, wx probably is at the root (though the cynic in me wants to connect it with the impending base closure and skeleton crewing) but the real irony isn't just that I switched to easyJet after a bad run of cancellations with bmibaby or that I vowed never to fly with the latter again, but I've been rebooked on the latter for my return as it is after easyJet ceased operating from EMA!
To be fair, easyJet staff have handled cancellation far more efficiently and with much more tact than the multiple bmibaby occasions, each done so abruptly and verging on rudeness, but I obviously got unlucky this time; in 12 years of extremely regular Prague travel and 13 likewise to Sweden, I've never had a wx related cancellation from either end of the trip.
Cancelled on Saturday.
Cancelled on Sunday.
Cancelled again today.
Jeez.
Yes, wx probably is at the root (though the cynic in me wants to connect it with the impending base closure and skeleton crewing) but the real irony isn't just that I switched to easyJet after a bad run of cancellations with bmibaby or that I vowed never to fly with the latter again, but I've been rebooked on the latter for my return as it is after easyJet ceased operating from EMA!
To be fair, easyJet staff have handled cancellation far more efficiently and with much more tact than the multiple bmibaby occasions, each done so abruptly and verging on rudeness, but I obviously got unlucky this time; in 12 years of extremely regular Prague travel and 13 likewise to Sweden, I've never had a wx related cancellation from either end of the trip.
Last edited by The late XV105; 21st Dec 2009 at 23:03. Reason: missed out the last paragraph in cut and paste from Notepad.