Blades on planes.....are they legal??

[PAXboy]

LCD, thank you for all that trouble. I do not doubt you for a moment. I do not doubt that the staff employed in the name of 'security' have been given instructions that are a sub-set (above and below) the UK regulations. I have no doubt that they are not interested in the Home Secretary turning up with all the regulations printed on Parliament notepaper AND a 1cm blade. I have no doubt that this madness continues.

The greater part of this is that the politicians cover their @rse in the ten million to one chance that a pax goes berserk with a blade - as opposed to the glass bottles they sell on board, as we all point out!

So the airport managers repeat this and increase the range of items not allowed, so as to be able to defend themselves in court. The staff at the gate repeat and increase ... The resulting game of Chinese whispers must have Bin Laden and his friends giggling long into the night.

I have had a tiny pair of nail scissors taken off me (part of kit I was given) and the blades were less than 1cm long. Again, I could have been carrying a 2.5kg laptop and a bottle of whiskey. When they say that a pax has no need to take a blade as cabin luggage, they are correct! I am taking it because I am travelling for a short trip without checked baggage and so it is in my bag. I have never used the device I carry on board and have no intention of doing so. But, the manager would back up their gate staff and the Home secretary would back up the airports. So the process of, supposedly giving unambiguous instructions to the airports - turns into staff making up the rules as they go along. It's called 'human nature'.

Once again, thank you for your investigation.

[lowcostdolly]

You are very welcome Paxboy

Just to clarify a couple of points though. This was not an investigation on my part. I just wanted to fly legally as SLF with a Xmas gift and was confused by some of the advice/experiences given on this forum.

Even though I am also crew as well as SLF I am not so stupid to think I know everything......I am happy to ask anyone

The point of law was provided to me by the airport authorities charged with law enforcement......not the gate staff, their manager or a BAA screener.

When I advised contacting the authorities in my last paragraph I meant the Airport Police. They will advise impartially on the law regarding blades on planes and the consequences of disregarding this.

A thread of no consequence?

BTW Donalk...... loved it!! I've always wondered how the Pilots got these blades through security

[Final 3 Greens]

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.

I think this is a deeply misguided point of view.

The airport authorities can inform you whether they will let you travel with an object, but this is not the same thing.

[hotmetal]

LCD the airport security staff are not experts in law. They know the rules and have a barrack room lawyer idea of what they think the law says. The police can be a bit sketchy too sometimes. I have sat in a court room and seen a defendant charged with an offence by the police that doesn't even exist in law. Case dismissed. The airport security staff are the last people I would be asking about criminal law.

When you say 'the point of law was provided'; what point of law? Which Act of Parliment? What offence would the person be charged with?

[MathFox]

I have hinted on it before: What the law says might not be the final word, the airline is free to make its own "house rules" because they run the plane and the airport has some discretion in who (and what) they allow in their buildings. There is a fundamental difference between government rules (the law) and airport/airline rules: when you break the law, the government may take criminal action against you; when you break airline or airport rules, that is a civil affair between you and the airport or airline.
I just want to add one point: airlines and airports can not just make up rules on the spot; passengers have to be properly informed of rules (and rule changes) as the rules for carry-on luggage are technically part of the conditions of your contract for carriage.

[Final 3 Greens]

What the law says might not be the final word, the airline is free to make its own "house rules" because they run the plane and the airport has some discretion in who (and what) they allow in their buildings.

You are absolutely correct.

Which is why it is not illegal to carry a short blade on a flight, but it may be confiscated by the airport security personnel.

[clareprop]

So this week I pitched up at check in with my "legal blade". I also went armed with some posts and the list on this forum all of which tell me my blade was legal.

Was this check-in at the aiport where the flying pigs land? You know, the really, really big porkers?

[hotmetal]

I think a lowcost dolly around here is getting confused with laws and rules.

[PAXboy]

I think the people who are confused about Rules and Laws are the 'security' folks!!! They take any Rule they have been given and try to enforce it by saying that it's a law. They, I presume further, think that people may be more likely to kow-tow if told it's a Law, not just a Rule.

Of course, the end result is the same, follow the Rules or Laws or don't travel. So LCD is correct and the reaction she met is probably repeatable at any airport in the UK any day of the week. Lastly, I think she got treated better than a regular pax would have been, because she was (off duty) crew.

[MathFox]

Which is why it is not illegal to carry a short blade on a flight, but it may be confiscated by the airport security personnel.

Technically airport security personnel can not confiscate anything that would be legal to carry. They can ask you to voluntaryly surrender the object in order to access the secure area.

[lowcostdolly]

Would just like to add a few things here as this is now turning into a mature discusion rather than some personal attacks.

Clareprop...the airport was LGW and yes some flying Pigs do land there!! Speak to any crew from Monarch and that is what they affectionally call their A300's amoungst other things.

Hotmetal.....the point of law was provided to me by two armed police patrolling the departure hall. Pssed because I had had to check my small case containing an gift wrapped "potential weapon" I then asked them purely on spec. They told me you cannot take knives/blades on planes........various and informative info re rationales then forthcoming.

Now I may be naive here but if a uniformed police officer tells me this I take it as law.....no act of parliment quoted at that time etc (I didn't ask I have to admit) although I quoted these earlier as a point of reference. F3G may be able to comment on the offence you may be charged with as his associate got charged with this (his post on the Gatwick North thread). I just took the police at their word.

Paxboy I think you may be right re security regs and the law but I don't know or do I suspect does anyone including me on this thread really. However you are wrong on one thing. I didn't make it known I was off duty crew. I don't have to because we are treated no differently by security when we travel as SLF. However I queried in a civilised way so maybe that is why i was treated "better".

What concerns me is that we have a forum here where we have experienced pax posting their views on what is legal as if it is gospel. We then have crew (me) posting their views.

If I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".....sorry F3G.

BTW I meant the Police by airport authorities.....should have made that clearer. They enforce the law as i understand it so should give up to date and impartial advice.

Mathfox thank you.....I have learnt something from your posts

[clareprop]

Now I may be naive here but if a uniformed police officer tells me this I take it as law

Just so horribly incorrect, it hurts.
The law is the law as enacted by parliament. That is the law that has been quoted ad nauseum on at least three different threads.
You say that you decided to test all this for real and go on to quote people who, it would appear in your story, have made an interpretation of that law (what the policeman said, what the security man said, what the check-in agent said etc) If you were calmly trying to take a properly packaged 5.999cm knife on board and any of those people stopped you they would, according to the law, be in the wrong. However, real life says, you either put up with their ignorance (it's their sandpit) or you can sue them and spend £1000's to prove you were right all along.
Both sides of this argument are right. On one hand, the law says you can but on the other, practice says, unless you want to be anal about it, you can't.
Now for pity's sake let's take the whole subject out and shoot it...

[Final 3 Greens]

F3G may be able to comment on the offence you may be charged with as his associate got charged with this (his post on the Gatwick North thread).

Not relevant, as the blade on his pocket knife was greater than 6cms and also had a locking blade.

f I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".....sorry F3G.

From the point of view of whether they allow it on or not, you are correct.

However, this is not what you said, which was

If you want to confirm the law would suggest you contact the authorities at the airport from which you wish to fly.

As other posters have said, these are two different things and I stand by my comment in the context you set yourself.

Please may we just lay this subject to rest now, as Clareprop suggests?

[PAXboy]

lcd

If I were pax travelling for the first time/not sure of something I would be totally confused. Therefore my advice to check with the airport authorities re what you wish to carry as hand luggage is not a "misguided point of view".

I would like to agree with you but, what we have heard in this forum - across many similar subjects - is that the authorities (and I'm only slightly tongue in cheek on this):-

• Don't know.
• Off load the question onto someone /.some other authority
• Refer you to their website - which often has contradictory info and so that is why you are calling them!
• If you ask the carrier, they will tell you to speak to the airport owner, if you ask the airport owner they will tell you to ask the govt (many departments therein) and the govt will refer you to any of the above or, wait for it, their website!
• Lastly, if you consider the simple question of hand baggage (sans blades of any length) you will find different views from all of the three (gov/port/carrier) and when you try to follow the rules - you will see the carrier often ignores their own rules and lets people on with bags far in excess of the dimensions and weights.

If they cannot get the basics sorted, they are never going to sort this so ... I think that one can only take the 'word' of whatever person you find on duty THAT DAY at THAT AIRPORT and go with it.

clareprop correctly puts it that they can do anything they want. They do and will and, consequently, confiscate tons of harmless junk every month.

clareprop

let's take the whole subject out and shoot it...

We can only do that if you can get the gun undetected through security.

I'm off to pour myself a large brandy.

[TightSlot]

Thanks everybody - think we've covered it nicely now