Sitting with kids - legal right to be adjacent ?
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Sitting with kids - legal right to be adjacent ?
Hi,
I was coming back from Istanbul on Sunday when someone with family who had been allocated some middle seats put their kids in the window seats next to them and then refused to budge. Got quite unpleasant when the guy started bullying a young woman who asked to be able to sit in (her allocated) window seat. When the cabin crew told them to move they refused and stated they had a 'legal right' to sit next to their children. They told the same thing to security when they were called on the plane.
Ultimately the CC found the woman another window seat. Then other pax gave up and sat in the familys B row seat. and the family congratulated themselves for standing up for their 'rights'
As a side point, I've seen someone thrown off the plane in Dubai for less defiance to CC, but I guess it was the most pratical solution to avoid missing the slot.
My question is can any CC confirm if this is really the case that the pax has a 'legal right'; to be seated next to their kids ?? I would be surprised, as have often had to have the little dears in front of me on full flights.
I was coming back from Istanbul on Sunday when someone with family who had been allocated some middle seats put their kids in the window seats next to them and then refused to budge. Got quite unpleasant when the guy started bullying a young woman who asked to be able to sit in (her allocated) window seat. When the cabin crew told them to move they refused and stated they had a 'legal right' to sit next to their children. They told the same thing to security when they were called on the plane.
Ultimately the CC found the woman another window seat. Then other pax gave up and sat in the familys B row seat. and the family congratulated themselves for standing up for their 'rights'
As a side point, I've seen someone thrown off the plane in Dubai for less defiance to CC, but I guess it was the most pratical solution to avoid missing the slot. My question is can any CC confirm if this is really the case that the pax has a 'legal right'; to be seated next to their kids ?? I would be surprised, as have often had to have the little dears in front of me on full flights.
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I think some parents should be forced to sit in front of their own kids, so they can themselves suffer the constant seat-back kicking that many seem prone to. Instead of other passengers who have a moral, if not legal right to be left in peace.
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ok, to start off with, i do not exactly know what the answer is as i do not work on the airlines, however i understand that it is only a 'reccomendation', not a requirement, but i stand to be corrected.
however what i do find disgusting is the fact that this guy just 'plonked' his child there without asking first. i wonder where the child was originally due to sit, and was this done just because the kid wanted a window seat?
if he was indeed allocated away, then why did they not sit the child in their allocated seat and then sit next to them. or was the child traveling with both parents, and preferred to sit next to the parent that then gave a window seat?
however what i do find disgusting is the fact that this guy just 'plonked' his child there without asking first. i wonder where the child was originally due to sit, and was this done just because the kid wanted a window seat?
if he was indeed allocated away, then why did they not sit the child in their allocated seat and then sit next to them. or was the child traveling with both parents, and preferred to sit next to the parent that then gave a window seat?
Can understand as a parent the fear that if the child is seated elsewhere they would think they are under threat..........however stats show a child is more at risk from own family than anywhere else.
I know once flying in the US from IAD to PHX just after 9/11 I got called and asked if i minded my seat being changed to allocate a family sitting together. I told gate crew it was cool and I would have been most upset if they hadn't changed me as family should be together, got upgraded for saying this which I hadn't been seeking.
I think person was ignorant as most people will try and be accomodating.
Its not a legal right as if you want it then book business / first.
IF you want to have seats allocated together then get there early or with LCs pay for priority.
I know once flying in the US from IAD to PHX just after 9/11 I got called and asked if i minded my seat being changed to allocate a family sitting together. I told gate crew it was cool and I would have been most upset if they hadn't changed me as family should be together, got upgraded for saying this which I hadn't been seeking.
I think person was ignorant as most people will try and be accomodating.
Its not a legal right as if you want it then book business / first.
IF you want to have seats allocated together then get there early or with LCs pay for priority.
The child's age is not mentioned. I would say that it is not good policy to seperate a young child from both parents and I would understand the mother's concern (not to mention the child him/herselt too). If they checked in late, they should have been told to bring the problem to the attention of the F/A on entering the a/c. I'm sure that things could have been sorted out in a more pleasant way. Then again, some nationalities prefer to shout rather than listen and reason (I refer to the parents of course).
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OK IanP100 I am CC and also a parent.....views from different perspectives here as I know the challenges here from all sides 
Firstly you state you were travelling back from Istanbul......was this on a UK registered carrier governed by CAA regulations or in this case "guidelines"?
The CAA "guidlines" re children sitting next to parents are clearly stated on the CAA website right down to whether it's a narrow/wide bodied jet and how far the little darlings can sit away from them. If the carrier is registered in another country they may well have different rules/guidlines and unfortunately you might well have just had to put up with them....sorry
The key word here is "guidlines" in the UK anyway. The CAA issue these to airlines and no airline/CC in their right mind ignores the CAA. Some airlines enforce these rigourously as "regulations" because it suits them for the majority of the time in relation to their pax profile.....eg VS to MCO. My partner and I got £100 worth of duty free to sit seperately so a family could sit together......so did a lot of others!!
Others try and follow the guidlines to the best of their ability and the circumstances on the day.
In my operation the overiding considerations here would be the following:
What the CAA don't adress is how does a 3 year old manage his/her food/drink or loo trips safely/without supervision. They need their parents. Most Pax recognise this and will accomodate
I can't answer your question here re "legal right" as I don't know the carrier or country of registration. In the UK I do know there are no legal rights afforded to the pax in this situation. Safety takes priority and the CC enforce that according to their own airlines policy/CAA guidlines and their judgement on the day
This family could also have pre booked their seats on line, got to the gate early etc to ensure a window seat......I think they were abusing the system personally on this occasion.
Firstly you state you were travelling back from Istanbul......was this on a UK registered carrier governed by CAA regulations or in this case "guidelines"?
The CAA "guidlines" re children sitting next to parents are clearly stated on the CAA website right down to whether it's a narrow/wide bodied jet and how far the little darlings can sit away from them. If the carrier is registered in another country they may well have different rules/guidlines and unfortunately you might well have just had to put up with them....sorry
The key word here is "guidlines" in the UK anyway. The CAA issue these to airlines and no airline/CC in their right mind ignores the CAA. Some airlines enforce these rigourously as "regulations" because it suits them for the majority of the time in relation to their pax profile.....eg VS to MCO. My partner and I got £100 worth of duty free to sit seperately so a family could sit together......so did a lot of others!!
Others try and follow the guidlines to the best of their ability and the circumstances on the day.
In my operation the overiding considerations here would be the following:
- The oxygen mask configuration on the seat rows on this particular flight.....you do not mention the aircraft type and even on type configurations can vary but safety would always take priority;
- Whether there are infants under the age of 2 years where the above needs to be considered,
- The ages of the children concerned and the particular carriers policy on this. In the UK most carriers do not allow minors under the age of 12-14 to travel without the supervision of someone 16 years or older. The younger the child the more vulnerable they are.
What the CAA don't adress is how does a 3 year old manage his/her food/drink or loo trips safely/without supervision. They need their parents. Most Pax recognise this and will accomodate
I can't answer your question here re "legal right" as I don't know the carrier or country of registration. In the UK I do know there are no legal rights afforded to the pax in this situation. Safety takes priority and the CC enforce that according to their own airlines policy/CAA guidlines and their judgement on the day
This family could also have pre booked their seats on line, got to the gate early etc to ensure a window seat......I think they were abusing the system personally on this occasion.
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Thanks
Lowcostdolly, thanks for the comprehensive and interesting reply. There's never a simple answer in this case I guess, but as you imply its unlikely that any jurisdiction puts an individuals 'rights' higher than the safe running of the flight, under the control of the crew.
For the record it was a Turkish Airlines flight to Amsterdam, so I guess under Turkish Duristriction. The PAX were Dutch, who are never generally slow to assert their view of their rights and opinions.
For the record it was a Turkish Airlines flight to Amsterdam, so I guess under Turkish Duristriction. The PAX were Dutch, who are never generally slow to assert their view of their rights and opinions.
Low cost airlines
I have been on some low cost airlines where there is no attempt by check-in staff or CC to sit families next to each other or even nearby. Full service airlines seem to have a better idea of what people want.
With Easyjet how do they cope with children under two if there is unallocated seating?
With Easyjet how do they cope with children under two if there is unallocated seating?
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Sounds to me as if they would have made it a lot easier for everyone if they had simply asked in a polite way, instead of just taking an other passenger's seat.
I would be cross if something like this happened to me, whereas I normally don't care about moving to an other seat if that means children can be seated with their parents. Think it's only polite to ask first!
I would be cross if something like this happened to me, whereas I normally don't care about moving to an other seat if that means children can be seated with their parents. Think it's only polite to ask first!
Last edited by Moira; 30th Oct 2009 at 18:00.
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Actually, children under two are the easiest to deal with, as they sit on the parent's lap and do not need a seat of their own. EasyJet boards (or should board anyway) families with children aged 5 or less first. That age used to be higher but was changed because allegedly "large families took advantage of the system".
I hardly ever have a problem putting families together, even when 80% of pax are families If the kids are around ten or older, I don't think anyone has a problem with sitting a few rows apart. Actually, they seem to quiet enjoy sitting away from parents.
Hope this answers a few questions.
B
I hardly ever have a problem putting families together, even when 80% of pax are families If the kids are around ten or older, I don't think anyone has a problem with sitting a few rows apart. Actually, they seem to quiet enjoy sitting away from parents.
Hope this answers a few questions.
B
I have been on some low cost airlines where there is no attempt by check-in staff or CC to sit families next to each other or even nearby.
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Perhaps it is wiser to suspend judgment without knowing the facts.
For all we know, the family may have pre-reserved seats that were then lost due to a configuration change, e.g. late C class bookings.
I find it difficult to condemn parents for taking steps to protect his kids, as others have said, who would look after them in an emergency?
Being polite is typically British, but not always a great tactic for survival as a couple of press articels argue
Dying of politeness: British don't like to bother the doctor
Daily Express | Odd News :: British Titanic victims too polite
As to the Dutch standing up for their rights, historically as a nation they have always been quick to give others rights, too.
For all we know, the family may have pre-reserved seats that were then lost due to a configuration change, e.g. late C class bookings.
I find it difficult to condemn parents for taking steps to protect his kids, as others have said, who would look after them in an emergency?
Being polite is typically British, but not always a great tactic for survival as a couple of press articels argue
Dying of politeness: British don't like to bother the doctor
Daily Express | Odd News :: British Titanic victims too polite
As to the Dutch standing up for their rights, historically as a nation they have always been quick to give others rights, too.
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I know this is going to sound harsh to CC, who have not created the problem, but this is my solution.
If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.
And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.
I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.
If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.
And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.
I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.
Last edited by MidmarMile; 28th Oct 2009 at 06:41. Reason: spelling correction
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Having not been there it is difficult to judge any single person who contributed to the situation escalating to the point where security was required. As we now know, the airline in question was Turkish so their rules/guidelines may well be different, which would obviously reflect how the situation was handled.
CAA regulated Cabin crew face this problem on a daily basis and whilst at times it can be torturous and extremely time consuming to rectify, the seating of young children with their adult guardian always gets resolved without the need for security or a stand off. Generally the length of flight determines the level of resistance some passengers offer the cabin crew as to whether or nor they will move seats to accommodate a family. The experience of the crew knowing when to move on to someone else and effectively move to plan 'B' is what generally counts.
Of course making a slot can also determine how wide spread the 'problem' becomes. Usually all efforts to resolve the issue with immediate persons affected or those close by are best. I have at times, had to make a PA to the whole a/c or cabin on wide bodies and explain the situation and request help.
In my mind and certainly if this situation was on a CAA regulated a/c, the calling of security would have been, to a degree, due to a failure of the cabin crew in handling the incident. Of course there are always exceptions to that and sometimes no one can control an incident.
6
CAA regulated Cabin crew face this problem on a daily basis and whilst at times it can be torturous and extremely time consuming to rectify, the seating of young children with their adult guardian always gets resolved without the need for security or a stand off. Generally the length of flight determines the level of resistance some passengers offer the cabin crew as to whether or nor they will move seats to accommodate a family. The experience of the crew knowing when to move on to someone else and effectively move to plan 'B' is what generally counts.
Of course making a slot can also determine how wide spread the 'problem' becomes. Usually all efforts to resolve the issue with immediate persons affected or those close by are best. I have at times, had to make a PA to the whole a/c or cabin on wide bodies and explain the situation and request help.
In my mind and certainly if this situation was on a CAA regulated a/c, the calling of security would have been, to a degree, due to a failure of the cabin crew in handling the incident. Of course there are always exceptions to that and sometimes no one can control an incident.
6
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Somewhat at a tangent, but none the less...
Some time ago I was on an Easyjet flight. Unusually I was at the head of the queue, but waited whilst those 'requiring extra time to board' and with kids got on first. When the rest of us then got on board I started to head for the over wing exit row (I'm 6'2") but was a little disappointed to see that the mum with two young boys (5/6ish I guess) who boarded first were heading for the same seats. I wasn't sure that a 5'2" adult with two small children were going to feel the benefit of the exit row as much as I was. Anyway, I needn't have given it a thought as the stewardess (politely) said they couldn't sit at the exit row and so moved them on whilst I pitched up and enjoyed the legroom.
Some time ago I was on an Easyjet flight. Unusually I was at the head of the queue, but waited whilst those 'requiring extra time to board' and with kids got on first. When the rest of us then got on board I started to head for the over wing exit row (I'm 6'2") but was a little disappointed to see that the mum with two young boys (5/6ish I guess) who boarded first were heading for the same seats. I wasn't sure that a 5'2" adult with two small children were going to feel the benefit of the exit row as much as I was. Anyway, I needn't have given it a thought as the stewardess (politely) said they couldn't sit at the exit row and so moved them on whilst I pitched up and enjoyed the legroom.
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I know this is going to sound harsh to CC, who have not created the problem, but this is my solution.
If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.
And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.
I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.
If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.
And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.
I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.
Speaking for BA, we will always do our best to seat children under 12 next to at least one parent, providing the family turns up with sufficient time for us to be able to do something. Pitching up at check-in 46 mins before departure, with the flight about to close, doesn't exactly give us much scope.
We may not do anything at the check in stage, but if the Flight Monitor looking after the flight in the back office is alerted, he or she will usually have something sorted out by the time boarding starts. Throwing a wobbler at the check in desk or refusing to go through security will achieve nothing - except get the family taken off the flight for failing to present themselves to security in time!
While you're on the subject of "contracts", how is the airline expected to know that they're dealing with a "family" when four people turn up with four different surnames on four different bookings? It happens!
I have to say, a lot of how passengers are treated by airlines is down to attitude. If a passenger presents the "You've got to do something" attitude, it makes staff resentful. Far better to use the "please can you help us" approach!
Some of the "attitude" is a culture thing - "Freshies" from Asia very rarely use "please" or "thank you" and have a very abrupt way of asking for things - "Water! - Get Me Water!" Neither do Americans from the Northern States, whereas Texans go overboard with politeness! Most airline staff who have been around the track for a few years can recognise the difference between culture and plain rudeness - and there ain't no excuse for being rude, ever!
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Bealine well said and you took the words right out of my mouth re attitudes.....
I work for Loco where we do not even have allocated seating so check in would not recognise a family whatever the names anyway for seating purposes.
We have a pre boarding policy for families with children under 5 sitting together....get to the gate on time Parents and we will accomodate you. Can't manage this because you are in duty free/Burger king? Then the other really nice pax will probably help you out. If they don't want to then I will assert my authority as a SCCM and insist they do to comply with CAA "guidlines" in relation to safety because my company feel these are important.
However I will only ensure I have a minor sitting with at least one parent in the "unlikely event" of an emergency and to ensure other parental aspects.....that's because I am a parent so have empathy with these. I don't have to and the CAA do not recognise these either. All I have to ensure is the minor is looked after by an accompanying adult in the event of an emergency...end of. I may seperate you as a family because I have other considerations at this time. The slot time for example and also that the other 150 odd pax who turned up for the seats they wanted/needed.
The amount of families that are last to board on loco is significant and they seem to expect the whole seating to be arranged to accomodate them...
All we will do as CC is to ensure safety first. After that is is up to the goodwill of the other pax.
It will be different on other carriers I'm sure. Personally I don't see why if you check in in good time for allocated seating you can't sit together but I have no insight into the specific carriers procedures.
I do know that I was late once for a US airways flight......not my fault as the holiday company were responsible for my transfer. It was late because of conditions on the LA freeways. When I eventually pitched up my 8 year old was allocated a seat 30 rows away from me. She couldn't cope with this and she understood this at check in but she wanted her Mum on the flight.
US Airways were fantastic. I was upgraded for my 40 minute flight to Las Vegas to first. I didn't ask as I told them I would take the next available flight so I could be with my Daughter. They saw my daughters reaction at the time and took into account the reasons I was late and that they had available seating.
Personally I think the UK have much to learn from our US counterparts on service. On safety the guidlines/regulations are clear on this subject
I work for Loco where we do not even have allocated seating so check in would not recognise a family whatever the names anyway for seating purposes.
We have a pre boarding policy for families with children under 5 sitting together....get to the gate on time Parents and we will accomodate you
. Can't manage this because you are in duty free/Burger king? Then the other really nice pax will probably help you out. If they don't want to then I will assert my authority as a SCCM and insist they do to comply with CAA "guidlines" in relation to safety because my company feel these are important. However I will only ensure I have a minor sitting with at least one parent in the "unlikely event" of an emergency and to ensure other parental aspects.....that's because I am a parent so have empathy with these. I don't have to and the CAA do not recognise these either. All I have to ensure is the minor is looked after by an accompanying adult in the event of an emergency...end of. I may seperate you as a family because I have other considerations at this time. The slot time for example and also that the other 150 odd pax who turned up for the seats they wanted/needed.
The amount of families that are last to board on loco is significant and they seem to expect the whole seating to be arranged to accomodate them...
All we will do as CC is to ensure safety first. After that is is up to the goodwill of the other pax.It will be different on other carriers I'm sure. Personally I don't see why if you check in in good time for allocated seating you can't sit together but I have no insight into the specific carriers procedures.
I do know that I was late once for a US airways flight......not my fault as the holiday company were responsible for my transfer. It was late because of conditions on the LA freeways. When I eventually pitched up my 8 year old was allocated a seat 30 rows away from me. She couldn't cope with this and she understood this at check in but she wanted her Mum on the flight.
US Airways were fantastic. I was upgraded for my 40 minute flight to Las Vegas to first. I didn't ask as I told them I would take the next available flight so I could be with my Daughter. They saw my daughters reaction at the time and took into account the reasons I was late and that they had available seating.
Personally I think the UK have much to learn from our US counterparts on service. On safety the guidlines/regulations are clear on this subject